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Hi TL!
(I am a Diamond Player with 1,4k points (rank 2 my division, almost masters league)
A few days ago I met a Terran who opening bunker into hellions into thor&tank.
How to deal with it? After seeing him opening i went for the Roachwarren and about 5 Roaches. Then i scouted 3 factories and went for Pure Roach + NP Infestor.
I thought this unit composition beats Tank/Thor.
But Roaches are actually very weak against Tanks arent they?
And I cant use NP if he spreads out his tanks so if my infestors try to reach a tank for NP they get killed by the other 5 siege tanks. Roaches obviously died aswell against it:/
I got several Questions now,
1) What is the counter unit of Zerg for Siegetanks?
A: I guess Broodlords.
2) How to deal with Siegetank contains while the Terran gets more
and more Expansions up?
A: Mutas or Roaches i thought
About the Replay and the game itself, I guess I did HUGE!! mistakes which contains:
-too less drones
-bad OL spread
-bad macro
-bad start (responding to the bunkers wayyyyy!! too late)
-too less expansions
Replay:![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-215379.jpg)
Dont be afraid of telling me my mistakes, i can only improve off of this!
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pure roach is good against pure thor, not if tanks are mixed up. generally the way to deal with tanks: attack before they siege up (creep helps a lot), attack elsewhere (if they contain, counter attack with fast units) or just have a shiton of units to overwhelm them.
also if they contain cut the reinforcement line with fast units.
late game 15+tanks you will need broods or ultras or an insanely big surface to attack,
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There is no direct way to deal with sieged up tanks by ground. They're the best ground to ground unit in the game when it comes to DPS so never attack a sieged up tank by ground unless you are like 50 food ahead. You have to counter attack, or attack when they are unsieged with a mass. Attack from different directions. Roaches are good against siege tanks because they have so much HP aswell as lings are so fast to get up to siege tanks.
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i have faced recently faced a similar strategy in low masters using broods, speedling, roach, and about 8 infestors to neural. It seems rather ineffective so id wonder about a very strong muta style play, i guess i just gotta be more bold with mutas (usually afraid to box even individual thors just cause...) This is purely theory but with the lower marine count, perhaps heavy upgraded mutas (armor first) in vast numbers with light speedling/infestor supply (id say roach/infestor but that seems way to costly)
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What I would recommend against mech play is expand like crazy, drone SUPER hard. Like 90 drones, and get tons of queens for injects. Keep up the roach infestor thing and make sure to get burrow and burrow move. Then, try as best you can to contain. Drop roaches in his main while flanking to his natural or third. Upgrade fast, all the while teching to broodlords. Also, I would recommend adding in some lings to be a little meathshield against the tanks. Besides they will splash their own tanks if the lings get in range. Also, drop infested terrans while burrowed on to the tanks. It can be very effective.
Also as a sidenote, I saw in 1 game, this guy went roach baneling and put tons and tons of banelings into ovies and dropped onto the mech. while they were moving out. (while moving, the tanks, helions, and thors will most likely be clumped) The splash made them super effective. It's like dropping on a deathball. It's not the cheapest way, but it sure will kill everything the protoss has including collossus if you have enough banelings. Good luck!
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The major weakness of siege tanks is their immobility.
Harass EVERYWHERE. Mutas, drops, hit their naturals. The siege tanks need to be together and supporting each other to be effective. All the while, you should be expanding and teching to BL's and supporting with Mutas to protect against the vikings. Mobility is your friend against tanks. Hit where he isn't. And if it comes down to it, base race him. He's too slow and hopefully you have for more bases than him.
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a cheap way is burrow move roaches next to seige tanks. or burrowed infestor and FG or infested terran. if they have detection then Broodlords + healing queens in the rear like Spanishiwa
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Tanks beat infestors, so yeah. If he has more than a few tanks, don't expect your Infestors to do much unless he gets impatient or uncareful with his Thors and lets them run up ahead of the Tanks too much (in which you can fungal or NP them without being shelled by Tanks in 1 hit).
A lot of well positioned tanks beat Roaches, but Roaches are still cost efficient, just not food efficient. But they are good enough that you can mass. With Tank/Thor composition you'll need Brood Lords like you said.
Siege Tank contains? He shouldn't be able to get one on you, unless if the map is split evenly. If he does, then there's not much you can do but mass a last hope army and try to bust through.
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In your game you were behind by around 6 workers after the initial bunker attack. You evened the count briefly, but by the time he had his third (at the gold), his advantage was about 15 workers (+mules) while your own third. So, by being so far behind in economy, it can be pretty tough to come back against a mech heavy style like that.
I remember two engagements when you attacked him using roach infestor. In the first one, you had tons of roaches and 4 infestors which you didn't use at all. I think that was a poor place to attack, as you were going deep into his territory with tanks already sieged. I think NP would have been helpful had you used it, but overall it was not a good place to attack as you lost all your roaches while already behind in economy.
The second fight, you did get 2-3 neural parasites and I think it would have been pretty good if you had a few more roaches to clean up. With neural parasites and tanks, it's actually better when the tanks are spread, as you can capture the ones on the edge without dying instantly. When the tanks are clustered together, their concentrated firepower will instantly kill infestors that go into range for NP, so it is much harder to do that. Something else that works vs tanks is the infested terran spell. If you burrow move your infestor forward and toss some eggs at his tanks, he might do splash damage to himself at the cost of some mana.
If you elect to tech to brood lords, one thing you can do is throw many spine crawlers out on your creep. Sure, he can kill them easily enough, but you had tons of minerals to spare and it slows his tank push by forcing him to siege up to kill them. This buys you more time to get the brood lords out. Since you were going to use the brood lords defensively, you can also get extra queens, as they can transfuse and defend against vikings. Infestor/queen/brood lord/spines is a very strong defensive combo
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On June 16 2011 08:20 Terminator(471) wrote:
What I would recommend against mech play is expand like crazy, drone SUPER hard. Like 90 drones, and get tons of queens for injects. Keep up the roach infestor thing and make sure to get burrow and burrow move. Then, try as best you can to contain. Drop roaches in his main while flanking to his natural or third. Upgrade fast, all the while teching to broodlords. Also, I would recommend adding in some lings to be a little meathshield against the tanks. Besides they will splash their own tanks if the lings get in range. Also, drop infested terrans while burrowed on to the tanks. It can be very effective.
Also as a sidenote, I saw in 1 game, this guy went roach baneling and put tons and tons of banelings into ovies and dropped onto the mech. while they were moving out. (while moving, the tanks, helions, and thors will most likely be clumped) The splash made them super effective. It's like dropping on a deathball. It's not the cheapest way, but it sure will kill everything the protoss has including collossus if you have enough banelings. Good luck!
Jesus, I tend to have the same problem as this guy but it sounds like your recommending you outplay the fuck out of the Terran. I'm not saying its bad advice, but I wish there was an easier solution.
Has anyone else had any luck doing drops similar to this (or more like"zealot bombs" from sc1)? AFAIK, if he only has thors for AA, the attacks won't be too effective against overlords since they're not classified as light (at least i don't think...)
Forgive the noobishness of the post if its a dumb question, I'm only Gold Division
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This will prolly get me a ban or something....
but have you tried burrow? :D
ALSO, mass mutalisks and just magic box? if hes going pure mech and no marines to support thors..... mutas are the answer honestly.
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Zylog the first engagement with the 4 infestors was very poor indeed.
First i thought the position is good because he would think i come directly into the front instead of flanking and attacking him out of the gras.
BUT he had vision into this area. AND my NP wasnt ready. and yhea as i've said i failed pretty badly due to the bunkers. i also didnt mine gas at the gold. and i never reached 60+ drones, very poor play by me there.
Someone said i should mass expand. but if he attacks me meanwhile i have no standing army and he crushes my new bases.
I also had 1k gas and minerals so i guess 10 mutas would have been nice to clean it up ( especially because i think they can deal with 1 thor)
anyway i guess Roach/Muta into broodlord/infestor is the right way to go. but only mining off of 4-6 gas doesnt work, because it is too gas intensive.
Next time i try to nydus his main and kill off the factories, he either unsieges or he pushes.
(Infested Terran should be used aswell! *remember this next time*
Thanks for the advices so far, maybe better ones will come to it.
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try suiciding some lings/roach to get the first round tank splash then run all your units in. It can help minimize losses before your units actually get to attack the siege. Always hotkey youre mutas (if you are using them) and pick off the rear siege. I hope this helps.
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mech is really easy to deal with, just get upgraded roaches and get DROP tech. Mass roach with drops work really well, with 4 geysers you can do mass roach drop with +1 and +2. you can even work in infestors at 3 base with 6 geysers up and running. I have a ton of replays against this style, maybe i'll upload.
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On June 16 2011 09:43 ChiKenSouP wrote:
This will prolly get me a ban or something....
but have you tried burrow? :D
ALSO, mass mutalisks and just magic box? if hes going pure mech and no marines to support thors..... mutas are the answer honestly.
Try not to martyr yourself.
I've recently lost to something similar and it's tough to do especially when the map is Shattered Temple; I think there is no easy solution except to drastically outplay the Terran player. Sucks, for the time being.
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The strength in mech lies within its raw power. It's weakness is its mobility. Exploit that weakness. Go for counter attacks, drops, mass expand harass style. Mech should honestly be easy to deal with unless the zerg is stubborn enough to try and break through a straight up fight.
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On June 16 2011 08:25 Zergling4life wrote:I have a very similar question! I just played a game where a Terran pushed by slowly advancing his Siege Tanks. I have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter this. I know its possible but I had no idea how. Can anyone help? Replay below and and any other tips would be rly nice! :D ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-215381.jpg)
Don't jack other peoples threads...
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pause the replay right at 15 minutes and look at your resources.
2700 minerals 1100 gas 90/164 supply.
I think that's where you should be looking. This was compounded by the fact that he canceled your 3rd with a small army you could easily kill, so if you defend your third you're better off, but still look at how to spend that money in advance. double evo? Macro hatch or double, even triple expand? Upgrades like burrow/tunnel/drops?
Against mech you can expand to 3 oclock main, even 12 oclock main, and if he tries to attack it you immediately counter with your roaches, and have the economy to replace them, or even free up supply for higher tech.
A style I've seen Ret do against mech is to beast macro and upgrade overlord drops, max on roaches and doom drop the terran main as soon as the army is out of position, then remax.
As always, when engaging tanks, you need absurd surface area to minimize splash and minimize his range advantage. In the first big engagement before NP finished, you funneled all your roaches through the narrow pass below his cliff, so that your roaches were packed in a tight ball as they reached his tanks. Try spreading into at least three groups.
i still find the best solution is to get a good scout of his base with an overseer or a speed overlord, count the factories, and immediately rush towards hive while expanding. Broodlords prevent him from pushing, and broodlord/infestor/corruptor can deal with vikings.
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On June 16 2011 07:58 Syntaxs wrote:
About the Replay and the game itself, I guess I did HUGE!! mistakes which contains:
-too less drones
-bad OL spread
-bad macro
-bad start (responding to the bunkers wayyyyy!! too late)
-too less expansions
You listed the reasons why you lost yourself, so I don't really understand what you need us for. You were down almost 15 workers+mules at times, while floating over 2k minerals.
Building anything is better then nothing, and that's your problem. Your opponent was pretty much ahead of you on macro all game long and just had more stuff. Didn't help that you morphed all your corruptors into brood lords, so he could just kill them off with his vikings.
On the specific topic, siege tanks are immobile and ground only. The ways to combat that is to mass expand, play harras, get mutas and don't attack right into them. Abuse his lack of mobility. Brood lords is pretty much the best units to straight up counter siege tanks too, since they do so much friendly damage.
In your case, you should've expanded more, relaxed your hive, gotten more gas going and gotten mutas. Mutas are great vs just thors with no marine support and your opponent had zero infrastructure to get marines up. You were just too much all over the place with too little economy. You both attacked and teched, rather then drone and secure economy, and you also skimped on spending your resources.
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EPT
