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Right now it seems at top level x2/x3 proxy pylon warpgates is the undisputed best thing to do. If the game remains like this, Blizzard will of course have to "fix" the match-up.
A problem though is that pvz/pvt top level balance is also based off of warp gate production, not normal gateway unit production (at top level).
essentially, imo, they should try to "fix" pvp without touching much of how pvt/pvz are.
I have too suggestions:
1. Fiddle with warpgate research time/pre-requisites
This makes warpgates come in at a later timing during the game, which would fix pvp as the proxy pylon making probe would be out of your base, and other pylons would be pointless as you would no longer have warp-in capability that early in the game.
Or Blizzard could move the warp-gate tech a later building in the tech tree, or make it require another prerequisite to be researched, which also naturally pushes warpgates to slightly later in the game fixing PvP, but this affects current pvz/pvt balance.
2. Re-introduce the dark pylon they had in previous builds as a "warp-in pylon."
The idea here would be all normal pylons do not allow warp-ins in their power grid, but the "warp-in pylon" would be built and specifically have it's pylon power grid for use of the warpgates. The warp-in pylon would cost 200 minerals. Pre-req of cybernetics core.
This idea makes proxy pylons for use with warp-in more economically damaging if it does not succeed, as well as would use up funds. It keeps proxy pylon strategies themselves just as powerful as they are now, but a higher set-up cost so you cannot spam pylons in the other protoss's base.
And it does not touch current pvz/pvt balance.
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I don't see where this argument that PvT and PvZ are balanced around warp gate functionality. Just make it so the only place it can be done is on a warp prism grid, and let it work as a drop mechanic.
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I posted this in another thread, and I believe it is the most elegant solution.
All they have to do is make it that power-fields from different Protosses cannot overlap. If two pylons are in each others' power-fields, neither could be used to warp-in units. That would mean that having some pylons around your base and mineral line would be enough to kill the rush strategy.
It also prevents a lot of the problems created with the workarounds above. Furthermore, Blizzard is doing the balancing based on Warp Gates and the only problem we found with them arises is in PvPs, the only Matchup the mentioned solution would have an effect.
The less it changes the mechanics with other races, the better in my opinion.
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I would like for units not to auto-attack probes/workers when fighting combat units it would make the whole early game a lot more dynamic/interesting and help defending against warp gate rush.
On March 08 2010 19:14 squ1d wrote:
I posted this in another thread, and I believe it is the most elegant solution.
All they have to do is make it that power-fields from different Protosses cannot overlap. That would mean that having some pylons around your base and mineral line would be enough to kill the rush strategy.
It also prevents a lot of the problems created with the workarounds above. Furthermore, Blizzard is doing the balancing based on Warp Gates and the only problem we found with them arises is in PvPs, the only Matchup the mentioned solution would have an effect.
The less it changes the mechanics with other races, the better in my opinion.
This is a good idea as well I don't think you have enough pylons to cover your base so maybe it should be when two shields of enemy pylons overlap nothing can be warped in to either. The difference here is that when he puts down a pylon you can counter it by putting yours next to it.
Also warp taking longer the further you are from your closest nexus is a good solution.
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On March 08 2010 19:14 squ1d wrote:
I posted this in another thread, and I believe it is the most elegant solution.
All they have to do is make it that power-fields from different Protosses cannot overlap. That would mean that having some pylons around your base and mineral line would be enough to kill the rush strategy.
It also prevents a lot of the problems created with the workarounds above. Furthermore, Blizzard is doing the balancing based on Warp Gates and the only problem we found with them arises is in PvPs, the only Matchup the mentioned solution would have an effect.
The less it changes the mechanics with other races, the better in my opinion.
this is actually a really good idea
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No its not.. Just move your pylon some inches on the screen back and youve gonearound it. Or do you mean that warping in enemies "mountain" is the OP thing?
Anyways, boost stalkers = more gas needed to compete in army = slower rush.
Also, the units on the hill above the ramp should have advantage
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On March 08 2010 19:28 _EmIL_ wrote:
No its not.. Just move your pylon some inches on the screen back and youve gonearound it. Or do you mean that warping in enemies "mountain" is the OP thing?
Anyways, boost stalkers = more gas needed to compete in army = slower rush.
Also, the units on the hill above the ramp should have advantage
The problem exists mostly when the pylon is behind the mineral lines. If it's not, it's a lot easier to defend. And even then, I can simply plant a pylon next to yours negating your energy field.
Imagine it as disabling the pylon because both fields are interfering with each-other. Sure, it could make people plant a pylon right next to yours in order to stop it from working, but that's a lot easier to deal with than having Zealots warping into your mineral line.
Edit: Nazgul's idea of only interfering with the warp capabilities of the Pylons involved is more specific, and probably better way to implement this solution.
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Hmm.. You could still never cover his field entirely with one pylon, if his pylons field is 100% and not on a map edge or something.
Still, I think the warp gates themselves are a bit.. hmm.. noobly designed? These "features" is what makes many new games imbalanced and more of luckbased, even in mirrors. The only suggestion I have for this is a new pylong(I believe they had something called dark pylon?) and make it really low on HP. Enough low so 1-2 probes alone can kill it cost effectively.
Another solution I guess would be adding a tech on Ccore that enables your pylons to warp in their field. A really cheap one but that takes aounrd 60-90 seconds to research.
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On March 08 2010 19:39 _EmIL_ wrote:
Hmm.. You could still never cover his field entirely with one pylon, if his pylons field is 100% and not on a map edge or something.
Still, I think the warp gates themselves are a bit.. hmm.. noobly designed? These "features" is what makes many new games imbalanced and more of luckbased, even in mirrors. The only suggestion I have for this is a new pylong(I believe they had something called dark pylon?) and make it really low on HP. Enough low so 1-2 probes alone can kill it cost effectively.
Another solution I guess would be adding a tech on Ccore that enables your pylons to warp in their field. A really cheap one but that takes aounrd 60-90 seconds to research.
We don't mean the fields overlapping literally. We mean, for instance, if we have two Pylons inside each other's force fields (if I put a Pylon next to yours), neither you nor I would be able to use those Pylons to Warp units.
Edit: Even though what you're saying was my initial implementation idea, such that it would only avoid warping in in a certain area, the guys have changed it in a way that I think would work better.
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Well, that brings another problem.. Pylon rush lol. It would mean its costeffective to build a pylong next to every pylon in your opponents base that are close to the gateway(s). If your opponent doesnt do this to you it would mean you can make zealots but he cant.
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Yes, you'd piss off all your money away and he would still be able to build gateways without warp and kill all of your pylons.
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What? I must come to the conclusion that in your idea with two pylons next to eachother means that the pylon still givespower to the gateway? If so, then sorry for misunderstanding lol. I was thinking the gateway would be "unpowered" if someone puts a pylon next to the pylon supporting your gw.
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Again, the easiest way to not affect balance and nerf in-base proxy pylons is to make warp-in units take more bonus damage or warp-in time longer so probes and regular gateway units more effective in defense
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On March 08 2010 19:56 _EmIL_ wrote:
What? I must come to the conclusion that in your idea with two pylons next to eachother means that the pylon still givespower to the gateway? If so, then sorry for misunderstanding lol. I was thinking the gateway would be "unpowered" if someone puts a pylon next to the pylon supporting your gw.
No warp ability in the force fields of both pylons involved. As simple as that.
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nerfing a race due to it's mirror match seems rather stupid as it would just come as an even bigger nerf during other match ups
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How many Zerg and Terrans have you seen build pylons?
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On March 08 2010 20:06 dustdust wrote:
How many Zerg and Terrans have you seen build pylons?
Saw a Zerg do it once with neural parasited probe.
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You could always just change the warp in times in relation to ground attack / air attack ratio, that way it nerfs zealot warp ins.
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On March 08 2010 20:07 Fester wrote:
You could always just change the warp in times in relation to ground attack / air attack ratio, that way it nerfs zealot warp ins.
the issue is that would be an overall nerf for toss in all match ups when the problems is only in the mirror match, the overlapping pylons seems to be the most reasonable so far as to not effect toss outside of the mirror match
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EPT
