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Active: 1285 users

[M] Logo's Melee Map Thread

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-08 23:03:43
July 01 2010 02:23 GMT
#1
Introduction:

Yes another map thread on the forums, but you've already clicked so you can't mind that much. In my defense I was always intending on making melee maps, it's not just a beta downtime activity. So hopefully you enjoy my maps so its worthwhile for me to keep making them. Currently I have three maps (well 1 is still WIP) to showcase, but I'm going to build this thread a little differently. To allow for a good discussion and directed feedback I'm going to stagger when I add each map to this thread so people can discuss them primarily one at a time. Anyways lets get to it...

Alzadar's Bane
Status
Version 0.4 now published! Added critters, fixed broken stuff from phase 2 patching, and published! Look for Alzadar's Bane on US servers now!

Map Preview:
[image loading]
High Quality image (1024x1024)

Players: 2
Size: 124x124
All bases use standard 8/2 or 6/2 layouts

Concept
+ Show Spoiler +
The core concept of this map is found buried in the middle. Within the 'Caution' area is buried many many neutral banelings. These banelings are entirely docile and will not attack in anyway. However, the banelings still explode on death as banelings tend to do, and they still take up space. Using detection and focus fire or splash damage can bring a world of hurt to a careless player travelling through the middle of the map. Players will also not be able to build in the middle without first killing the banelings.

[image loading]
An observer makes a startling discovery

As for the remainder of the map, it follows a fairly basic layout. A straightfoward main along with a natural protected by a double ramp makes for a moderately safe 2-base play. The thirds are harder to take, but players are rewarded with a relatively close gold base. Destructible rocks block off the shortest alternate routes around the banelings and protect the watch towers. The towers themselves can see ~1/2 across the gap so controlling both is significantly more useful than controlling a single tower.

In terms of racial balance, it's really difficult to say. Without the banelings the map would hopefully be relatively balanced. The small size an closer third are tough for zerg to deal with, but the good watch towers and protected natural should help to make up for it. There's not a whole lot of cliff antics that Terran can get up to and there's plenty of room to get around force fields. The middle, when cleared, is wide open which should also fare favorably for zerg


Other Notes
I'm really hoping players are willing to give the baneling middle a shot, if nothing else then just in the interest of science. I have a lot of ideas for the use of neutral banelings; this being one of the most jarring uses. I thought it'd be best to start a little extreme and see how it goes then take it from there. If people just really do not like the banelings I may make a baneling free version of this map available so let me know.

Additional Images
[image loading]

Map Flow
Natural Ramp
Watch Tower


Map Analyzer Data
Influence Map
Rush Distances

Q&A
+ Show Spoiler +
This is pretty much to answer questions people are going to ask anyways.

What happens when someone drags the banelings to the opponent's base?
That can't happen, the banelings are 100% immobile seeing as they are buried

Can I build in the middle?
As long as you clear some area of the banelings, yes you can.

Isn't your map going to kill all aggression and be newb-like?
No, I don't think so. Since the banelings need some motivation to do anything, like splash damage or target fire, units are free to move across them in most situations. What I expect the banelings to do mostly is spice up gameplay with some antics as well as increase the time it takes for less mobile armies to get in position to attack.

There's too many banelings!
I'm not sure what the right density of banelings is, I'll need the beta to come back to test that out. Your feedback on the matter is quite welcome though.

Where's the download link?
I'm still putting finishing touches on the map, mostly a map splash screen, so no download link yet. There's a good chance I'll try and get it published in phase 2 then throw up the download link, but we'll see.

I hate you for your choice in tileset!
Me too... me too. Actually I brightened up the lighting so it's not quite as drab as the default. Still... I'm sorry.
Logo
dimfish
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States663 Posts
July 01 2010 02:31 GMT
#2
Neat concept! Also, the spacing in this map is nice. The contested expos are in tight, cliffy areas while the direct route between mains is wide open, if not bling mined.

Solid. The main+nat do look easy to defend, but as on any map too much defense gives the other player space to take the other expos.
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
July 01 2010 02:44 GMT
#3
This is very creative - I like it!

-the nats have no harassment cliffs.
-wasted space between the nats and golds.
-high yield expansions should have 6 crystals 7=too many.

That's all I jave to other on criticism because this map is so awesome!
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
July 01 2010 02:45 GMT
#4
if u mind control a neutral baneling and set it to auto unborrow (right click unburrow) like a proximity mine and then un-mind control it, will it still be an active mine?
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-01 03:21:35
July 01 2010 03:18 GMT
#5
There's actually only 6 per high yield expo. The image makes it look like 7, but it's actually only 6. The space between the nats and golds is for proxy cheese and reverse cliff dropping. A siege tank down there can, with vision, fire up on the base. You can fire back from up above, but that's hardly an ideal situation. For proxying, your probe scout won't get vision of that area unless you specifically tell them to head over there. It's not the most vital piece of terrain, but having it as pathable ground definitely has it's reasons

As for the banelings... right now you can't mind control them because they are neutral rather than hostile. Likewise fungal growth does not affect the banelings, but storm will. I can change them to hostile which means they can be mind controlled and vulnerable to fungal growth, but it also means they're target priorities in battles rather than having to be manually targeted, provided you can see them at least. I don't think the trade-off is worth it. It'd also be really frustrating if you try to move out with a detector as your units, including your melee units, would auto-target the hostile banelings given the chance.
Logo
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
July 01 2010 03:25 GMT
#6
Ah, I see.
Hmm...
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
July 01 2010 03:36 GMT
#7
Out of curiosity I tested the situation you mentioned. One of two things happens.

1. A hostile unit (including other hostile burrowed banelings) nearby causes the auto-unburrow to go off immediately when you click it.
2. You let go of the NP and nothing happens, the burrowed baneling acts the same way. Letting go clears the auto-cast of unburrow.

Either way I'd just recommend that you just pop out a few banelings of your own and bury them in the mix. It's much cheaper and the results are... explosive... to say the least.
Logo
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
July 01 2010 03:39 GMT
#8
Okay just curious to see if that would work because that would be funny!
That's interesting though.
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
July 01 2010 03:39 GMT
#9
I really like your map, nice job.
I wish I had the editor >.<
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
July 02 2010 17:37 GMT
#10
I've updated the original post with some additional high resolution screenshots. Thanks for the positive feedbacks guys, I'd love to hear what more people think though!
Logo
Peekay.switch
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada285 Posts
July 02 2010 19:40 GMT
#11
Really cool looking map, I'd definitely try it.
789
Profile Joined October 2009
United States959 Posts
July 02 2010 19:54 GMT
#12
While I think the neutral banelings is a really cool concept, I worry about the power of AOE in the middle of the map. Imagine using psi storm on a clump of units not only to damage them, but blow up a pack of banelings as well. Fungal growth (though I'm honestly not sure if it can target burrowed units or not ... never tested it) would be pretty hilarious as well ... cast it and snare the enemy units on top of the banelings ... then banelings go boom. So on the topic of density of banelings, I think less dense would be the way to go. So that you can only blow up say 1 or 2 banelings in your aoe attacks.

As for the rest of the map, the main and natural just look so large to me. It looks like the space the main takes up could almost be both the main and the natural.

I also feel like there could be another base for each side somewhere. Maybe condense the main and nat down a bit and squeeze in a third base kulas ravine/steppes of war style.
Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk Cafe! He's the next Jaedong, baby!
dimfish
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States663 Posts
July 02 2010 20:12 GMT
#13
On July 03 2010 04:54 789 wrote:
So that you can only blow up say 1 or 2 banelings in your aoe attacks.


I respectfully disagree. Let me start by saying I do agree that map features shouldn't completely turn play dynamics on their head.

In this case, though, Logo is adding the baneling element to create a potential and localized danger that should have a palpable effect on, say, AoE attacks! You know, I know, so we going into the game thinking "man, AoE is dangerous in the middle, I should use it myself and watch for opponent tech that could trigger it on me!"

You have the option of taking the long side bypass routes, or knocking down the d-rock for a shoter bypass route as well.

I say keep it dangerous to start, and after some real play-testing maybe there will be data to say it should be toned down.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
July 03 2010 02:42 GMT
#14
Dimfish has it right. The reason I want them to be dense is to cause a more jarring game experience to the players. With this neutral use of Banelings I wanted them to be a bit extreme as a map feature rather than something a little less opposing. I figure this way players can have something a little offbeat to play on while also showing how this type of feature affects balance. From this map, future ones can make use of neutral Banelings in a more informed manner.

About the mains, the main is roughly the size of the main in Blistering Sands. Just like BS it's biggish for a main, but I wanted it that way. Generally a map layout like this is very linear, ala Steppes of War, which is notoriously tough for Zerg ZvT because they don't have as much chance for mobility or flanking against Terran. It's possible the Banelings change that, but my insurance on the matter is the larger end Main. With the main this size it's obviously a little more vulnerable to drops, harass, and Nydus worms than say the main in Steppes of War.

Logo
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
July 08 2010 23:04 GMT
#15
Yay phase 2! I've published my map on the US server (Alzadar's Bane) so play away and if you get a game in I'd love to see the replay or spectate. Feel free to add me ( Logo 782 ) if you're interested in trying to get a game going.

Enjoy!
Logo
CagedMind
Profile Joined February 2010
United States506 Posts
July 11 2010 22:03 GMT
#16
Love the concept.
your micro has been depleted
RoieTRS
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States2569 Posts
August 07 2010 08:01 GMT
#17
If I attack moved and I had detection of the banelings, will I kill the banelings? If that is true then it would be annoying if enemies came and you are killing banelings and not enemy units. It would also be annoying if you could not attackmove to kill banelings to clear out large areas.
konadora, in Racenilatr's blog: "you need to stop thinking about starcraft or anything computer-related for that matter. It's becoming a bad addiction imo"
Pyrrhuloxia
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States6700 Posts
August 07 2010 09:54 GMT
#18
On August 07 2010 17:01 RoieTRS wrote:
If I attack moved and I had detection of the banelings, will I kill the banelings? If that is true then it would be annoying if enemies came and you are killing banelings and not enemy units. It would also be annoying if you could not attackmove to kill banelings to clear out large areas.

Nice bump?

Also, if you attack move at a panda bear guy, will you kill it? No, because it is a neutral unit. So you can't clear them out with attack move. You can queue up a bunch of attack orders, thoug.
Pyrrhuloxia
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States6700 Posts
August 07 2010 09:55 GMT
#19
I wanna see some vods of this map, actually. Seems cool.
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