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On March 09 2010 17:07 0rbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 16:22 squ1d wrote:
You really don't think that delaying that tech would mean changes across the Protoss race? Really? I never said that delaying the tech wouldn't have greater implications than the early PvP warp rush. In fact, I would expect a domino effect of changes in every early game match-up. Delaying the tech by 1 or 2 minutes would allow any defender time to set up protection at their choke at the very least. I'm sure Protoss can handle themselves, one way or another, just fine in the early game if they didn't get warp-in until 1 or 2 minutes later. It will definitely create changes, but not terribly far reaching changes that run amok with mid-late game tactics. On a side note.. I think you are getting a little overzealous about defending this cumbersome balance idea that you had... maybe you just need to let it go at this point.
I didn't mean vs PvP, I meant vs PvT and PvZ, remember that the game must be seen as a whole.
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On March 09 2010 16:14 Jyvblamo wrote:
A problem that may arise if you put the Warp tech on the templar archives, for example, is that players will begin favoring that tech-branch, to the exclusion of others, like robo bay or stargate.
From reading the forums here I've been gathering that the correct choice is almost always robo first right now. If warp gates are powerful enough that always going twilight council/archives/whatever first becomes popular, how is that really different from now? Or am I misunderstanding the current state of PvT/PvZ (obviously this is a nonissue for PvP)?
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I don't see why changing the mechanics so that enemy pylons interfere with your pylons in some way is necessarily a fix. I'd really hate to see the matchup remain the same except now you have both players spamming pylons to cover both bases entirely or something, while still ending up with zealots in both probe lines. Then you're just turning a horrible matchup full of 5 minute wins into a horrible matchup full of 7 minute wins or so.
Maybe it would work, I dunno. The suggestions involving pylon interference certainly feel very unintuitive to me.
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On March 09 2010 17:15 squ1d wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 17:07 0rbit wrote:On March 09 2010 16:22 squ1d wrote:
You really don't think that delaying that tech would mean changes across the Protoss race? Really? I never said that delaying the tech wouldn't have greater implications than the early PvP warp rush. In fact, I would expect a domino effect of changes in every early game match-up. Delaying the tech by 1 or 2 minutes would allow any defender time to set up protection at their choke at the very least. I'm sure Protoss can handle themselves, one way or another, just fine in the early game if they didn't get warp-in until 1 or 2 minutes later. It will definitely create changes, but not terribly far reaching changes that run amok with mid-late game tactics. On a side note.. I think you are getting a little overzealous about defending this cumbersome balance idea that you had... maybe you just need to let it go at this point. I didn't mean vs PvP, I meant vs PvT and PvZ, remember that the game must be seen as a whole.
Man, you're not even paying attention to what people are writing at this point. I know it affects more than PvP, and that's exactly what I said already.
I said: "... a domino effect of changes in every early game match-up", and obviously that means PvP, PvZ and PvT. I just didn't think I had to spell it out for you so explicitly though....
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On March 09 2010 17:15 squ1d wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 17:07 0rbit wrote:On March 09 2010 16:22 squ1d wrote:
You really don't think that delaying that tech would mean changes across the Protoss race? Really? I never said that delaying the tech wouldn't have greater implications than the early PvP warp rush. In fact, I would expect a domino effect of changes in every early game match-up. Delaying the tech by 1 or 2 minutes would allow any defender time to set up protection at their choke at the very least. I'm sure Protoss can handle themselves, one way or another, just fine in the early game if they didn't get warp-in until 1 or 2 minutes later. It will definitely create changes, but not terribly far reaching changes that run amok with mid-late game tactics. On a side note.. I think you are getting a little overzealous about defending this cumbersome balance idea that you had... maybe you just need to let it go at this point. I didn't mean vs PvP, I meant vs PvT and PvZ, remember that the game must be seen as a whole.
0rbit is talking about every match-up and is seeing everything as a whole.
Perhaps placing the Warp Gate upgrade at Templar Archives is not a bad idea. Usually Protoss players opt for an early Robotics Facility or Stargate, so placing Warp Gates at Templar Archives forces them to make a committed choice between opening with Robotics Facility units, Stargate units, or Warp Gates. Of course, I doubt many Protoss players will pass up the early Robotics Facility simply because of the sheer strength of those units and the weakness of early Gateway units.
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On March 09 2010 17:27 0rbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 17:15 squ1d wrote:On March 09 2010 17:07 0rbit wrote:On March 09 2010 16:22 squ1d wrote:
You really don't think that delaying that tech would mean changes across the Protoss race? Really? I never said that delaying the tech wouldn't have greater implications than the early PvP warp rush. In fact, I would expect a domino effect of changes in every early game match-up. Delaying the tech by 1 or 2 minutes would allow any defender time to set up protection at their choke at the very least. I'm sure Protoss can handle themselves, one way or another, just fine in the early game if they didn't get warp-in until 1 or 2 minutes later. It will definitely create changes, but not terribly far reaching changes that run amok with mid-late game tactics. On a side note.. I think you are getting a little overzealous about defending this cumbersome balance idea that you had... maybe you just need to let it go at this point. I didn't mean vs PvP, I meant vs PvT and PvZ, remember that the game must be seen as a whole. Man, you're not even paying attention to what people are writing at this point. I know it affects more than PvP, and that's exactly what I said already. I said: "... a domino effect of changes in every early game match-up", and obviously that means PvP, PvZ and PvT. I just didn't think I had to spell it out for you so explicitly though....
My point is: should a nerf expand so deeply into the game as to change every match-up?
And because Gateways take longer to produce units, it would mean that in early game other races would get an even bigger advantage in the game. Nobody uses gateways except to produce one or two zealots in the beginning while the Cybernetics Core is building to avoid rushes.
After the Gateway build time increase, it has become increasingly difficult to hold fast ling rushes especially because they can walk through units on "hold". Add to that an increased difficulty in getting Warp Gate tech, Protoss could easily become the worst race.
Think about it: what prevents a Terran rush from working early game?
Sentries - they block off the choke with their fields. Without warp gates, they'd take forever to build.
And what prevents a ling rush? Zealots. Now imagine that Zealots will take longer to produce as a whole - I think it's 12 seconds per Zealot.
It's not as simple as you say it is, simply changing the warp tech and hoping that it will work in preventing PvP early proxy pylon - because it honestly does more bad than good.
And I may be zealous defending my idea, but I don't see a problem with that. Do you think defending your beliefs and ideas is a problem?
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Seriously?
5 pages of "balance" in PvP?
Just because it plays differently from SC1?
You lose in PvP?
Do the same shit you lost to.
You could always just mirror your opponent so the one with better macro and micro wins.
Crying because you can't 1-2 gate tech instead is a good solution, eh...? -_-
Won't ever get some people...
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Posted this in another thread and some people seemed to like it.
I think a possible solution would be to make the units extremely fragile while warping. Like, I see your zealot warping and I kill it with 2shots of a probe.
The way it is now, you are putting an enormous amount of pressure on your opponent without actually sacrificing/committing to anything.
I always had this feeling in my stomach that these warp gates, cliff jumping and random nyduses would be hard to balance and fit into the game.
Also,
On March 09 2010 17:54 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Seriously?
5 pages of "balance" in PvP?
Just because it plays differently from SC1?
You lose in PvP?
Do the same shit you lost to.
You could always just mirror your opponent so the one with better macro and micro wins.
Crying because you can't 1-2 gate tech instead is a good solution, eh...? -_-
Won't ever get some people...
And if you look deeper than that, you see PvP deteriorating into a shitfest, and people care.
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I'd just make units take more damage when they are warping in, an extra 25-50-100%(Numbers subject to balance, as always =p) would make any probes a lot more effective at stopping them warping into the mineral line at least. This could extend to buildings warping in / building / morphing too.
Building under fire shouldn't really be encouraged.
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If you do something to balance warping, that will just throw PvZ and PvT off. My solution is to buff stalkers so that microed stalkers can beat zealots. This way you can get stalkers to defend early rushes, at the same time you cannot attack effectively. It also makes stalkers more practical in PvZ and PvT.
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How about you put 2 workers on your choke to deny the scouting probe of your opponent entry?
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On March 10 2010 03:28 Arikuna wrote:
How about you put 2 workers on your choke to deny the scouting probe of your opponent entry?
How do people not realize that you can mineral walk in SC2 without having prior vision of the terrain?
1. Right click on opponent's minerals
2. Proceed to scout.
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And because Gateways take longer to produce units, it would mean that in early game other races would get an even bigger advantage in the game. Nobody uses gateways except to produce one or two zealots in the beginning while the Cybernetics Core is building to avoid rushes.
After the Gateway build time increase, it has become increasingly difficult to hold fast ling rushes especially because they can walk through units on "hold". Add to that an increased difficulty in getting Warp Gate tech, Protoss could easily become the worst race.
Just decrease the gateway buildtime and buff some units to compensate?
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Have people tried pulling some probes from mining and attacking the warping units. I'm sorry if it has been used/discussed already just haven't seen any replies/vods where the defending protoss player attacks them.
If you have identical builds and he is warping in a zealot(at the same time you are warping in your zealot) in your base you could pull 4 probes and attack it and the zealot would have lost all his shields so it would be easier to kill.
Or would the problem be that if he has 2+ gates it would take a lot of probes to defend it.
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Poll: Fixing PvP
(Vote): Fiddle with warpgate cost/research time
(Vote): Warp-in time increases (non)linearly with distance from warp gate
(Vote): Warp gate tech moved back
(Vote): Special pylon required
(Vote): Opponent pylon power negates the effect
(Vote): Other
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considering the 3 warp gate "rush" strategy is one of the strongest strategies for all mu's atm, i dont think it would hurt to increase the cost of the warp gate tech... 50 minerals and 50 gas is pretty damn low.
In comparison, zerg have nydus canal for 100/100 on each exit, while the nydus costs 150/200 ? (i think?)... It doesn't make sense why the hell warp gate research is so cheap, especially since converting your gateways into warpgates is free.
Going warp gate rush build really isn't scoutable until you see those extra gateways going down, because warp gate isn't a "choice" for protoss, its just a must-do in every match-up. Who wouldn't research it for 50/50? It isn't even a choice in the game at this point, once you have your core it is beneficial to research it, it costs less than half a stalker.
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On March 09 2010 17:54 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Seriously?
5 pages of "balance" in PvP?
Just because it plays differently from SC1?
You lose in PvP?
Do the same shit you lost to.
You could always just mirror your opponent so the one with better macro and micro wins.
Crying because you can't 1-2 gate tech instead is a good solution, eh...? -_-
Won't ever get some people...
I think it's about having a match-up that's fun for ten years.
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I think we need to nerf zealots in pvp by about 30 shield with only 50 health and cost 120 minerals. I think that would be an awesome solution to this pvp problem!!!
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Haven't read the entire thread in detail, but here's a set of changes I think would overall help P's tech tree development:
1. Move Warp Gate tech to Twilight Council
2. Move Blink tech to Dark Shrine
3. Buff Stalkers slightly (something like 10+5 instead of 8+6?)
4. Probably undo either the gateway or zlot nerfs (-15 build time, +10 shields, respectively)
The advantages of each are:
1. Should fix the warp gate rush.
2. Makes Dark Shrine less of a dead-end tech choice. Also I think it's more consistent with lore.
3. Makes up for later blink, makes the unit more useful overall
4. Lack of warp gate would have early game implications for other matchups. These changes are just in the general spirit of "rebalance early game," which I don't think should be too difficult. Maybe lower sentry build time instead, for instance.
Disadvantages:
1. Makes warp prism much less useful (need two tech buildings after Core to make full use of the prism--arguably bad, as it can also be seen like a "capacity upgrade" for the prism
(2-4) I don't think have any fundamental gameplay flaws like (1) might have in terms of tech development. They seem to be balance issues to me.
Also I think nothing as dramatic as the suggestions I made will be implemented. IMO a stalker buff and/or a warp gate research cost/time increase and/or a change in worker auto-targeting would be sufficient to solve the PvP problem itself. The other stuff were just things that bothered me (e.g. dark shrine being dead end).
Actually, fixing worker auto-targeting would be great for the game as a whole, and might by itself solve this warp gate rush situation.
edit: typos
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I don't get why people are talking about Protoss having a tough time with the other races if you move the Warpgates back. If that happens, you just buff something else. Let it be Stalkers, build time of units, or w/e.
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Im gonna repeat this.
Add a shield battery like hability to the nexus to compete with the chrono boost, it will give the defender the advantage he deserves in pvp, help protoss fend off banshee and muta harass without making any sort of imbalance in the greater whole.
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EPT
