EPTIf you are hatching late, shouldn't you assume some sort of natural block, dismissing the exact timing of your hatch timing anyways? And if you pool first shouldn't you automatically include a pair of lings in your build orders to help take out that bunker/pylon? Normally I wouldn't suggest something that happens in game to use for number crunching, but nat blocks are almost a standard in most games, ALWAYS on 2 player maps, and often on 4 player maps.
[D] Is hatch first really more economical? - Page 8
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
If you are hatching late, shouldn't you assume some sort of natural block, dismissing the exact timing of your hatch timing anyways? And if you pool first shouldn't you automatically include a pair of lings in your build orders to help take out that bunker/pylon? Normally I wouldn't suggest something that happens in game to use for number crunching, but nat blocks are almost a standard in most games, ALWAYS on 2 player maps, and often on 4 player maps. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
http://tinyurl.com/35o22a5
It will have about the same mineral than the OP's 16pool/17hatch ( http://tinyurl.com/26zm42t ), but 60 more gas at the 7min mark. You can swap between 18 Extractor or 21 Extractor whether you prefer to have 50 extra min or gas. Toying with the app will show you that most "pool first" variations are more or less equivalent. 15pool/14hatch, 15pool/15hatch, 16pool/15hatch, 14pool/14hatch, etc will all have slightly more resources than the OP's 16pool/17hatch. Of course this is all theorycraft, but even in game, that extra 15sec for the 16pool seems to be forever. Edit: This said I have to agree with the OP's conclusion: I've yet to find a hatch first BO that can match the economy of the above BO. This is all theorycraft assuming no block though, an assertion that can very often go wrong in the real world. | ||
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
On November 29 2010 23:14 Phrencys wrote: I don't see any reason to delay pool up to 16. At this point you'll be larva starved and have about 350 mineral when you reach 16, so I think 15 should be your target. And at this point, the difference between 15pool/17hatch and a more "standard" 14pool/16 hatch is negligible. The reason is that when you pool you loose that drone. So you pool at 16 to mine a few more minerals with that drone - kind of stupid but this is the nature of Build optimizers. I also played a lot on finding the most "economical build" and i find that i do not know what to do with the minerals/gas. My conclusion, at least for now, is that the opening depends on what units you want and even then all the variations are very close. You need to have a very good plan, how do i defend this? The BO in op gets a pair of zerglings then Lair you die with that build the only difference is that you die with a lot of minerals/gas  In my opinion the first 2 lings are for scout only, to defend you need to opt for: 1.Metabolic Boost, then you can build speedlimgs when you need, this seems to be the best but for this you need 100gas very fast because the upgrade takes a long time so you will have a BO with Pool, Gas or Gas, Pool. 2. Roach, This seems a very good because you can delay the gas and you spend the minerals on RW also you do not need so much larva. But you need to have the Roach before they push and if they push with Marauder, Stacker you are dead. 3. Spines, they cost a lot, you loose drones and they are static, but you need zero gas and you can have a beast economy with 3 spines 3 queens. I see IdrA doing this while he rush for hydra. 4. Only queens? i never tested this but i think this is the only build viable for hatch first. But this would suggest that you want to fast tech and you do not need neither speedlings nor Roaches, maybe infestor muta or some other crazy things but i think you are dead by then. when i try to compare my econ builds vs what a terran or protos can do, SURPRISE! they can out macro you hard! Try a forge expand with constant probe and cronoboost! You are so behind if you do not attack it even if you go 2 hatch first The same for Terran, you let the Terran fast expand with 2 base 2 Mule he will build a doom army and crush you with all your economy and ability to replace the army very fast. So, when you think of your opening BO try to think also, how can i attack if he will fast expand. Thats why for me is Metabolic Boost or Roach. If you guys have a hatch first build that is viable on ladder, please post the full BO and i think i can find an alternative pool first build that is better than yours. The only argument that i find valid for hatch first is the faster creep, but i could not use that. Edit: i just remember, hatch first i very hard to block, so this can be another reason, i know that hatch first is a little worse but i want to be sure i am not blocked. You need a fast hatch! you just do not need it before pool. While you can delay your hatch until 18 maybe 20 without loosing any economy you cannot delay your pool later then 16? i even find that pretty late. Finally i do not see any reason to go hatch first unless you are FruitDealer and you are soooo good that it doesn`t matter and you go Hatch first just because you can! | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 30 2010 01:05 ZomgTossRush wrote: For you number crunchers out there, here is another point you might want to consider. If you are hatching late, shouldn't you assume some sort of natural block, dismissing the exact timing of your hatch timing anyways? And if you pool first shouldn't you automatically include a pair of lings in your build orders to help take out that bunker/pylon? Normally I wouldn't suggest something that happens in game to use for number crunching, but nat blocks are almost a standard in most games, ALWAYS on 2 player maps, and often on 4 player maps. Nat blocking can happen with hatch first too, and is IMO much more devastating as you're stuck with no extra hatch AND a late pool. | ||
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Andre112
Canada52 Posts
now my question is the gas timing. when do you get gas for speedling/roaches to stop early stalker or marine pressure? | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 30 2010 01:51 Phrencys wrote: http://tinyurl.com/35o22a5
I've yet to find a hatch first BO that can match the economy of the above BO. Perhaps you should take a look at the testing being done in this thread. I tested the build order you provided, and it currently ranks behind a hatch first build. To preempt your criticisms, I could extend the time from 6 minutes to 7 minutes, but I suspect it won't make much difference. Also, in this thread we are excluding gas, because attempting to compare the relative value of gas to minerals is a subjective and unquantifiable variable that can safely be excluded for the sake of measuring efficiency of mining and production. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481 | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On November 27 2010 08:56 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote: Pool first is 100% better than hatch first in every single scenario. Since there are pro gamers that hatch first, many people will mindlessly copy without question. If you run a side-by-side comparison and race to 50 drones, you'll find that hatch first and pool first both reach it at about the same time. The only difference is, pool first grants you much more flexibility and is a safer opening build. There is absolutely no reason to hatch first in any matchup, on any map, ever. First of all Pool first is 100% better in every scenario but pros still hatch first? I agree, pool first is better, but try not to contradict yourself within the same two sentence paragraph. | ||
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
I looked at a replay from FruitDealer and compared it with the one on first post. Below are the larva timings until 5 min mark (only the larva that differ) 16 Pool, 17 Hatch, 16 OV, 16 queen, 21 Gas Base 1: 4:37 > 4:37 > 4:37 > 4:37 > 4:57 Base 2: 4:17 > 4:32 > 4:47 15 Hatch, 14 Pool, 16 OV, 17 Gas, 16 Queen Base 1: 4:47 > 4:56 > 4:56 > 4:56 > 4:56 Base 2: 3:39 > 3:54 > 4:09 > 4:24 > 4:39 > 4:54 I think that pros like the hatch first because of faster larva and creep, i sow FruitDealer today holding a rush with: 16 Hatch. 15 Pool, 18 OV, 18 Zerglingx3, 21 Queen, 23 Zerglingx2 You cannot have 10 lings that fast with pool first unless you cut drones or go 9 pool but he also uses the drones at natural to hold and prevent bunkers or if against Protoss Pylons Now i tend to believe that pros are correct in doing this build but the commentators are wrong in calling it the more economic build. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 30 2010 07:29 CarbonTwelve wrote: I've been using my app (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168348) to try and get a hatch first build and similar to Lomilar's it almost never uses it. I think the reason is that having your queen out early compensates for the larva & hence gives you more drones faster, as such making the economics for it better. I'm guessing others have said as much in the thread already, just wanted to point out that my app basically confirms the results seen in Lomilar's app. Good to know that another BO optimizer agrees. Btw, I didn't know your app did zerg too, I'll have to check it out. Does it have creep tumor available as a requirement? I'd really like to see what BO optimizer thinks if you require a creep tumor by 4:30 or something. After watching Ret's game this morning where he had 75% of metalopolis covered in creep, I really think getting that early tumor is significant and would cause the BO optimizer to maybe consider going hatch first to get a 2nd queen faster. Right now, it just spits as soon as each queen spawns, but if it had to use a creep tumor with the first 25 energy, it would probably either get the first queen sooner or get a second queen sooner. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
In each build, I built an extractor at 18, although I think in the 16pool version I ordered it a little differently putting it slightly later, and therefore with more gas. At the 7 minute mark, this is what they all had: 14pool 16 hatch 625/340 58/60 6 drones 3/17 1 OL 17/25 Spawn 36/40 & 8/40 1 larva 15hatch 15pool 755/336 60/60 4 drones 7/17 1 OL 16/25 Spawn 8/40 & Just finished 1 larva (+4 coming from spawn) 15pool 16hatch (if you have to cut drones to 15pool you did something wrong or are in a 12oclock start spot, which are the worst starts for zerg) 560/356 62/68 2 drones 14/17 4 drones 3/17 4 drones 12/17 Spawn 1/40 10/40 15hatch/15pool is the clear economic winner, and it's not even close. I don't have any clue how any of you claiming to be running tests of pool-first builds showing they're economically better are testing, but you're doing something wrong. 15pool 16hatch has a higher supply count, but it's way behind on minerals, and 10 of its supply is in drones that aren't yet completed, where 15hatch has 6 more drones actively working at the 6 minute mark, and has a round of 5 drones coming up in the next second or two, as soon as the larvae from the spawn land) If you want to pool earlier for safety, fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it's the best thing to do in a lot of situations. Just don't kid yourself into saying you're also better off economically. You're not. Last bit of interest, the stats for 11pool 18hatch: (hatching sooner than 18 is pretty much impossible unless you don't build the early queen, which is the whole point of 11pooling anyway) 619/416 56/60 1 drone 7/17 4 drones 12/17 1OL 15/25 Spawn 29/40 33/40 This is interesting because although somebody in the thread said no hatch first build would be better economically than the 14pool 16hatch they posted, an 11 pool comes a lot closer to being as good economically than the 14pool does to matching 15hatch. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
Now i tend to believe that pros are correct in doing this build but the commentators are wrong in calling it the more economic build. A build that gets more larvae faster can either be a more economic build or a more aggressive one, depending only on how you use the larvae. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On November 30 2010 07:39 Cambam wrote: Good to know that another BO optimizer agrees. Btw, I didn't know your app did zerg too, I'll have to check it out. There are a lot of problems with build order optimizers, meaning that real, actual, in-game testing is important. An optimizer can give you ideas, or starting points, but you cannot simply take its results at face value without doing your own in-game testing | ||
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jgreen46
Canada94 Posts
nobody does these builds cause you lose to rush | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 30 2010 08:26 jgreen46 wrote: 14 hatch 15 pool is way better than these builds you're doing... nobody does these builds cause you lose to rush ... A 16 pool finishes before the 15 pool in your 14 hatch/15 pool. On a side note, I held off a proxy 9 pylon, 9 gate, 9 gate pretty easily on the ladder yesterday with 16 pool/ 15 hatch (I didn't make the hatch, because his proxy was in my natural). | ||
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xJaCEx
155 Posts
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Fenam
6 Posts
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
On November 30 2010 07:29 CarbonTwelve wrote: I've been using my app (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168348) to try and get a hatch first build and similar to Lomilar's it almost never uses it. I think the reason is that having your queen out early compensates for the larva & hence gives you more drones faster, as such making the economics for it better. I'm guessing others have said as much in the thread already, just wanted to point out that my app basically confirms the results seen in Lomilar's app. Yes, but that is exactly the problem with you apps, they give you the fastest way to something. But how a bout the most economic build that can also hold a rush? Something versatile... If you say, i need a BO but i know what i want to build only after i scout, i might want 10 lings ASAP, i might want strong economy or, i don`t know, i have not played so much as a pro does... If you want to test take a real life situation, a game. I took FruitDealer`s game today. He went: # Startup build delay = 2 seconds 10 Overlord 15 Hatchery 14 Spawning Pool 16 Overlord 16 Zergling [3] 19 Queen > Spawn Larvae 21 Zergling [6] Other things to note: 1. Scout at 1:15 dies at 2:40 2. has 8 lings + 3probes (16 total probes) to defend natural at 4:14 when marines push, if he had less he would of lost an OV and some probes for sure. 3. he holds the push at 4:50 with 18 zerglins (he lost all of them) and is left with 16 drones 1 queen 2 base 4. he takes 3 drones and protects the ramp for any bunkers before he has the lings, i will ignore this because i do not have how to test it I put those into your app and what i get is: # Startup build delay = 2 seconds 10 Extractor Trick 11 Overlord 11 Spawning Pool 15 Queen > Spawn Larvae 18 Hatchery 17 Overlord 17 Zergling [4] 22 Zergling [5] If you compare those on Haploid BO at 5:00 min mark yours has 646 minerals and FruitDealer`s has 885, there is also some larva mismatch between your app and Haploids so your build also finishes later. And anyway your build start way before scouting... so you could not go 11pool all the games... Also your app uses supply block to maximize the build but in real game you cannot afford this because you have to be able to produce units right away if a push is coming. While you app is amazing and i spent a lot playing with it, what pros use seems to be better even if at first we do not understand why. Day9 said in a daily that you should copy a pros BO like a monkey an play a few times, in time you would understand why he did it that way. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On November 30 2010 07:39 Cambam wrote: Good to know that another BO optimizer agrees. Btw, I didn't know your app did zerg too, I'll have to check it out. Yeah, I need to find a mod to change the thread title. It'll support Terran too soon (hopefully soon, working on it now). Does it have creep tumor available as a requirement? I'd really like to see what BO optimizer thinks if you require a creep tumor by 4:30 or something. After watching Ret's game this morning where he had 75% of metalopolis covered in creep, I really think getting that early tumor is significant and would cause the BO optimizer to maybe consider going hatch first to get a 2nd queen faster. Right now, it just spits as soon as each queen spawns, but if it had to use a creep tumor with the first 25 energy, it would probably either get the first queen sooner or get a second queen sooner. You can specify the number of creep tumors you want. I think there's a bug with it though as requesting say 5 creep tumors and 10 drones works fine, but if you do 5 creep tumors and 30 drones it starts going crazy and never satisfies the target. Will play with that one a bit more... On November 30 2010 07:53 Skrag wrote: There are a lot of problems with build order optimizers, meaning that real, actual, in-game testing is important. An optimizer can give you ideas, or starting points, but you cannot simply take its results at face value without doing your own in-game testing Absolutely, I'd agree with that. On November 30 2010 09:10 icezar wrote: Yes, but that is exactly the problem with you apps, they give you the fastest way to something. But how a bout the most economic build that can also hold a rush? Something versatile... If you say, i need a BO but i know what i want to build only after i scout, i might want 10 lings ASAP, i might want strong economy or, i don`t know, i have not played so much as a pro does... The way I see it, that just means you need to specify your waypoint requirements more finely (and possibly with options I haven't got available yet). So for your example, it sounds like what you need is scout at time X, then have a requirement for 5 larvae & Y drones to be available at time Z. Again, I'm not saying that the BO optimiser should be the final result of anything, but I do believe that any requirements for what you want in game can be specified, it's just up to me to provide a way to specify them. Assuming you have specified what you want correctly, I'm fairly confident that my app can provide the best way to do it. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 30 2010 09:30 CarbonTwelve wrote: Yeah, I need to find a mod to change the thread title. It'll support Terran too soon (hopefully soon, working on it now). You can specify the number of creep tumors you want. I think there's a bug with it though as requesting say 5 creep tumors and 10 drones works fine, but if you do 5 creep tumors and 30 drones it starts going crazy and never satisfies the target. Will play with that one a bit more... How about a relevant question that is being ignored? Do all these "optimizers" and "build testers" value drone mining equally, or do they factor in diminishing marginal value relative to increasing marginal saturation? If they do not do this, then all of these pool first results are wrong. In the testing I have done so far, hatch first is ALWAYS ahead in total minerals mined. Unless someone can produce a replay that can surpass 2710 minerals mined or 44.58 drones by the 6 minute mark, then all of these discussed builds are inferior to the builds leading on my thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481 This discussion is also irrelevant because at no time does anyone provide sufficient data or even define the preferred variables in testing a builds "economy" in order to make any kind of meaningful comparison from one to another. EDIT: Sorry, I double posted this one... | ||
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