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Alright, so beta has been out for a while and things feel, for the most part, pretty balanced. However, it is at the high-end level of play that slight imbalances really show, and I think it is safe to say now that zerg is the strongest of the three races.
1) SPAWN LARVA
There are many reasons for why this may be true, but I think it mostly revolves around one core mechanic - spawn larva.
This ability makes the zerg an economical oppurtunist. The zerg have the potential to make workers at multiple times the rate of terran or protoss. If a skilled player is using the zerg, he will know exactly when it is safe to abuse the seemingly limitless larvae to produce mass amounts of workers. If he keeps an eye on the opponent, he will know exactly when to spawn units with his mass reserves of larva, and they will be counter units to the opposing army. In the hands of a skilled player, this can all be done safely.
So to this mechanic, here is a simple proposed change: Make spawn larva only spawn 3 additional larva instead of 4. (Possibly lower, but I'm not going to push it.)
This seems like a reasonable nerf to the zerg's huge macro power, forcing them to either create more hatcheries, which in turn require more queens, or just slowing down their economy in general, making them play a more economically balanced and more strategic, less mind-less(omg spam units - hes coming), game.
2) BANELINGS
So, now that the macro mechanic is out of the way, I want to discuss banelings, particularly relevant to ZvT. I know this has been discussed in another thread but I want to give my views on this unit. Banelings are literally the bane of the terran army. A smart zerg user, when given banelings, will always be able to massacre your marines. This is most likely done with zergling surround spam with +armor and a bunch of banelings in the mix raping the marines. And don't say terran don't need marines, because they do. A smart zerg will ignore units like marauders, or flank, so those are not viable excuses.
The best change, imo, would be to greatly reduce the splash radius of banelings. Right now it seems that 1 baneling hitting my group of marines kills about 4 of them, which is pretty rediculous. This may be an exaggeration but I think we get the point, and the radius being reduced would help this problem.
Another options is allowing for overkill. Overkill would still make banelings almost just as effective in the hands of a skilled micro-oriented zerg player.
Finally, we have the boring reduce-damaged change. Reduced damage would require more banelings to die in order for more marines to die. This would help balance things up a bit.
I don't think (though I can't really say so myself) that banelings are used to much extent in ZvP, but these changes would probably be balanced in that regard also.
3) THE ROACHES
This is not really a "balance issue" per say, but now I want to move on to a problem emphasized in ZvZ, and this problem is centralized around roaches. Most zerg users complain of the mundane, tedious MU that is ZvZ. In this MU one thing is apparent: Roaches Rule. In my opinion there is one main reason for this: The zerg do not have a specialized anti-armor-type unit like both the protoss(immortals) and terran(marauder).
At first glance of this change people may think, "Omg don't even get me started, now you're going to make zerg even more OP by giving them armor-piercing units", but in reality, this may make zerg more balanced in all matchups. First lets talk about how this change would affect ZvZ.
Let me illustrate with an example. In ZvP, what's to stop the zerg from massing roaches all game? The answer to that is simple: the hard counter immortals, silly. Why can't zerg spam roaches against the terran all day? Marauders. Why can't zerg spam roaches against zerg all day? oh shit.. they can. The solutions is simple: the zerg need a new unit. This unit must be higher on the tech tree than the roach(obviously), allowing the roach to still be a viable opening. Just by thinking about it, adding this unit would diversify ZvZ so much that it makes my head hurt. I think that's pretty good justification. Armies would have to be mixed, many more timings would be introduced, sometimes hard-counters really are good solutions, and this is seen in the greater diversification in both ZvP and ZvT.
I don't think it would affect the other MUs too much, especially if this new unit was a dedicated ground-only unit which was also an armored-type unit. Who knows, it can even be a melee unit. VS terran it would probably not affect the MU much, as it could be potentially strong(and weak) against marauders but weak against marines. VS Protoss it would be both equally strong and weak against armored units also, making the 2 foreign matchups balanced, but totally diversifying ZvZ (as roaches are armored but do not have an armored-piercing attack like toss and terran). I'm just throwing the solution out there, and leaving the polishing to future brainstorming.
That's all I can think of for now, I may add more later as I think of it. Tell me your views on these changes.
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Just suggestion:
You have described only 1st tier units. Please, provide information on late units I think there are more imbalances. For example: HSM, Colossus, Broodlords. I believe in TvZ zerg can do nothing against HSM.
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On March 20 2010 05:25 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Just suggestion:
You have described only 1st tier units. Please, provide information on late units I think there are more imbalances. For example: HSM, Colossus, Broodlords. I believe in TvZ zerg can do nothing against HSM.
I could write pages and pages, but these are the only balance changes I particularly feel like talking about at this time, and that stand out to me. I may add more later. Thanks for the suggestion.
Note: please don't make this a discussion about HSM, stay on topic please (mostly to the poster below).
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On March 20 2010 05:25 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Just suggestion:
You have described only 1st tier units. Please, provide information on late units I think there are more imbalances. For example: HSM, Colossus, Broodlords. I believe in TvZ zerg can do nothing against HSM.
Learn to dodge. HSM is vastly overrated.
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I like the idea of making an anti-armored unit for zerg.
The rest is fine imo.
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I really don't think battle charasteristics of baneling should be nerfed. Better option is to make it hard to get. Increase cost or build time. Say terran and zerg clashed in the middle and terran usually does not have enough time to get sufficient forces after the battle. Nerfing build time also delays banelings, and zerg won't control the map very fast.
In terms, of cost effectiveness terrans have very good units. If you nerf banelings they simply become useless. And we will end up with unbeatable terran mmm ball.
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On March 20 2010 05:29 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 05:25 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Just suggestion:
You have described only 1st tier units. Please, provide information on late units I think there are more imbalances. For example: HSM, Colossus, Broodlords. I believe in TvZ zerg can do nothing against HSM. Learn to dodge. HSM is vastly overrated.
Drop the stupid comments.
You could write 'learn to rush faster' if any terran complains about Broodlords.
And check other thread, a proper abuse of HSM makes it unavoidable.
As on topic, its another 'NERF ZERG OMG' Thread, and all of those points were already touched in the numerous topics on the forum.
Whast the point of yet another same thread?
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On March 20 2010 05:22 JTPROG wrote:
3) THE ROACHES
This is not really a "balance issue" per say, but now I want to move on to a problem emphasized in ZvZ, and this problem is centralized around roaches. Most zerg users complain of the mundane, tedious MU that is ZvZ. In this MU one thing is apparent: Roaches Rule. In my opinion there is one main reason for this: The zerg do not have a specialized anti-armor-type unit like both the protoss(immortals) and terran(marauder).
At first glance of this change people may think, "Omg don't even get me started, now you're going to make zerg even more OP by giving them armor-piercing units", but in reality, this may make zerg more balanced in all matchups. First lets talk about how this change would affect ZvZ.
Let me illustrate with an example. In ZvP, what's to stop the zerg from massing roaches all game? The answer to that is simple: the hard counter immortals, silly. Why can't zerg spam roaches against the terran all day? Marauders. Why can't zerg spam roaches against zerg all day? oh shit.. they can. The solutions is simple: the zerg need a new unit. This unit must be higher on the tech tree than the roach(obviously), allowing the roach to still be a viable opening. Just by thinking about it, adding this unit would diversify ZvZ so much that it makes my head hurt. I think that's pretty good justification. Armies would have to be mixed, many more timings would be introduced, sometimes hard-counters really are good solutions, and this is seen in the greater diversification in both ZvP and ZvT.
I don't think it would affect the other MUs too much, especially if this new unit was a dedicated ground-only unit which was also an armored-type unit. Who knows, it can even be a melee unit. VS terran it would probably not affect the MU much, as it could be potentially strong(and weak) against marauders but weak against marines. VS Protoss it would be both equally strong and weak against armored units also, making the 2 foreign matchups balanced, but totally diversifying ZvZ (as roaches are armored but do not have an armored-piercing attack like toss and terran). I'm just throwing the solution out there, and leaving the polishing to future brainstorming.
The problem with ZvZ isn't only roaches. Roaches can't attack air, so mutas/brood lords counter them pretty well. But you can't use mutas or brood lords in ZvZ, because of hydras. And zerg have banelings for anti-light units, but roaches counter them very well. That's usually why most ZvZ are roach -> hydra from both sides.
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On March 20 2010 05:52 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 05:29 Odds wrote:On March 20 2010 05:25 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Just suggestion:
You have described only 1st tier units. Please, provide information on late units I think there are more imbalances. For example: HSM, Colossus, Broodlords. I believe in TvZ zerg can do nothing against HSM. Learn to dodge. HSM is vastly overrated. Drop the stupid comments. You could write 'learn to rush faster' if any terran complains about Broodlords. And check other thread, a proper abuse of HSM makes it unavoidable. As on topic, its another 'NERF ZERG OMG' Thread, and all of those points were already touched in the numerous topics on the forum. Whast the point of yet another same thread?
I agree.
Anyway dodging HSM is the same thing as dodging banelings.
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I think doubling queen build time would be interesting and make it not so automatically better than a second hatchery. Double build time = same as hatchery build time; then comparing queen to hatchery you get a similar production boost that's much more fragile and can't give you another resource drop-off point, and it costs less.
I'm not sure Z is too powerful, but I'd like to see hatchery vs queen be a more interesting decision than it currently is.
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As for roaches in zvz, you just need to make a unit that wins vs roaches and doesn't get hilariously splattered by hydras like mutalisks do.
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On March 20 2010 05:22 JTPROG wrote:
The solutions is simple: the zerg need a new unit. This unit must be higher on the tech tree than the roach(obviously), allowing the roach to still be a viable opening. Just by thinking about it, adding this unit would diversify ZvZ so much that it makes my head hurt. I think that's pretty good justification. Armies would have to be mixed, many more timings would be introduced, sometimes hard-counters really are good solutions, and this is seen in the greater diversification in both ZvP and ZvT.
lol, did you know we can make hyrdalisks? i walk all over zergs who only make roaches. late game battles with 20+ units you had better mix in hydras if you want to win.
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Tbh redo Z, tons of people are shouting OP, despite that it has been shown every damn unit has a hardcounter. On top of that, Z are commenting how dull the gameplay is as its only a choice between mutas hydras or mass roaches.
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i agree that the ZvZ matchup is totally mundane, but do not agree at all with 1 & 2
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It can get kinda booring if the T goes for bio with MM and zerg goes banelings/lings/hydra, Its just chaos really and you cant really micro good at all except for hit and run. If the banelings get into the MM its insta death of the entire army.
I also want to mention that HSM is super late tech and cost alot of energy/money so It should be good compared to banelings that cost nothing
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What's really the problem. The fact that banelings counter a tier 1 unit well or the fact that terran rely solely on a tier 1 unit all game long.
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On March 20 2010 06:07 wayreth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 05:22 JTPROG wrote:
The solutions is simple: the zerg need a new unit. This unit must be higher on the tech tree than the roach(obviously), allowing the roach to still be a viable opening. Just by thinking about it, adding this unit would diversify ZvZ so much that it makes my head hurt. I think that's pretty good justification. Armies would have to be mixed, many more timings would be introduced, sometimes hard-counters really are good solutions, and this is seen in the greater diversification in both ZvP and ZvT.
lol, did you know we can make hyrdalisks? i walk all over zergs who only make roaches. late game battles with 20+ units you had better mix in hydras if you want to win.
Well if you are walking all over Roach users probably you have been playing against bad players. I would have to say that Hydralisks may seem to be a good counter to Roaches, but under circumstances they will lose horribly to Roaches. I just played a game today where Roaches > Roaches + Hydra (and I mean Roach/Hydra 40-50 population higher) so you might want to look into that.
To the OP: 3 spawn larva looks like a good fix. Banelings should change so that they cause damage ONLY when they attack their target, not when they are destroyed. ZvZ is fine.
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Attica United States. March 20 2010 08:02. Posts 12 PM Profile Quote
What's really the problem. The fact that banelings counter a tier 1 unit well or the fact that terran rely solely on a tier 1 unit all game long.
Exactly, this is perfect. banelings are not overpowered, use tanks and other units that ARE NOT tier one... I watch my friend play and play a few times and tanks definitely work against banelings. Otherwise the only other option a zerg player has is broodlords and if you need broodlords to beat a tier 1 unit something's wrong
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I don't agree with any of your ideas by the way
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On March 20 2010 08:27 jakel wrote:Show nested quote + Attica United States. March 20 2010 08:02. Posts 12 PM Profile Quote
What's really the problem. The fact that banelings counter a tier 1 unit well or the fact that terran rely solely on a tier 1 unit all game long. Exactly, this is perfect. banelings are not overpowered, use tanks and other units that ARE NOT tier one... I watch my friend play and play a few times and tanks definitely work against banelings. Otherwise the only other option a zerg player has is broodlords and if you need broodlords to beat a tier 1 unit something's wrong
Great idea man! My tanks pwn those mutalisks so hard! And don't say having both will help a ton with baneling/zergling mix, cause it really doesn't. Not to mention you'd prob get raped cause you wouldn't have enough marines. Please post intelligently.
And I wouldn't expect you to agree with any of my ideas, it seems you don't have much game-sense.
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good positioning with your army u will not face a flank of banelings, they are slow and low hp they just evaporate if countered properly. and at the top ranks they are mostly protoss players anyways, the game just came out, people need to figure out new builds to counter others, and not bash on balancing the game just because they dont understand the mechanics.
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EPT
