|
On March 20 2010 22:29 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 21:46 Rucky wrote:
wow...this thread is so fail. i keep trying to add constructive stuff in here and then a bunch of ********** posts clutters the rest of it. i won't add insights anymore...i feel like everybody who actually understands this stuff left sc2 forum for good.
have fun whoever is left I appreciate posts like yours, instead of people who are SOMEHOW claiming I am WHINING? rofl. Yes, I really personally care that zerg is OP and am whining by making all these insightful suggestions and not once saying anything relatively close to a complaint. Then there are people like this (and I hate to say it cause i'm 100% Polish also). Show nested quote +[B]March 20 2010 18:06. Defrag Poland. Wrote:[B]
No replays
No solid evidence
Not even giving his current division/rank so we know if he is competent player.
Another whine thread about zerg, with ALL three points being extensively discussed in other threads.
Why is this not closed ;(
While I have my league, division, AND rank in my sig. Nice one there man. Everyone: this is NOT a whine thread. Anyone with half a brain will see that as apparent. These are well thought-out balance suggestions based off logical theorycrafting from evidence seen in the current game. All of the top players will agree zerg macro mechanic with larva is overpowered. Banelings ARE a problem right now. And the zerg unit addition is a pretty damn good idea. Please see this thread as what it's worth, and post constructively, because when you say it's a whine thread and dismiss it, it sounds like you're whining. Rucky, thanks for your posts, they were quite insightful and you seem to agree with at least some of my ideas here, seemingly mostly with the macro mechanic. Don't be discouraged by all the trash posts, they will inherently be filtered out by the good players.
Actually this thread is full of whine and makes wild claims without any backup evidence. Zerg is SO op! Thats a dumb thing to do especially within a day of a great TL article that actually gives the data clearly.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116377
Look at how OP zerg is. They definitely need a nerf. Their top US players are almost as highly rated as Terrans! We now have TL threads complaining that:
1. Zerglings are OP cause they can run through zeals
2. About 20 threads about roaches being OP
3. And now this thread and others saying banelings are OP
4. And who knows how many threads saying muta are OP.
You'd think that if lings, blings, roaches, and muta were all OP that Zerg would be winning 90% of games since those are the most commonly used units right? Then people come along and without referencing real data say, "It has been well established that Zerg is the most powerful race".
It gets old.
EDIT: Oh I forgot. Apparently infestors are OP too.
EDIT2: And how can I forget broodlords?
Apparently the only zerg units that are not OP are: corrupters, hydra, ultralisk (although I have seen some comments about ultralisk being OP as well).
I wonder why we Zerg aren't winning 90% of their games?
|
On March 20 2010 06:03 SLush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 05:52 Defrag wrote:On March 20 2010 05:29 Odds wrote:On March 20 2010 05:25 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Just suggestion:
You have described only 1st tier units. Please, provide information on late units I think there are more imbalances. For example: HSM, Colossus, Broodlords. I believe in TvZ zerg can do nothing against HSM. Learn to dodge. HSM is vastly overrated. Drop the stupid comments. You could write 'learn to rush faster' if any terran complains about Broodlords. And check other thread, a proper abuse of HSM makes it unavoidable. As on topic, its another 'NERF ZERG OMG' Thread, and all of those points were already touched in the numerous topics on the forum. Whast the point of yet another same thread? I agree. Anyway dodging HSM is the same thing as dodging banelings.
No, its totally not.
|
On March 21 2010 00:14 Savio wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 20 2010 22:29 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 21:46 Rucky wrote:
wow...this thread is so fail. i keep trying to add constructive stuff in here and then a bunch of ********** posts clutters the rest of it. i won't add insights anymore...i feel like everybody who actually understands this stuff left sc2 forum for good.
have fun whoever is left I appreciate posts like yours, instead of people who are SOMEHOW claiming I am WHINING? rofl. Yes, I really personally care that zerg is OP and am whining by making all these insightful suggestions and not once saying anything relatively close to a complaint. Then there are people like this (and I hate to say it cause i'm 100% Polish also). Show nested quote +[B]March 20 2010 18:06. Defrag Poland. Wrote:
No replays
No solid evidence
Not even giving his current division/rank so we know if he is competent player.
Another whine thread about zerg, with ALL three points being extensively discussed in other threads.
Why is this not closed ;(
While I have my league, division, AND rank in my sig. Nice one there man. Everyone: this is NOT a whine thread. Anyone with half a brain will see that as apparent. These are well thought-out balance suggestions based off logical theorycrafting from evidence seen in the current game. All of the top players will agree zerg macro mechanic with larva is overpowered. Banelings ARE a problem right now. And the zerg unit addition is a pretty damn good idea. Please see this thread as what it's worth, and post constructively, because when you say it's a whine thread and dismiss it, it sounds like you're whining. Rucky, thanks for your posts, they were quite insightful and you seem to agree with at least some of my ideas here, seemingly mostly with the macro mechanic. Don't be discouraged by all the trash posts, they will inherently be filtered out by the good players. Actually this thread is full of whine and makes wild claims without any backup evidence. Zerg is SO op! Thats a dumb thing to do especially within a day of a great TL article that actually gives the data clearly. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116377Look at how OP zerg is. They definitely need a nerf. Their top US players are almost as highly rated as Terrans! We now have TL threads complaining that: 1. Zerglings are OP cause they can run through zeals 2. About 20 threads about roaches being OP 3. And now this thread and others saying banelings are OP 4. And who knows how many threads saying muta are OP. You'd think that if lings, blings, roaches, and muta were all OP that Zerg would be winning 90% of games since those are the most commonly used units right? Then people come along and without referencing real data say, "It has been well established that Zerg is the most powerful race". It gets old. EDIT: Oh I forgot. Apparently infestors are OP too. EDIT2: And how can I forget broodlords? Apparently the only zerg units that are [b]not OP are: corrupters, hydra, ultralisk (although I have seen some comments about ultralisk being OP as well). I wonder why we Zerg aren't winning 90% of their games?
LOL that's not even a possible chart. The percentages add up to like 180% or something. The total # games won must = total # games lost. Therefore if zerg is winning 60% protoss 60% terran better be winning less than 50% cause you can't have everyone winning more than they're losing. It doesn't make sense.
I'd like to thank whoever wrote that TL article for being a complete retarded and making up statistics that other retards can use to back up bad arguments. Seriously, Zerg is broken, Protoss needs AA help, and Terran need some mech help. This is well understood by lots of top players and it's pretty evident in almost any decent game.
|
On March 21 2010 01:46 Floophead_III wrote:
LOL that's not even a possible chart. The percentages add up to like 180% or something. The total # games won must = total # games lost. Therefore if zerg is winning 60% protoss 60% terran better be winning less than 50% cause you can't have everyone winning more than they're losing. It doesn't make sense. Thanks for your bogus statistic though.
This is from a TL article, it only includes the winrates of players ranked high enough, not of all players.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116377
|
Well that makes no sense then, because what that's saying is that players who are winning are winning. Of course they are. It doesn't show anything at all.
|
Zurich15345 Posts
On March 21 2010 01:46 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 00:14 Savio wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 20 2010 22:29 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 21:46 Rucky wrote:
wow...this thread is so fail. i keep trying to add constructive stuff in here and then a bunch of ********** posts clutters the rest of it. i won't add insights anymore...i feel like everybody who actually understands this stuff left sc2 forum for good.
have fun whoever is left I appreciate posts like yours, instead of people who are SOMEHOW claiming I am WHINING? rofl. Yes, I really personally care that zerg is OP and am whining by making all these insightful suggestions and not once saying anything relatively close to a complaint. Then there are people like this (and I hate to say it cause i'm 100% Polish also). Show nested quote +[B]March 20 2010 18:06. Defrag Poland. Wrote:
No replays
No solid evidence
Not even giving his current division/rank so we know if he is competent player.
Another whine thread about zerg, with ALL three points being extensively discussed in other threads.
Why is this not closed ;(
While I have my league, division, AND rank in my sig. Nice one there man. Everyone: this is NOT a whine thread. Anyone with half a brain will see that as apparent. These are well thought-out balance suggestions based off logical theorycrafting from evidence seen in the current game. All of the top players will agree zerg macro mechanic with larva is overpowered. Banelings ARE a problem right now. And the zerg unit addition is a pretty damn good idea. Please see this thread as what it's worth, and post constructively, because when you say it's a whine thread and dismiss it, it sounds like you're whining. Rucky, thanks for your posts, they were quite insightful and you seem to agree with at least some of my ideas here, seemingly mostly with the macro mechanic. Don't be discouraged by all the trash posts, they will inherently be filtered out by the good players. Actually this thread is full of whine and makes wild claims without any backup evidence. Zerg is SO op! Thats a dumb thing to do especially within a day of a great TL article that actually gives the data clearly. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116377Look at how OP zerg is. They definitely need a nerf. Their top US players are almost as highly rated as Terrans! We now have TL threads complaining that: 1. Zerglings are OP cause they can run through zeals 2. About 20 threads about roaches being OP 3. And now this thread and others saying banelings are OP 4. And who knows how many threads saying muta are OP. You'd think that if lings, blings, roaches, and muta were all OP that Zerg would be winning 90% of games since those are the most commonly used units right? Then people come along and without referencing real data say, "It has been well established that Zerg is the most powerful race". It gets old. EDIT: Oh I forgot. Apparently infestors are OP too. EDIT2: And how can I forget broodlords? Apparently the only zerg units that are [b]not OP are: corrupters, hydra, ultralisk (although I have seen some comments about ultralisk being OP as well). I wonder why we Zerg aren't winning 90% of their games? LOL that's not even a possible chart. The percentages add up to like 180% or something. The total # games won must = total # games lost. Therefore if zerg is winning 60% protoss 60% terran better be winning less than 50% cause you can't have everyone winning more than they're losing. It doesn't make sense. I'd like to thank whoever wrote that TL article for being a complete retarded and making up statistics that other retards can use to back up bad arguments. Seriously, Zerg is broken, Protoss needs AA help, and Terran need some mech help. This is well understood by lots of top players and it's pretty evident in almost any decent game.
I'll QFT this and add it to the list of why you will soon be banned from the SC2 strategy forum.
|
Katowice25012 Posts
Hello! "A complete retarded" here, checking in. Feel free to post comments on my article if you would like to continue praising my efforts.
|
Blizzard has been, and still is playing around with the Infestor. Maybe they could be used as a decent counter to Roaches. It seems like Blizzard is already playing around this idea (Fungal Infestation now prevents units from burrowing seems to be directed towards Roaches)
Maybe instead of spitting out Infested Terrans (UGH that doesn't make any sense!), they could spit out some type of unit that does +dmg to armored. It would give the ability more of a point, and could make Infestors good against Roaches.
|
I find the charts to be really non-indicative of any balance right now. Just because they are fairly close, does not mean everyone knows how to use their race perfectly or to their potential yet. And plus this is just the win-rate of the best players? ok.. Oh - but even according to this flawed chart (when being contrasted to game balance), perhaps the Asians have discovered something, no? haha.
|
Does anybody else completely hate the roach? I'm zerg only and i cant stand these things. They made zerglings shitty. Hydras shitty. No lurkers, because fuck you, here's the most boring unit on the planet. Puke, run, puke, run, puke, run.
And while we're on it. What is it with the Muta and Hydra attack? Where is it? Am i suppose to see it? Where's the CHAAAPTUU! or the UUUAAAPSHH!? And why do Mutas fly like they are stoned? Seriously, i can actuality hear the elevator music in the background when i look at these things.
Larva inject, borrowed blings (and the little fuckers in general), ultras, great focking fun! The rest is just a shadow of it's former self...
|
Zerg vs Terran imba? I doubt so, if you look at recent results the Terrans are arguably the best race. 3/4 Terrans in PlayXP semi finals, 2/4 Terrans in CraftCup semi finals with a Terran winning, 1/4 Terrans in Zotac Cup semi finals with a Terran winning too. And vs Zerg terrans can do more than just the "MorroW" build as i will call it, since he is doing only MMM and is successful with it, like Lucifron yesterday and also Plot on today showed in PlayXP vs Check where he won with some Hellions mixed in and some awesome harassment with Hellion drops to kill Drones.
US Server stats Terrans got quite a boost too. Certainly has something to do with the last patch, and i have my doubts another patch buffing Terrans or nerfing Zergs would be justified, maybe some lesser used units can be changed with a patch, i would agree with that.
|
On March 21 2010 01:52 Floophead_III wrote:
Well that makes no sense then, because what that's saying is that players who are winning are winning. Of course they are. It doesn't show anything at all.
I do agree that everyone should enjoy the game, but not at the cost of balance. and in this case only high level, or "winning" players matter in terms of balance.
On March 21 2010 04:12 HolydaKing wrote:
Zerg vs Terran imba? I doubt so,
I agree. and IF ZvT is imbalanced, I would say its in favor of the terrans.
|
On March 19 2010 15:29 CharlieMurphy wrote:Stats currently among the top 8 ranks:51 Zerg ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png) , 32 Protoss ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png) , 52! Terran ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png) , 17 Random . #1 Leader Ranks Only: 1! Protoss , 9 Zerg , 7 Terran , 2 Random
Terran doesn't need a buff and Zerg doesn't need a nerf.
|
Banelings wouldn't be a problem if they fixed larvae :/
|
On March 20 2010 22:45 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 22:43 Kletus wrote:
I think blizzard should work on making zerg fun to play instead of just focusing on these "imbalances." Fun is subjective. Imbalance, is not.
Wrong. They are both subjective. Rock: Scissors is fine. Nerf paper.
|
On March 21 2010 03:06 JTPROG wrote:
I find the charts to be really non-indicative of any balance right now.
In all seriousness....what else could be indicative of balance?
Blizzard is doing a statistical look at the game, which is the truest way to find balance. And the results(aka the chart) show a pretty balanced game right now. That will of course change with time. We may in fact get a revolutionary gamechanging strat at some point, the equivalent of Heavy Metal Terran in SCI (for those who weren't around back then, there was a time when terrans fought toss with bio, tanks, and bunkers....now THAT was a tough matchup!)
|
On March 21 2010 16:46 Karas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 03:06 JTPROG wrote:
I find the charts to be really non-indicative of any balance right now. In all seriousness....what else could be indicative of balance? Blizzard is doing a statistical look at the game, which is the truest way to find balance. And the results(aka the chart) show a pretty balanced game right now. That will of course change with time. We may in fact get a revolutionary gamechanging strat at some point, the equivalent of Heavy Metal Terran in SCI (for those who weren't around back then, there was a time when terrans fought toss with bio, tanks, and bunkers....now THAT was a tough matchup!)
Alright, then if we play your game and say that the charts are indicative, how do you explain zerg in Asia?
|
Jaedong.
oh wa--
Not as good terrans?
|
I never said anything about zerg being OP, but that the macro mechanic for zerg could seriously be overwhelming. The problem is that zerg is not the funnest race to play as everyone can agree, even pros. If a race is not fun why would anyone play it. If all the top players are playing terran/protoss and not playing zerg yet zerg is still winning at an equal rate as terran/protoss, what is up there? The statistics show that the races are pretty balance, but right now a lot of pros are moving away from zerg and playing other races. I don't know when the statistics were taken, but if it was during this shift then it actually supports and indicates that zerg is incredibly powerful being able to match terran and protoss even with a smaller pro user base.
|
I love how zerg players cry imba on ravens when their broodlords and infestors have been destroying terran armies since day one. It's the same as a toss player crying nerf on EMP because it's easier for the terran player to micro an EMP shot than for the protoss to kill the enemy ghost. Hello, ever hear of High Templar, psi storm? Same argument could be applied there. You've been throwing those around every matchup since SC1 do you hear people crying about it? That was kinda off topic, but my point is tech units are supposed to be strong, that's what makes them worth teching to. Toss and zerg players need to man up. Terran's been fighting an uphill battle being underpowered since beta started up, they dealt with it, and found counters to seemingly imba strats. Now your turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Daigomi/hey_Win_rate.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Daigomi/hey_Average_rating.png)
![[image loading]](http://intothesunset.kilu.de/tl/sc2/random.png)
