TL Mafia 'Area' LIII - Page 9

johnnywup

United States3858 Posts

April 21 2012 00:52 GMT

#161

I think the plan falls apart if there isn't either a vig or a tracker, which is why I brought up that it's possible we don't have a vig. And what stops mafia from claiming vig then killing? Tracker sees that they kill the person that they kill, but hey it's a misfire right? Possibly, then if we policy lynch failed vig shots we could possibly waste lynches killing townies. But we wouldn't know anyways. So I feel like the plan is flawed from that perspective.

On April 21 2012 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
I want to lynch any Vig claims. One less night-kill immune GF if he's fake-claiming, and one less possible townie death due to vig misfire imoimo

wat? "lets kill vigs because they might misfire". not even if they do misfire, which makes them a lot more likely mafia. very wtf from you VE.

Mementoss

Canada2595 Posts

April 21 2012 00:55 GMT

#162

On April 21 2012 09:52 johnnywup wrote:
I think the plan falls apart if there isn't either a vig or a tracker, which is why I brought up that it's possible we don't have a vig. And what stops mafia from claiming vig then killing? Tracker sees that they kill the person that they kill, but hey it's a misfire right? Possibly, then if we policy lynch failed vig shots we could possibly waste lynches killing townies. But we wouldn't know anyways. So I feel like the plan is flawed from that perspective.
.

Well Vigs come up GF and cant kill while Goons can kill. So if someone claims misfire and you double track them, you can confirm goon if they shoot again.

VisceraEyes

United States21170 Posts

April 21 2012 00:56 GMT

#163

I want to kill them because no matter what happens, they're going to cause confusion. If they hit scum, they're either going to hit a GF (night-immune) and we'll have to kill them anyway, or they're going to hit Goon (reducing KP, best possible outcome) or they're going to hit town and we'll never REALLY know if they fake-claimed or not and we'll have to lynch them before LYLO anyway.

Feel free to disagree, but like I said - that's just my opinion.

Mementoss

Canada2595 Posts

April 21 2012 00:58 GMT

#164

I agree with johnnywup I dont think this is productive or the time to talk about this hypothetical stuff. For all we know there is no vigs or trackers. Ya never know, could be 3 jailkeepers. You can't assume which roles are in the game.

marvellosity

United Kingdom36160 Posts

April 21 2012 01:04 GMT

#165

On April 21 2012 09:58 Mementoss wrote:
I agree with johnnywup I dont think this is productive or the time to talk about this hypothetical stuff. For all we know there is no vigs or trackers. Ya never know, could be 3 jailkeepers. You can't assume which roles are in the game.

What? The vigilante-godfather-miller-weirdthing is the only strange mechanic in the game. Before things get properly rolling is absolutely the right time to talk about its implications.

johnnywup

United States3858 Posts

April 21 2012 01:05 GMT

#166

Mementoss, I never said it wasn't productive. I only said it was hypothetical. I didn't say hypothetical=unproductive. I think it's very important to talk about this kinda stuff right now.

VisceraEyes

United States21170 Posts

April 21 2012 01:12 GMT

#167

I agree - getting this info in the thread now, when there isn't much else to go on, is vastly more helpful than waiting until later when it could cause complications and derail scumhunting. At least now we can force scum into taking stances that we can hold them to later.

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

April 21 2012 01:15 GMT

#168

We're not going to be able to outguess the mod based upon the numbers we sent in

PaqMan

United States1475 Posts

April 21 2012 01:18 GMT

#169

So what's the plan?

VisceraEyes

United States21170 Posts

April 21 2012 01:20 GMT

#170

Yeah, no one is suggesting that BM. We're trying to figure out how to handle situations that could arise.

What do you think we should do about the Vigs BM? Should they call their shot in advance to give possible trackers a chance to do their work? Should they just do what they do and claim after? How should town handle such a beast?

Mementoss

Canada2595 Posts

April 21 2012 01:22 GMT

#171

On April 21 2012 10:05 johnnywup wrote:
Mementoss, I never said it wasn't productive. I only said it was hypothetical. I didn't say hypothetical=unproductive. I think it's very important to talk about this kinda stuff right now.

It seems like a waste to go through things that possibly aren't even in the game. Also I'm just saying that say a scum could give an opinions towards the town that directs blue in a way that doesn't benefit town.

I'm not sure of the best course of action towards vig. Im trying to think why a scum would want to claim vig. If there goon and they get tracked they are going to get killed. If they are GF they just bring attention to themselves. I guess they could claim a shot that didn't go through as there would be no counter claim and try to kill an innocent townie by making them look like a mafia. But its a suicide plan.

VE says kill all claimed vig shots, or tracked vig shots. On the face this seems scummy as you might kill a town. But I think it is a reasonable point. If you kill a claimed shot, you have at least a 40% (if 3 vigs 2 GF) chance of hitting scum, but it is more likely 50%(2 vigs 2 GF) or 66%(1 vig 2 GF). That is assuming a townie wouldnt be stupid enough to lie and fake the claim. The only problem is we really can't verify if we killed scum or not.

But this might scare real vigs away from claiming shots. Sooo not sure what to do. Lol.

layabout

United Kingdom2600 Posts

April 21 2012 01:22 GMT

#172

off to sleep.

How should town handle such a beast?

lol

marvellosity

United Kingdom36160 Posts

April 21 2012 01:23 GMT

#173

I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/

VisceraEyes

United States21170 Posts

April 21 2012 01:25 GMT

#174

On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote:
I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/

Actually, a vigi only really clears himself by shooting a GOON. Hitting a GF will result in WIFOM about what happened to his shot (GFs are night-kill immune).

Bluelightz

Indonesia2463 Posts

April 21 2012 01:26 GMT

#175

edit : oops wrong thread.

gonzaw

Uruguay4911 Posts

April 21 2012 01:28 GMT

#176

Great, game started

Important! About vigs!

All vigs should claim

Why? Because of this:

There are no roleblockers, therefore a claimed blue will be able to use his ability at night no matter what
If said vig ever gets lynched, he will flip GF. If he doesn't claim at all, or claims vig right before getting lynched, then it will instill confusion about whether he was actually GF or not.
If all vigs claim beforehand, we will KNOW that they will flip GF, so the confusion about their flip is removed.
It will force the GFs to claim vig as well. Why? Because if all vigs claim, but then a vig claims that he shot someone, but that someone doesn't die, if the first player is confirmed vig, then the second player is CONFIRMED GODFATHER. If GFs want to avoid that situation, they will have to claim vig.
If all vigs claim, since there isn't any roleblocker, they will be free to shoot anybody they want. If there is town consensus on who to shoot, said vigs could take that into account to shoot lurkers/scummy people of their choice at night. Even if vigs want to shoot anybody in particular, they don't need to hide that info since scum can't RB him, so they can just discuss with town about said player and he can say he will shoot him in advance.
This previous arrangement with Town-Vigs will make is to that Jailkeepers DON'T jail those players that vigs said they would shoot. That way the JK's power isn't wasted (and could cause confusion if he succesfully saves a vig shot, but doesn't claim (i.e people will think the target is GF)). Also, since scum is less likely to shoot vig targets, it means that the JK has a smaller pool of players to choose from, and has a higher chance of saving a scum KP at night
If a vig were to claim a target at night, and said target doesn't die, either the vig is a GF/Goon in disguise, or his target is GF. Meaning we have a confirmed scum in either of those 2, and can lynch either of them
Vigilantes can shoot each other as well if they think there was a fake-claim. It follows just like a normal kill.
If one vig shoots another claimed vig, then if the vig was a real claim, he will flip GF. If he was Goon he will flip Goon, and if he was GF he won't flip (creating the same situation as above).
If GF claims vig, then they can't shoot on their own. They either need to "No-Kill" 1 KP and claim it's theirs, while claiming that the scum KP got saved by a JK, or claim their target is GF. Both are bad for scum (they have to give info they wouldn't have wanted to give otherwise) and good for us if we use the information wisely.
If scum are complacent (they don't fake-claim, or do so but don't make other plans, etc) then we'll have a small circle (or even 1) of town-vigs to our disposal and we can do whatever we want, and most likely obliterate scum (based on the previous points too)

So people, any thoughts about this? I think it's the optimal course of action.
Imagine we have like 4 vig claims, then we can use them as we will, we can coordinate night shots without fear of a RBer, and we can use said night actions to determine the alignment of said vigs (we tell them who to shoot and see if the kill goes through or not, and who was his target, etc), and we can better coordinate shots as if they were lynches as well.
We won't have a lone vig shooting someone random at night and him flipping town creating havoc. All vigs should discuss their targets and face scrutiny if their reasoning for shooting said target fails, etc.

I'm willing to discuss other factors, cons and pros of this, so feel free to contribute

marvellosity

United Kingdom36160 Posts

April 21 2012 01:29 GMT

#177

On April 21 2012 10:25 VisceraEyes wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually, a vigi only really clears himself by shooting a GOON. Hitting a GF will result in WIFOM about what happened to his shot (GFs are night-kill immune).

Right, so scum could claim their shot was blocked on some random townie and WIFOM it up. Gotcha.

So, are there in fact any GOOD circumstances to make a vig shot?

marvellosity

United Kingdom36160 Posts

April 21 2012 01:33 GMT

#178

Holy gonzaw post. Nice

gonzaw

Uruguay4911 Posts

April 21 2012 01:37 GMT

#179

If mafia claim vig, and claim to shoot a target, and then do so with their own KP, this can happen:

The Goon claimed vig, and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Then he wastes his other KP. If he was real vig, then there would be an additional KP, but in this case there isn't. In this case he HAS to claim that the target of scum's KP got Jailed, which can bring problems to him depending on the real JKs, for instance if there is no JK he's fucked).
In this case, a tracker on him will watch him visit his claimed target
Also, in this case (if a tracker tracks him), they can't "shoot" someone, claim their shot failed and say his target was GF, because the tracker will instantly know it's bullshit.
The GF claimed vig and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Same as above, but only the Goon will use his KP. So if a tracker tracks him, he will know he didn't shoot his target and will know he's scum.

I guess this means that maybe the GF's won't fake-claim vig, and the Goons will instead? In that case, if we ever lynch him, he will flip Goon and we will know 100% that he was scum when he's lynched.
If he was GF and we lynched him, since he would flip GF we wouldn't be 100% sure he was scum.

So to fake-claim, scum have to choose between:
-Being protected from trackers, but not creating confusion if they ever get lynched, nor having to rely on JK's to claim their shots
or
-Creating confusion if they ever get lynched, but not relying on JK's to claim their shots, nor being protected from trackers.

The point is that they have to choose, they HAVE to do something. We will force them to react to our plans, and hopefully they fuck up their plans/fake-claims and we catch them easily.

Mementoss

Canada2595 Posts

April 21 2012 01:37 GMT

#180

So just to clarify gonzaw are you saying vigs should claim day 1. Cause if thats so, all shots would need to go off night 1 or mafia would probably just take them all out, maybe they would leave them in to keep the GF flips confusing. It seems like it could be risky shooting into townies without a lot of information, on night 1. But you bring up a lot of good points.

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