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On January 05 2013 07:28 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 07:21 Hapahauli wrote:DarthPunk's Stance on LurkersOn January 05 2013 05:53 DarthPunk wrote:
well. I expected to wake up to a hell of a lot more posts than two.
Ugh. There is nothing really to go off yet. All this arguing over set-up only servers to obfuscate reads on things.
... On January 05 2013 06:36 DarthPunk wrote:
...
The thing that is hurting this game the most right now is lurking. So why are you not saying anything about lurking? DP is apparently super-concerned with lurkers this game. In fact, he has a well-established history of pressuring lurkers in similar game situations. Witchcraft Mini Mafia had a very similar opening, where town was very inactive for most of Day 1. DarthPunk was very adamant about pursuing players who haven't posted. In his own words: Who the fuck is saying anything about tunnelling? I clearly said pressure. I fucking pressured lurkers all of day one in witchcraft.
... He pressured lurkers all of Day 1 in witchcraft mini mafia (as town). He's done nothing to that end so far, despite his concern. Basically, his "concern" is a front. He's pretending to be concerned about lurkers, and offering much rhetoric to that end. When it comes down to it however, he doesn't give a shit about pressuring them. Instead, he goes after the most active player in the game.
As a side note, DarthPunk and I have played many games together. He's very intimately familiar with how I play town. Hilariously enough, everything he's attacking me for this game are signature traits of my town play. Pushing "weak" wagons on Day 1, OMGUS plays... these are all things that I do in every one of my town games. DarthPunk seems to have conveniently "forgot" about our game history for his own ends. I suggest everyone read the context of those quotes as HAPA edited them out of context to suit his agenda. Hapa stated that he was pushing terrible wagons in order to increase activity. I then said as quoted why don't you pressure lurkers instead as they are actively hurting the game. Yes I am concerned about lurkers but that does not and never will prevent me from going after someone I view as scummier. And yes I do know hapas play. and he is correct in saying that this is all hallmarks of his town play but scum try to EMULATE their town play. The key difference is that Town hapa is almost always CLEARLY town. and right now He is not clearly town but quite scummy. I am gone now. If someone wishes to talk I will be back in several hours. GLHF.
What I edited out of those quotes is completely inconsequential to the discussion.
Hapa stated that he was pushing terrible wagons in order to increase activity. I then said as quoted why don't you pressure lurkers instead as they are actively hurting the game.
Yes, and do you realize how hypocritical this is? You attacked me for not going after lurkers. While you are super-concerned about said lurkers, and haven't attempted to go after them even once so far.
For effect, not once this game have you attempted to go after a lurker.
And yes I do know hapas play. and he is correct in saying that this is all hallmarks of his town play but scum try to EMULATE their town play. The key difference is that Town hapa is almost always CLEARLY town. and right now He is not clearly town but quite scummy. I am gone now. If someone wishes to talk I will be back in several hours.
DP conveniently "forgot" our game-history again. In fact, DP was convinced I was scum in Witchcraft Mini until I revealed my alignment to him after his death! WHOOPS.
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And what's hilarious about this whole DP thing is that it's all words and no action. He has been explicitly calling me scum for the last page or so. Examples include:
On January 05 2013 07:07 DarthPunk wrote:
I will be gone soon. If I stop posting you know why.
@everyone besides hapa. If you get outposted by scum as town you fail at this game. Just saying.
Well, that is cool with me HAPA. I don't have to convince you you are scum. I just have to convince the town. And that should be straightforward after this little party we have been having together.
And yes I do know hapas play. and he is correct in saying that this is all hallmarks of his town play but scum try to EMULATE their town play. The key difference is that Town hapa is almost always CLEARLY town. and right now He is not clearly town but quite scummy. I am gone now. If someone wishes to talk I will be back in several hours.
This guy has been explicitly and directly calling me scum (without any second thoughts). Yet where is his vote? Hell when I asked him to outline his case on me, this is what he posted:
You aren't going to mislynch me HAPA. I suggest you try to mislynch someone else.
And my case isn't one yet. I haven't even voted for you. But I think you outed yourself pretty nicely in this te ta te. If someone other than Hapa wants me to clarify something or ask me a question then feel free.
Also about the lurker thing. I was critical of lurkers but believing that because I am critical of lurkers I can only go after lurkers is fallacious. Especially when I value knowing your alignment far more.
Once again, no case, no nothing. Just more rhetoric about me "outing" myself.
All talk, no backing, and nothing of substance. That's pretty damn scummy.
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On January 05 2013 07:33 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Xalatos
Welcome! Thoughts on DP appreciated!
Regarding your own points:
MrZ - He tends to do very "trolly" stuff as town and scum. His early-game in Witchcraft Mini is a good example, where he self-votes himself and just posts a couple of meaningless one-liners for most of Day 1 (as town). I'm not too worried about MrZ, as I think reading him is fairly easy. He's very clammy and afraid to post as scum. He's much more open and jokey as town.
JayBrundage - He's lynch-bait (see Hero Mini Mafia). We should definitely encourage him to post more, but he's a pretty easy mislynch (if he's town) because he tends to make sparse and wishy-washy posts.
Mr.CC - I think he's fairly similar to MrZ. I'm not very worried about reading him, because I feel he has a hard time replicating his "jokey" town-meta. His inactivity so far is a concern, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to RL business.
Well, for starters, I think you're most likely town. I can't believe a Mafia would outpost everyone in the thread and engage in every possible topic. Does that make DarthPunk Mafia in my eyes? Not really. I agree with many things he says, and his filter just reads fairly townish to me - this post for example:
On January 05 2013 06:16 DarthPunk wrote:
I don;t like either of the 'cases' to be perfectly honest.
Rise is completely null to me. And to be honest you are the one picking a fight with rise. There should be one read due to Rises' aggression and that is null. I thought that you were simply following up on him in order to push the town to be active. However you trying to drum up support for a bandwagon based of something that any player of your calibre should KNOW is a null tell is not 'potentially scummy' it IS scummy. and it has me worried.
Since when do you call things 'potentially scummy' anyway??? sounds really fucking off to be honest.
Yeah it was a WTF post from yamato initially. But his explanation, willingness to be open and transparent, and the fact that his original WTF post turned out to be an exercise in an open thought process give me a town read on yamato at this juncture.
And once again I am wondering how the fuck a town hapa is not reaching the same conclusions as myself and is pushing the wagons of two people who are null at worst.
I consider DarthPunk to be trying to figure out the game, not trying to drive his own agenda. That's always town points +++ in my books. I don't like him labeling you as his main suspect, considering your heavy activity and overall townish agenda, but it would be stupid for Mafia to target someone like you as well. I think it's just a case of town vs town flamewar. That's happened so many times before, and not even once has a war between active players A and B resulted in one of them flipping Mafia (in my games).
Ugh, I don't like giving some players the benefit of the doubt if they're "lynch baits". That just encourages them to play anti-town as Mafia and then get away with it. Especially MrZentor's playstyle is so irritatingly useless and hard to read... What's the point of signing up if he justs posts some one liners anyway?
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Well see DarthPunk is very capable of playing an engaged and active mafia game. It's his individual behavior that makes him scummy. For example, his complete lack of pursuing lurkers despite him being super-concerned about them. In addition, his "all bark, no bite" stance on me... where he's been directly calling me scum, yet hasn't placed his vote and hasn't been able to produce a case on me when asked:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391112¤tpage=8#142
Ugh, I don't like giving some players the benefit of the doubt if they're "lynch baits". That just encourages them to play anti-town as Mafia and then get away with it. Especially MrZentor's playstyle is so irritatingly useless and hard to read... What's the point of signing up if he justs posts some one liners anyway?
It's not like I'm unwilling to lynch Jay if I think he's mafia. Far from it. However, his behavior does need to be analyzed in the context of his own gameplay.
As for MrZ, I'm not worried about him at all. He's actually pretty easy to read, because his mafia and town personas are completely different from one another. He's far more active, engaged, and jokey in his town games. In his mafia games, it's pretty clear that he has a hard time making posts. His activity and engagement will reveal his alignment soon enough.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Vote Count
DarthPunk (1): Hapahauli
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Not Voting: MrZentor, Mr. Cheesecake, Xatalos, jaybrundage, DarthPunk, yamato77, RiseAgain, ShiaoPi
5 votes are required to lynch.
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Where'd you go Xalatos? Hell where did everyone go =(
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On January 05 2013 07:54 Hapahauli wrote:Well see DarthPunk is very capable of playing an engaged and active mafia game. It's his individual behavior that makes him scummy. For example, his complete lack of pursuing lurkers despite him being super-concerned about them. In addition, his "all bark, no bite" stance on me... where he's been directly calling me scum, yet hasn't placed his vote and hasn't been able to produce a case on me when asked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391112¤tpage=8#142Show nested quote +Ugh, I don't like giving some players the benefit of the doubt if they're "lynch baits". That just encourages them to play anti-town as Mafia and then get away with it. Especially MrZentor's playstyle is so irritatingly useless and hard to read... What's the point of signing up if he justs posts some one liners anyway? It's not like I'm unwilling to lynch Jay if I think he's mafia. Far from it. However, his behavior does need to be analyzed in the context of his own gameplay. As for MrZ, I'm not worried about him at all. He's actually pretty easy to read, because his mafia and town personas are completely different from one another. He's far more active, engaged, and jokey in his town games. In his mafia games, it's pretty clear that he has a hard time making posts. His activity and engagement will reveal his alignment soon enough.
Hmmm... I can kind of see what you're getting at. For example, this post:
On January 05 2013 07:04 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 06:57 Hapahauli wrote:
Naw it's quite good actually.
You've been screaming "lurkers are ruining the game" in our conversation. Your solution? You've never offered a single lurker to the chopping block. Instead, you think the most active player in the game is scummy.
That's a complete load of logical shit, and I don't expect that from a town DP. We don't have to lynch forever in this game. we can wait a bit before we seriously consider lynching for lurking which is a larger sacrifice in a game this small. What was on top of my agenda was figuring out hapa as you are the scariest player in this game, and if I could get a solid town read on you we could roll these scum. Unfortunately you went retard and or are scum so now I have to deal with a hapa tunnelling me based on Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 06:54 Hapahauli wrote:
Straight-up OMGUS and a sprinkle of gut-feeling. You scum brah. All the while I am somehow illogical despite having really solid reasoning and you just ignoring that to serve your OMGUS agenda. Well, that is cool with me HAPA. I don't have to convince you you are scum. I just have to convince the town. And that should be straightforward after this little party we have been having together.
Look at these three bolded statements. First you're the scariest player in the game. Then you're retard town (or scum). Then you're certainly scum. These statements just contradict each other. This kind of flip-flopping about your A) skill level B) alignment doesn't make me feel good about DP. Even so, I don't like lynching one of the most active players when most players have done (practically) nothing. Especially this early.
Well, I'm not really sure how MrZentor is so easy to read... I'm having extreme difficulties reading him. And I've played with him in two games before too. It shouldn't be too hard to fake some joke posts, right? Especially with his general low activity and lack of any content.
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Hapa, aren't you glad I make myself easy to read?
+ Show Spoiler +On January 05 2013 07:23 Xatalos wrote:Sorry for the late entrance, but I warned about this pre-game :/ Anyways, there are a couple of players whose posting I haven't liked so far: MrZentorShow nested quote +On January 04 2013 09:37 MrZentor wrote:
Also, dragging days out will lead to decreased interest in the game by town, increasing inactivity, and generally making things easier for scum.
Days should be 48-72 hours. Additional discussion time benefits town and damages Mafia. Mafia's agenda is to stall discussion and create confusion - both of these goals are achieved by faster lynches where less players can offer their opinions. From my point of view, the above post is pushing Mafia agenda. Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 11:40 MrZentor wrote:
I feel that creating an arbitrary limit will only limit town, regardless of whether that limit is one that shortens or lengthens the day.
We should instead have guidelines.
48-72 hours This post basically repeats what was already said in the previous post... Plus some obvious setup talk that anyone could post, no matter their alignment. It's quite unnecessary to mention that his "faster lynches plan" is a guideline and not a strictly enforced rule. Who would have thought so in the first place, really? Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 11:54 MrZentor wrote:
By the way, I will be reserving my vote, just so I can the first to lynch somebody. Another post that doesn't fit into town agenda. Regardless of the trollish appearance, this post actually gives MrZentor more breathing room if he just joins a bandwagon without good reasoning later on. He told he would do so after all, didn't he? Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 11:59 MrZentor wrote:
ShiaoPi, if you say that you agree with me about not creating arbitrary limits about the length of the day, I will think of you as confirmed town. Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 12:12 MrZentor wrote:
Because we're masoned.
But don't tell anybody. Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 12:15 MrZentor wrote:
I'm masoned with more than one person.
ShiaoPi pulled a BH. More fluff... So far there's nothing townish in MrZentor's filter, and too much useless/anti-town stuff to be overlooked. If he's town, he needs to change his playstyle completely. If he's Mafia, he needs to continue on his current path and convince us he can't be town. Mr. CheesecakeWho was he again? I only remembered him after rereading the thread a couple of times. He hasn't actually taken stances on anything that matters (not counting obvious stuff like "we should lynch the scummiest player"). What I'm most worried about is his complete lack of presence - he's basically casually lurking without being too obvious. I'm unwilling to judge him yet, but he isn't looking good so far. jaybrundageShow nested quote +On January 04 2013 10:45 jaybrundage wrote:Well we can rule out Palmar as the smurf. In regards to your idea about the set up. It seems that if we have a parity cop. And then lynch the person the parity cop targeted night one. We would have confirmed towns and confirmed scum easily. As we have no millers or GF's. The only trick would be for the parity cop to push his lynch well with out getting outed. Unless you have some idea for claiming. Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 11:42 jaybrundage wrote:On January 04 2013 11:01 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Jay
Any other thoughts on what Rise and I have discussed over the first pages of the thread? Day length, hammer votes, or anything really. We should lynch someone when we feel confident they are mafia. We should always be aware of the hammer vote. People should be responsible for there hammer vote. We shouldn't rush a lynch cause we lost discussions to read people with. Policy Lynches rarely work so we should refrain from doing them. Pretty straight forward imo. Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 12:00 jaybrundage wrote:On January 04 2013 11:59 MrZentor wrote:
ShiaoPi, if you say that you agree with me about not creating arbitrary limits about the length of the day, I will think of you as confirmed town. Should be obvious why limit our selves? Only lynch when we are confident in the lynch. And have had good discussion over it. This is his whole filter. It's certainly... lacking, for a lack of better word. First he speculates a bit about blue roles, then gives a list of vague of his policy opinions, then leaves. It's just all too vague and pointless for my liking. What's up with this lack of effort, interest, anything really? Some players have been very active so far and it's definitely a good theme in this game. But some players (like these 3 above) have done practically nothing, even if they have posted. That should be some reason for concern to anyone.
Additional discussion time benefits town and damages Mafia. Mafia's agenda is to stall discussion and create confusion - both of these goals are achieved by faster lynches where less players can offer their opinions. From my point of view, the above post is pushing Mafia agenda.
Up to a certain point, additional discussion time benefits town, obviously. But a lot of people seem to think that more time is ALWAYS good for town. They don't realize that after a certain point, not being able to lynch somebody, because of all this extra time, hurts town.
Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's pushing Mafia agenda. K?
This post basically repeats what was already said in the previous post... Plus some obvious setup talk that anyone could post, no matter their alignment. It's quite unnecessary to mention that his "faster lynches plan" is a guideline and not a strictly enforced rule. Who would have thought so in the first place, really?
What post? This post?
On January 04 2013 11:39 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 11:32 Hapahauli wrote:@ Mr.CCOn January 04 2013 11:21 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On January 04 2013 11:17 Hapahauli wrote:On January 04 2013 10:45 jaybrundage wrote:Well we can rule out Palmar as the smurf. In regards to your idea about the set up. It seems that if we have a parity cop. And then lynch the person the parity cop targeted night one. We would have confirmed towns and confirmed scum easily. As we have no millers or GF's. The only trick would be for the parity cop to push his lynch well with out getting outed. Unless you have some idea for claiming. Is Rise a smurf? He seems to me more like a guy who stumbled upon our parts from mafiascum.net or something. Perhaps I'm wrong. Either way it doesn't matter, just another face I don't know. Easier to judge based on face value, without all the meta behind it. Well I'd interpret him withholding his game history a lot differently if he was a smurf. And looking at his profile... yeah he's a smurf. 'doh. British flag and whatnot. Haha that's hilarious. Still, we can't judge anything based on him being a smurf. Not really going to dwell or speculate on it further.
Another post that doesn't fit into town agenda. Regardless of the trollish appearance, this post actually gives MrZentor more breathing room if he just joins a bandwagon without good reasoning later on. He told he would do so after all, didn't he?
I didn't say I would join a bandwagon with any good reason. I said I would be the final vote in the lynching of somebody. And scum wouldn't make a post like that. The easiest thing for them to do is recycle reasons while adding a few pointless one of their owns for joining a bandwagon. Also, mafia wouldn't want to have the hammer vote.
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@ Xatalos
Well keep in mind that the only reason that DP is active is because I've been tunneling him rather adamantly.
As for MrZ, well we can agree to disagree on him. If you do find him suspicious, I do encourage you to tunnel him and get something out of him.
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Well, I'm not really sure how MrZentor is so easy to read... I'm having extreme difficulties reading him. And I've played with him in two games before too. It shouldn't be too hard to fake some joke posts, right? Especially with his general low activity and lack of any content.
1. I make myself so easy to read by doing a lot of things mafia would be hesitant to do, things that are so obviously scummy that mafia have a lot of difficulty actually doing them. Look at the first day in Witchcraft Mafia for an example.
2. I get more active and generally create more content as time goes on and town gets more information. Again, I'd like to cite Witchcraft Mafia as an example.
How many times have you been scum in forum mafia, Xatalos?
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And in what games? 
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MrZ, what dost thou mak'eth of DP?
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@ Xatalos
If you had one (or two) top scumreads in the thread at the moment, who would it be and why? You threw around 3 lurkers and called them suspicious, but that's rather easy to do. I'm more interested in your conclusions.
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Uhhhh... what does that have to do with anything?
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Hapa, although I'm unaware of DP's typical scum play, I'm pretty confident he's town.
And what do you think of Xatalos?
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I just needed everybody's filters in the same place.
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On January 05 2013 08:42 MrZentor wrote:
Hapa, although I'm unaware of DP's typical scum play, I'm pretty confident he's town.
And what do you think of Xatalos?
How so? If it's about his general loudness and aggressiveness, he's more than capable of doing that as scum. In fact he's done a similar nonsensical tunnel on me in TL Mafia LVII.
As for Xatalos... well nothing yet. I'm not a huge fan of his post calling three lurkers suspicious, but I can see it coming from either alignment. That's why I'm asking him for some more concrete reads atm. There's just nothing tangible in his filter I can hold him accountable for.
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Lurking is fucking shit, even more so in this setup. If you lurk that will make me want to lynch you.
The thing that is hurting this game the most right now is lurking. So why are you not saying anything about lurking? In fact the only time you have 'pressured' people is when another player first comments on them. Shiao Pi with Riseagain and myself with Yamato.
That is quite distinct to what you did in witchcraft for example, which was push people on your own regardless of the positions of others, make a strong case and ask people to judge that on it's merits.
Posts like these make me think he is town. He's one of the more difficult people to read, so I think it would be best to wait a day before lynching him.
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On January 05 2013 08:52 MrZentor wrote:Show nested quote +Lurking is fucking shit, even more so in this setup. If you lurk that will make me want to lynch you. Show nested quote +The thing that is hurting this game the most right now is lurking. So why are you not saying anything about lurking? In fact the only time you have 'pressured' people is when another player first comments on them. Shiao Pi with Riseagain and myself with Yamato.
That is quite distinct to what you did in witchcraft for example, which was push people on your own regardless of the positions of others, make a strong case and ask people to judge that on it's merits. Posts like these make me think he is town. He's one of the more difficult people to read, so I think it would be best to wait a day before lynching him.
I think those posts make him scum. What has he done to pressure lurkers or even encourage lurkers to post? Literally nothing.
Saying "lurking suckzzz" is non-alignment indicative alone, but when you don't follow up on it at all, it's scummy. Especially when you chose to go after the guy with 40% of the Day 1 posts instead of the lurkers. What has he done to encourage lurkers to post? Nothing!
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EPT
