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Pick Your Power Mafia 3! - Page 8

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
January 03 2011 04:17 GMT
#141
Oh do you need slots filled? If that is the case

/In
Together but separate, like oatmeal
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
January 03 2011 04:41 GMT
#142
Lol @ LSB's plan. Why am I so tempted to join this game...
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
January 03 2011 04:45 GMT
#143
And oh boy compvig is in this game again. If this game goes like the last two we're not going to be seeing the strategic depth I was hoping for...
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
January 03 2011 05:10 GMT
#144
Compvig always taken by Mafia man.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
January 03 2011 05:43 GMT
#145
On January 03 2011 13:16 kitaman27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
2. There are two doctors. So even if the mafia knows where two of the most powerful roles are (JOAT, Bullet Bill). It shouldn’t be a problem as we can protect them every single time.


What about the fact that the medics identities will be public too? Couldn't they be picked off day one?

Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:3. The mafia only has 1 kp. So at best, they can only take out one good role a night


Town has to worry about 2 kp because the SK will likely be sniping good roles as well. It is unlikely that any of these kills will be blocked if the veteran, bulletproof, hider are all public and the medics are sitting ducks.

Would it be better for the anti-town roles to be predetermined so the town has some control over them, while the pro-town roles remain hidden? That would result in some overlap in role selection, however important roles like bullet bill and alignment cop won't be taken out so easily.

All right, in order to understand this fully, you have to understand one thing

Clash is equivilant to a mafia kill / SK kill

Lets say that in my plan, I was assigned the DT and you the Medic. All right, mafia might spend on of their KPs and take out the DT

Now, lets say we just randomly choose roles. I picked DT, and you picked DT. Sure the mafia 'doesn't know where the medic is' but we have no medic.

Frankly, yeah, one of our DT/Medics will die. But we got 19 other blue roles to draw up on. The point of the plan is to eliminate clash in role selection so that we get an obcene amount of information.

If you still don't understand, try propsing a solution.
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
January 03 2011 05:47 GMT
#146
On January 03 2011 14:43 LSB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 13:16 kitaman27 wrote:
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
2. There are two doctors. So even if the mafia knows where two of the most powerful roles are (JOAT, Bullet Bill). It shouldn’t be a problem as we can protect them every single time.


What about the fact that the medics identities will be public too? Couldn't they be picked off day one?

On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:3. The mafia only has 1 kp. So at best, they can only take out one good role a night


Town has to worry about 2 kp because the SK will likely be sniping good roles as well. It is unlikely that any of these kills will be blocked if the veteran, bulletproof, hider are all public and the medics are sitting ducks.

Would it be better for the anti-town roles to be predetermined so the town has some control over them, while the pro-town roles remain hidden? That would result in some overlap in role selection, however important roles like bullet bill and alignment cop won't be taken out so easily.

All right, in order to understand this fully, you have to understand one thing

Clash is equivilant to a mafia kill / SK kill

Lets say that in my plan, I was assigned the DT and you the Medic. All right, mafia might spend on of their KPs and take out the DT

Now, lets say we just randomly choose roles. I picked DT, and you picked DT. Sure the mafia 'doesn't know where the medic is' but we have no medic.

Frankly, yeah, one of our DT/Medics will die. But we got 19 other blue roles to draw up on. The point of the plan is to eliminate clash in role selection so that we get an obcene amount of information.

If you still don't understand, try propsing a solution.


The threat of having a medic is almost as good as actually having a medic. As you know, medic saves are quite rare. As long as mafia thinks there are medics in the game, then they can't just brashly decide to hit someone important and know with confidence that he will die. As long as no medics die, mafia always have to choose hits with the consideration that there might be medics. Town could care less if they actually exist.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
January 03 2011 05:54 GMT
#147
Can Medics self protect?

Then we get into Prisoners Delima. Lets say we order the Medics to protect LSB.

The medic has two choices, protect LSB, or don't

However, if we convince the Mafia that the medic is protecting LSB, its just as good protection as if LSB was actually protected, since mafia isn't going to make that risk
The medic is free to do whatever he wants then


Or. We could just have lots of clashes and not actually have any important roles. That would take care of the medic problem pretty fast
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
January 03 2011 05:59 GMT
#148
On January 03 2011 14:43 LSB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 13:16 kitaman27 wrote:
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
2. There are two doctors. So even if the mafia knows where two of the most powerful roles are (JOAT, Bullet Bill). It shouldn’t be a problem as we can protect them every single time.


What about the fact that the medics identities will be public too? Couldn't they be picked off day one?

On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
3. The mafia only has 1 kp. So at best, they can only take out one good role a night


Town has to worry about 2 kp because the SK will likely be sniping good roles as well. It is unlikely that any of these kills will be blocked if the veteran, bulletproof, hider are all public and the medics are sitting ducks.

Would it be better for the anti-town roles to be predetermined so the town has some control over them, while the pro-town roles remain hidden? That would result in some overlap in role selection, however important roles like bullet bill and alignment cop won't be taken out so easily.

All right, in order to understand this fully, you have to understand one thing

Clash is equivilant to a mafia kill / SK kill


I disagree. That assumes that the vanilla townie is dead. Even if a clash occurs, the vanilla role is still alive to contribute and still counts towards the win condition threshold.

Best case scenario, the clash involves a mafia and leaves them without a role. Sure, the clash is unfortunate, but I wouldn't go as far as saying its a kill.


On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
Lets say that in my plan, I was assigned the DT and you the Medic. All right, mafia might spend on of their KPs and take out the DT

Now, lets say we just randomly choose roles. I picked DT, and you picked DT. Sure the mafia 'doesn't know where the medic is' but we have no medic.


Perhaps, but I would think the town members with the lower picks would prioritize the medic and dt roles rather that the less useful roles to prevent that type of situation. So there might be some doubling on certain roles, but it would come at the loss of something like the Politician or Veteran, rather than the medic or dt.

On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
Frankly, yeah, one of our DT/Medics will die. But we got 19 other blue roles to draw up on. The point of the plan is to eliminate clash in role selection so that we get an obcene amount of information.

If you still don't understand, try propsing a solution.


I proposed that the anti-town roles be pre-determined for town manipulation while the town roles were left for selection. It also kinda takes the fun out of "pick your power" when your power is chosen for you, but I'm not strictly against your idea. If we do decide to take your course of action, we should finalize the suggested role list before the alignment pm's go out to prevent any tampering.
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
January 03 2011 06:03 GMT
#149
Medics can't self prot
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
January 03 2011 06:11 GMT
#150
Taking out the watcher role? For shame. Well I guess it was completely broken *wink*
Together but separate, like oatmeal
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
January 03 2011 06:13 GMT
#151
On January 03 2011 14:59 kitaman27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 14:43 LSB wrote:
On January 03 2011 13:16 kitaman27 wrote:
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
2. There are two doctors. So even if the mafia knows where two of the most powerful roles are (JOAT, Bullet Bill). It shouldn’t be a problem as we can protect them every single time.


What about the fact that the medics identities will be public too? Couldn't they be picked off day one?

On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
3. The mafia only has 1 kp. So at best, they can only take out one good role a night


Town has to worry about 2 kp because the SK will likely be sniping good roles as well. It is unlikely that any of these kills will be blocked if the veteran, bulletproof, hider are all public and the medics are sitting ducks.

Would it be better for the anti-town roles to be predetermined so the town has some control over them, while the pro-town roles remain hidden? That would result in some overlap in role selection, however important roles like bullet bill and alignment cop won't be taken out so easily.

All right, in order to understand this fully, you have to understand one thing

Clash is equivilant to a mafia kill / SK kill


I disagree. That assumes that the vanilla townie is dead. Even if a clash occurs, the vanilla role is still alive to contribute and still counts towards the win condition threshold.

Not really.
Lets look at the two senarios

A) 1 DT 1 Medic. Mafia shoots the medic
Result? 1 DT left
B) 1DT 1 Townie. Mafia shoots a random person
Result? 50% 1 DT left. 50% 1 Townie left

Its like me taking a doller from you. Heads you keep the doller. Tails I keep it.
Not good chance.


Best case scenario, the clash involves a mafia and leaves them without a role. Sure, the clash is unfortunate, but I wouldn't go as far as saying its a kill.

Sure the mafia will always get a role. We alreday denied the good roles, so the role is kindof useless for the mafia.

Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
Lets say that in my plan, I was assigned the DT and you the Medic. All right, mafia might spend on of their KPs and take out the DT

Now, lets say we just randomly choose roles. I picked DT, and you picked DT. Sure the mafia 'doesn't know where the medic is' but we have no medic.


Perhaps, but I would think the town members with the lower picks would prioritize the medic and dt roles rather that the less useful roles to prevent that type of situation. So there might be some doubling on certain roles, but it would come at the loss of something like the Politician or Veteran, rather than the medic or dt.

Why would we want to give up a Veteran Role?

I guess we could do somethig like spot 6 be 50% doctor 50% vet
And spot 21 be 100% doctor.

But thats radfield's plan, and yeah, mafia still shot the DT night one.

Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
Frankly, yeah, one of our DT/Medics will die. But we got 19 other blue roles to draw up on. The point of the plan is to eliminate clash in role selection so that we get an obcene amount of information.

If you still don't understand, try propsing a solution.


I proposed that the anti-town roles be pre-determined for town manipulation while the town roles were left for selection. It also kinda takes the fun out of "pick your power" when your power is chosen for you, but I'm not strictly against your idea. If we do decide to take your course of action, we should finalize the suggested role list before the alignment pm's go out to prevent any tampering.

1) Higher seeded players will be the ones who get roles, so the mafia probably will hit high anyways
2) Think of the number picking phase, everyone picking random numbers will have a LOT of clashes. Do you think that having the whole town do that is going to be any better?
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
January 03 2011 06:15 GMT
#152
On January 03 2011 15:11 bumatlarge wrote:
Taking out the watcher role? For shame. Well I guess it was completely broken *wink*

Who knows? Maybe you'll get politican and then we find out that it too is completly broken!
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
Node
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States2159 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-03 07:16:11
January 03 2011 07:15 GMT
#153
edit: never mind
whole lies with a half smile
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
January 04 2011 03:04 GMT
#154
New Proposed Role Picking List

I'm moving the copy cat up because of a possible mafia combo. (Day 1 Vig shoots CPR Doc, copycat gets lost somewhere.)

With the Copy Cat higher on the role list, it should be easier to determine what happened.

I have moved down the Janitor. Although the Janitor might be dangerous. It's not as dangerous as a rouge Copy Cat.

Proposed Role Picking list
1. CPR Doc
2. Comp Vig
3. Copy Cat
4. JOAT
5. Bullet Bill
6. Doctor
7. Doctor
8. Role Cop
9. Alignment Cop
10. Role Blocker
11. Janitor
12. Prince of Darkness
13. Day Vig
14. Pardoner
15. Politican
16. Mason
17. Hider
18. Bulletproof
19. Veteran
20. God Father
21. Random a role[
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
Barundar
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark1582 Posts
January 04 2011 05:10 GMT
#155
Although the Janitor might be dangerous. It's not as dangerous as a rouge Copy Cat.
Urgh... bad wow flashback
Bartundar
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
January 04 2011 15:15 GMT
#156
On January 03 2011 14:47 Incognito wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2011 14:43 LSB wrote:
On January 03 2011 13:16 kitaman27 wrote:
On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:
2. There are two doctors. So even if the mafia knows where two of the most powerful roles are (JOAT, Bullet Bill). It shouldn’t be a problem as we can protect them every single time.


What about the fact that the medics identities will be public too? Couldn't they be picked off day one?

On January 03 2011 10:50 LSB wrote:3. The mafia only has 1 kp. So at best, they can only take out one good role a night


Town has to worry about 2 kp because the SK will likely be sniping good roles as well. It is unlikely that any of these kills will be blocked if the veteran, bulletproof, hider are all public and the medics are sitting ducks.

Would it be better for the anti-town roles to be predetermined so the town has some control over them, while the pro-town roles remain hidden? That would result in some overlap in role selection, however important roles like bullet bill and alignment cop won't be taken out so easily.

All right, in order to understand this fully, you have to understand one thing

Clash is equivilant to a mafia kill / SK kill

Lets say that in my plan, I was assigned the DT and you the Medic. All right, mafia might spend on of their KPs and take out the DT

Now, lets say we just randomly choose roles. I picked DT, and you picked DT. Sure the mafia 'doesn't know where the medic is' but we have no medic.

Frankly, yeah, one of our DT/Medics will die. But we got 19 other blue roles to draw up on. The point of the plan is to eliminate clash in role selection so that we get an obcene amount of information.

If you still don't understand, try propsing a solution.


The threat of having a medic is almost as good as actually having a medic. As you know, medic saves are quite rare. As long as mafia thinks there are medics in the game, then they can't just brashly decide to hit someone important and know with confidence that he will die. As long as no medics die, mafia always have to choose hits with the consideration that there might be medics. Town could care less if they actually exist.

Agreed! By far the most important thing is keeping the mafia from having perfect information. Actual roles can help depending on how things develop, but they are not the end-all in these games and surely not worth giving the mafia full (or even too much) info.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
January 04 2011 16:01 GMT
#157
citi.zen, you playing?

And this wouldn't be the first game where we gave mafia perfect information. In PYP2, besides for the traitor role, mafia basically knew where every single other role was.
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 17:00:12
January 04 2011 16:34 GMT
#158
No, I am not. It's tempting since I love pyp, but no time...

In pyp 2 the town gave away too much for my taste but there was still ambiguit: people were instructed to rng between defensive and other roles. The threat of the meth man was real for instance.

Edit: many of these conversations were had already and some version of my views is in pyp 1 and 2 so I will stop taking up air time better used by actual players.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
aidnai
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1159 Posts
January 04 2011 18:35 GMT
#159
wow, I thought the game had started without me when I saw 8 pages all of a sudden, and not much of it spam!

So, did we decide yet if clashing is good or bad for town? Also, LSB, why not move up day vig instead of copy cat? Unless the plan is to lose a really good role right off the bat, copy cat is probably gonna end up with something lame, right?
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
January 04 2011 18:40 GMT
#160
This is the problems I'm thinking of.

Lets pretend the copy cat is at position #19 or something low.
Say the day vig kills the CPR doc day 1. But apparently someone else took the copy cat role and Position 19 never got it.
That leaves 17 other candidates for the copycat role.

The key thing is that if the day vig uses his ability. We know where he is. But we won't know where the copy cat is.

By placing the copy cat up high, we solve this problem because it leaves only 3 possible locations for where the copy cat it.


Number Clashing is good for the town as it adds an element of randomness to the draft order
Role Clashing is bad for the town as it lessens the amount of blue roles.
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
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