EPTWhy cannot the SC-community accept imbalance? - Page 8
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graniten
Sweden36 Posts
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Tarot
Canada440 Posts
So discussing balance is kind of iffy when the maps being played are such a huge role in the game. | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
Where is the imbalance at? Is it the units? Is it a certain timing? Is it the map? Is one race too strong at a certain point in the game? Is it just the person playing the race being more skilled than everyone else(I'm looking at you Nestea)? Anyway, that is my thoughts on balance, but my thoughts on attitude about balance are a bit different. From a player perspective, I think imbalance is shitty and it makes me rage. As a spectator though, I like imbalance...I want to see people overcome insurmountable odds to beat an "imbalance" in the game. I want to see Huk use superior skill to beat a BO3 with all 1/1/1 all in builds against him and then do a ceremony. I want to see Fruitdealer win Open Season 1 of the GSL when everyone said a Zerg couldn't win to Terran and Protoss all-ins. Rooting for an underdog is awesome and makes it entertaining for me. My only problem with "imbalance" is the people that it brings out of the woodwork. Just some quality examples: On August 12 2011 01:50 sunman1g wrote: i absolutely hate Zerg players from the bottom of my heart. they can just play so abusively and can't get punished at all. all they did was crying for months and months and now that they realized how to play their race it's showing. On August 12 2011 02:53 Kammalleri wrote: It takes a lot of control, macro and an inane strategic mind to make marines tank and banshees on 1 base and push across the map as a ball to siege the natural. On August 10 2011 16:18 Xeanrot wrote: Check played better, Check played Zerg, Naniwa played shit race, GG This is just from 2 or 3 pages of the Automated Ban List, and tons of this shit goes by unnoticed each and every day. Instead of actually complaining, people should be out there making specific builds and getting better. Finding weird timings to try and stop imbalance in its tracks. Waiting around with your hands in your pockets hoping that blizzard magically takes all the imbalances out of the game just reminds me of a little kid giving up because they didn't get what they wanted. If you want to complain, be reasonable about it. I don't think the mods have a problem with people suggesting something is "strong" and that X race needs to find a solution to it, but thinking of solutions is better than "BLIZZARD FIX PL0X". I guess this turned into a rant, I just hope that someday I can go into an LR thread without seeing all the complaining and whining. P.S. I hope most of these people complaining go to google and look up courage wolf meme and just enjoy the game. | ||
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graniten
Sweden36 Posts
On August 13 2011 23:00 Demonace34 wrote: Where is the imbalance at? Is it the units? Is it a certain timing? Is it the map? Is one race too strong at a certain point in the game? Is it just the person playing the race being more skilled than everyone else(I'm looking at you Nestea)? To be honest i dont think its that hard the only thing that sticks out and is imbalanced is emp and fungel. Sure uppgrades marines can be strong but it isnt at that magintute. Everybody was complaining about marines before terran got the ghost buff now marines are like fine compared. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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Liudo
United Kingdom344 Posts
This means it is easy to shut down people who discuss imbalance as whiners. Balance is helluva complicated. I guess therefore a lot of people like to defer to authority about it... whether that is the opinions of high-profile players, or forum moderators, or Blizzard. | ||
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Liudo
United Kingdom344 Posts
On August 13 2011 22:47 graniten wrote: Its hard to balance a game like street figher when you have 20 characters its not impossible to balance a game with 3 races. The game isnt balanced now but i will be in the future. Six month ago nobody complained about ghosts now ghosts are like the most important unit, the game evolves all the time. Don't really accept the logic of points like this because SC2 has a lot more units than 3 races. | ||
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Cartel
Canada255 Posts
The biggest argument I laugh at is that Terrans are more skilled and have found ways to do this and that where as other races have not put the same amount of thought into it LOL little kids trying to pretend to think. Its ridiculous. As if an entire population playing protoss or zerg havent tested out new strategies to try to adapt? Only Terran players have the foresight to test new strategies right? | ||
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BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
Honestly, there is a pretentious position that people take in this community for trying to be 'cool' and politically correct in denying clear imbalances in this game. Its like they are above everyone else and forward thinkers for denying clear imbalance due to insufficient data, when clearly the data is sufficient. Name one "clear" imbalance, please. What would it be? Forcefields, that aren't as strong now as they were a couple of months ago because people adapt, infestors that get weaker as more terran/protoss players learn to use EMP/feedback or the all time favorite EMP that you can get "so early on", yet is completely useless before the 10 minute mark. The reason people don't talk about imbalance here is that "finding imbalances" is impossible. If you think you know what exactly is "imbalanced", stop fooling yourself. There is so much that influences imbalances. It's not street fighter where it's pretty obvious what's imbalanced and what is not, where there's only ONE CHAMPION against ONE CHAMPION at a time, in the same area every time. Starcraft is balanced enough to the point where any imbalances are not obvious (except for in your own head, which is more clouded by bias than fox news). | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 13 2011 23:22 Liudo wrote: Don't really accept the logic of points like this because SC2 has a lot more units than 3 races. And some of those units are more worthwhile in more situations than others (see: Hydralisks underusage) but because we have an economy-based strategy game on our hands, you can avoid situations that are awful. | ||
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graniten
Sweden36 Posts
On August 13 2011 23:22 Liudo wrote: Don't really accept the logic of points like this because SC2 has a lot more units than 3 races. You have to see the big picture. se a race like a fighter you can do different moves. If we say you can do 40 moves with a fighter in street fighter every move is like a unit in sc. And in the end those moves have to be balanced when they all are used. Its harder than 3 characters in street fighter but i think its easier than 20 characters. | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On August 13 2011 23:13 graniten wrote: To be honest i dont think its that hard the only thing that sticks out and is imbalanced is emp and fungel. Sure uppgrades marines can be strong but it isnt at that magintute. Everybody was complaining about marines before terran got the ghost buff now marines are like fine compared. Well I still think that is too black and white for an actual discussion. I don't even know how you are comparing magnitudes of an EMP with the DPS of a marine. I think you can chalk it up to more of a meta-game shift where people are realizing the importance of the ghost, the "buff" just helped to initiate that shift. Also, balance is actually a hard thing to figure out, if you don't think so just look at the variables. Map size and structure, number of units, dps, upgrades, macro and micro differences, players, early game to late game. How can you suggest imbalance about something that actually comes down to player skill, EMP vs Feedback. On August 13 2011 23:23 Cartel wrote: Honestly, there is a pretentious position that people take in this community for trying to be 'cool' and politically correct in denying clear imbalances in this game. Its like they are above everyone else and forward thinkers for denying clear imbalance due to insufficient data, when clearly the data is sufficient. The biggest argument I laugh at is that Terrans are more skilled and have found ways to do this and that where as other races have not put the same amount of thought into it LOL little kids trying to pretend to think. Its ridiculous. As if an entire population playing protoss or zerg havent tested out new strategies to try to adapt? Only Terran players have the foresight to test new strategies right? Well they actually found a strong 1/1/1 push that they made up on 1 base that works well, and it took time to figure out all the ins and outs of the build. I don't think people are saying Terran is more skilled, it is just that when refining a build they found a certain one that does well against Protoss. It is just a meta-game shift. I'm actually ignorant of most of BW history, but I'm sure there were people complaining about Zerg in the days of SAviOr being a bonjwa thought there wasn't a way to beat him until the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bisu_Build came along. Guess what, no patches to the game, just someone who innovated and found a better build. It takes longer than many people would like to think, and there are probably different builds that could make a match-up "imbalanced" that are never found. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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graniten
Sweden36 Posts
On August 13 2011 23:33 Demonace34 wrote: Well I still think that is too black and white for an actual discussion. I don't even know how you are comparing magnitudes of an EMP with the DPS of a marine. I think you can chalk it up to more of a meta-game shift where people are realizing the importance of the ghost, the "buff" just helped to initiate that shift. Also, balance is actually a hard thing to figure out, if you don't think so just look at the variables. Map size and structure, number of units, dps, upgrades, macro and micro differences, players, early game to late game. How can you suggest imbalance about something that actually comes down to player skill, EMP vs Feedback. You have no idea how strong emp is, one emp can change the whole game in favor for the terran. And its lowers the shields by 100 should be more like 50 or 25. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
Let's take the most imbalanced AND balanced game at the same time : Guilty Gear XX Accent Core. On paper, the tier list is just cruel : Eddie has positive match-ups on the whole cast except 1 character which is quite useless against the rest of the cast. Slayer and Millia can rape you for free. But in the end it's considered the most balanced game of all times. Why ? Because skill can make for ANYTHING in this game. If you're playing perfectly, there cannot be any imbalance in Guilty Gear, because of really hardcore mechanics, like Slashback or 1f jumps. And the players moved their ass off to master this as well as to find viable tournaments formats : all GGXXAC is played 3v3 now, there aren't solo tournaments anymore. The problem is that in SC2 there are very few things you'll be able to catch up through skill. If we find a really unbeatable unit composition, there will be no solution. Point. It's very hard to realize this and quite heart-breacking. If SC2 is proved imbalanced, it will be just be a huge piece of s*** competitively, and nobody here wants that. This is the reason why people don't want to talk of imbalance in SC2, to me. | ||
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graniten
Sweden36 Posts
Well I still think that is too black and white for an actual discussion. I don't even know how you are comparing magnitudes of an EMP with the DPS of a marine. I think you can chalk it up to more of a meta-game shift where people are realizing the importance of the ghost, the "buff" just helped to initiate that shift. well everything is connected, if you lower the dps for marines you maybe can reach balance that way. I just think its better to lower the emp, because everything is goning to be decided about if the terran got hes emp off in the future maybe thats fun idk. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On August 13 2011 23:28 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: We'll figure out if Starcraft 2 is actually imbalanced in about 10 years or more, until then it's just baseless whining. Name one "clear" imbalance, please. What would it be? Forcefields, that aren't as strong now as they were a couple of months ago because people adapt, infestors that get weaker as more terran/protoss players learn to use EMP/feedback or the all time favorite marauder that gets less and less used as people adapt? Is terran doing better than other races at this point? Not really, in fact, if you correct for population, they're doing the worst of all three in Korea. There are just flat out more terran players at a top level, especially in Korea, mainly because of the balance state at the beginning of the game. That means that, on average, yes, there are more better terran players than protoss or zerg players, so in a way, they are correct. The problem is that different beople in the community had different opinions on what imbalance even means. The discussion is itself imbalanced because people have different perspectives. Right now, SC2 is very hard countery, so it makes it even harder to make a good judgement. Banelings? Look broken as hell against infantry. BFH? Same, give or take, with added screams of IMBA when let loose on resource lines. Collossi and Broods? Ridiculous against anything on the ground. But put them against things they aren't designed specifically to ROFLstomp and they look sub-par, even silly. Given the way SC2 is designed, imbalance is more going to be found in build orders and timings rather than specific units. The current 1-1-1 T v P build may well be imbalanced. It's not an all-in, it's supremely hard to stop, can win flat out and is guaranteed to do significant damage. Right now there seems to be no reason NOT to do it. If in three months toss still can't find a way to counter it that's not dependent on the map, that's surely a fair argument that the build is imbalanced? Maps play a ridiculous amount in these discussions, though, and few people seem to realize that. | ||
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Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
well... at least most of the time it does | ||
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GurZtly
Austria148 Posts
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Jitensha
Sweden68 Posts
Vanilla SF4 tiers were moving quite a lot the first year after release (Rufus and Gief dominating most MUs in the first months which slowly transitioned into Sagat/Ryu/Gouki). And people complained. Maybe with less cussing, but there were indeed complaints in both the westener scene (SRK) and the japanese scene. Saying anything else would be looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. On a side note, I'd like to repeat the argument that the average fighter has tens of characters whereas SC2's predecessor had 3 decently balanced races. SF4's equivalent had 80% of the cast rendered useless because they stood no real chance against the most popular and "easiest" character. It's easier to ignore the worthless characters when you still have 5-10 viable choices left. | ||
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