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On October 14 2009 15:31 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2009 19:38 spinesheath wrote:
Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well. Um, running vs getting hit is irrelevant. I'm talking about when you're actually advancing. HT are generally safe when they are in the actual Protoss expansion... it's when you're moving out to pressure hte Zerg that the HT get sniped by mutas. Thus when you're moving your armies I often see DA going out ahead in huge engagements (while the APM is being used to storm, etc). It's just the cost of managing another unit. DA can take quite a bit less hits from hydras than archons as well. They are quite the easy target to snipe. And it's still the same concept as arbiters, toss usually are focusing attention elsewhere. The only reason you don't notice it with TvP is because turrets take FOREVER to kill the fucking arbiter which has a ton of hp. So if a DA does the same vs hydralisks, it's done in a second. Just like how if an arbiter does that and goliaths are around, it's done in seconds. That's how I view it at least, and have experienced it from personal use.
The DA has Zealots and Archons as meatshields, which both are not outrun by a DA. The DA only gets far ahead if you attack move past your opponents army, and even then it's most likely that most hydras will focus on Zealots instead. DAs have quite a low priority there, both for the AI and the human, since they are less effective against hydras/lurks/lings. And I assume that if the zerg has the additional APM to focus the DA, the toss has the APM to retreat it. In most VODs where I saw DAs, they lived through the whole battle and were left behind just like we see it with Arbiters. Only once I saw a zerg snipe a DA, and that one strayed off the main army without a good reason.
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On October 14 2009 15:31 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2009 19:38 spinesheath wrote:
Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well. Um, running vs getting hit is irrelevant. I'm talking about when you're actually advancing. HT are generally safe when they are in the actual Protoss expansion... it's when you're moving out to pressure hte Zerg that the HT get sniped by mutas. Thus when you're moving your armies I often see DA going out ahead in huge engagements (while the APM is being used to storm, etc). It's just the cost of managing another unit. DA can take quite a bit less hits from hydras than archons as well. They are quite the easy target to snipe. And it's still the same concept as arbiters, toss usually are focusing attention elsewhere. The only reason you don't notice it with TvP is because turrets take FOREVER to kill the fucking arbiter which has a ton of hp. So if a DA does the same vs hydralisks, it's done in a second. Just like how if an arbiter does that and goliaths are around, it's done in seconds. That's how I view it at least, and have experienced it from personal use.
Amber[LighT]'s Pro-TOSS tip #37:
Hotkey your Dark Archons or Arbiters to a hotkey rarely used (7 or 8). I know some Zergs do this with their defilers to keep them separated from their army. Do not use this hotkey in your army's onslaught (1-4 only!). Instead, take your roaming spell casters and click "move" on a fellow unit (Zealot, Dragoon, Archon). Then your arbiters and dark archons will stay behind as though they are high templar that move extremely slow and if you need your DA's or arbiters just click "7" and take one to use at a time.
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Yayba was doing exactly FE Dark Archon build in PvZ on Polish WCG
He got 2nd.
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On October 14 2009 04:24 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2009 04:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
If you want to see why Dark Archons suck go watch JangBi vs RorO.
And yes, Roro was aware of the DA. + Show Spoiler +That wasn't the DA's fault, really. Having 0 defense against mutas isn't advisable, even if you have a DA. And in various other occasions JangBi made some serious mistakes (losing 2 HTs in the middle of the map, miles from his army, losing a full shuttle, ...). Having 2 HTs and 2 Zealots instead wouldn't have made a difference in that game.
But the lack of cannons might be a direct result of using DA. Jangbi probably cut some corners in his build to insure the storm timing isn't delayed too badly.
Regardless, the speed zerg can switch tech vs protoss lies its huge advantage. Especially since PvZ is so reliant on army composition.
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On October 14 2009 19:41 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2009 15:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 13 2009 19:38 spinesheath wrote:
Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well. Um, running vs getting hit is irrelevant. I'm talking about when you're actually advancing. HT are generally safe when they are in the actual Protoss expansion... it's when you're moving out to pressure hte Zerg that the HT get sniped by mutas. Thus when you're moving your armies I often see DA going out ahead in huge engagements (while the APM is being used to storm, etc). It's just the cost of managing another unit. DA can take quite a bit less hits from hydras than archons as well. They are quite the easy target to snipe. And it's still the same concept as arbiters, toss usually are focusing attention elsewhere. The only reason you don't notice it with TvP is because turrets take FOREVER to kill the fucking arbiter which has a ton of hp. So if a DA does the same vs hydralisks, it's done in a second. Just like how if an arbiter does that and goliaths are around, it's done in seconds. That's how I view it at least, and have experienced it from personal use. Amber[LighT]'s Pro-TOSS tip #37: Hotkey your Dark Archons or Arbiters to a hotkey rarely used (7 or 8). I know some Zergs do this with their defilers to keep them separated from their army. Do not use this hotkey in your army's onslaught (1-4 only!). Instead, take your roaming spell casters and click "move" on a fellow unit (Zealot, Dragoon, Archon). Then your arbiters and dark archons will stay behind as though they are high templar that move extremely slow and if you need your DA's or arbiters just click "7" and take one to use at a time.
Hey, I do this all the time in TvP with vessels. Works great. Should try it with DA's too.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
It's very easy to lose track of which unit is still alive and which is dead since it's impossible to tell which one you've been following.
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On October 14 2009 21:41 BluzMan wrote:
It's very easy to lose track of which unit is still alive and which is dead since it's impossible to tell which one you've been following.
wut??
that comment is a bit confusing.
I was also thinking that you just select your DA and right click a HT. That way the DA is going to "protect" the unit you clicked and will go at the same speed as them, that means that as the HT is going slow your DA is also going to be on the back of the herd.
Actually having it close to a HT is exactly what you want since after a Maelstrom you want to Storm those units right away.
I have been finding it difficult to create the DA since you have to scout well what is the zerg doing to know if you are going to put more zealots or create more Cannons/Gates/Tech...
yesterday most zergs were playing against FE by going 3hatch lings+speed instead of going hydra or mutas... Me as a D/D+ player find it really difficult to differentiate the builds since they deny my scouts...
so again we do have to know WHEN to create the DAs and When NOT to... That is the difficult part and maybe why gosus are not using it right now.. But if we figure out WHEN to stick those DAs I guess they do make a huge change on how the MU is played right now.
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well, if you keep dying to 3 hatch lings, da or not u wont live until then anyways :x
EITHER WAY >_>'' kinda out of topic. I think a good indication of joining up the 2 dt's is
1) Sair scouts a spire
2) Zerg nat and 3rd is well sunkened and OL'd. (means u dont think you can do damage to them)
3) no 4th gas for zerg yet (scout with the dt's or something)
then get maelstrom right after storm research. (cut 2 goons for 2 lots or something)
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If you watched Bisu vs. Shine last night:
+ Show Spoiler +Shine beat Bisu in the last game with massive templar-sniping. Bisu got rolled due to lack of storms.
The toss midgame army's strength is pretty much invested in High-Templar and your skills with storm. Zerg now-a-days are more than content to charge and sacrifice 9 mutas to kill 4+ High Templar. Without HT's, zerg production can roll over the protoss midgame army, stop the third expansion, and move to contain.
The way I see it, Dark Archons are necessary to stop this new trend.
There are a few arguments against Dark Archon Usage thus far, and I'll address them all.
1) Resources are too precious to be spent on Dark Archons, rather than more units. Dark archons can stop muta harass in its tracks, and save you 600+ Gas in High Templar casualties from muta sniping. In addition, since two DT's are often made in most Toss builds already, only Maelstrom is needed to introduce DA's into any protoss build. Dark Archons fit right into the build seamlessly. Scout a spire with your crosair? Start Maelstrom research and fuse your DTs.
2) Dark Archons require too much APM. Dark Archons are already being used at the pro-level, and the only use I am pitching in this thread is to prevent templar sniping. People somehow think that they have to spam maelstorm over the entire zerg army, when only a click on a stack of mutas is needed for the Dark Archon to pay for itself.
I mean, there really is no downside to adding them to your build. I'm not saying you should actively use them throughout the game (although that would be ideal), but just stop muta-sniping in the mid game, which has become too much of a problem for Protoss recently.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
I knew that shit would surface. Maybe, just maybe this has something to do with the fact that + Show Spoiler +BISU HAD NO FUCKING ANTI-AIR SAVE FOR DRAGOON AND A SINGLE ARCHON MIGHT HAVE SAVED HIS SORRY ASS OR MAYBE AT LEAST THOSE TWO CORSAIRS HE LOST FOR FUCKING NOTHING
+ Show Spoiler +Relax, I'm anrgy at Bisu, not at you.
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ah. But in order of importance its always : storm tech first, temp energy second, and then additional upgrades. But it IS a waste of gas to upgrade those extra upgrades as well as commit to more than 1 DA. This might be a solid idea late game when you're on 3-4 gas.
 if not watch Horang2 vs Hyuk on HBR. Horang2 went for some DA stuff and got rolled by a 3 hatch hydra push
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On October 15 2009 01:32 BluzMan wrote:I knew that shit would surface. Maybe, just maybe this has something to do with the fact that + Show Spoiler +BISU HAD NO FUCKING ANTI-AIR SAVE FOR DRAGOON AND A SINGLE ARCHON MIGHT HAVE SAVED HIS SORRY ASS OR MAYBE AT LEAST THOSE TWO CORSAIRS HE LOST FOR FUCKING NOTHING but yeah ofc he should've gotten a DA. Nice judgement, simply nice. + Show Spoiler +Relax, I'm anrgy at Bisu, not at you.
Well to respond to spoiler 1:
+ Show Spoiler +Arguably, a Dark Archon is more cost effective than building more crosairs or goons resource-wise. Or at the very least, protoss early-midgame pushes can use more zealots if a dark archon is made instead of a few goons.
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You don't need DA. All you need is more sairs and disruption web. Easier and cheaper than playing with DA/HT/army combo.
This way sairs not only can protect your HTs from muta sniping, but can also greatly help in dismantling hydras (if some of your HTs got sniped anyway).
Edit: If you need a beacon for dweb then forget that. Just get more sairs and more speedlots.
+ Show Spoiler +
I really couldn't watch this big battle when Bisus lots were BEHIND his goons for the most part of the engagement.
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On October 15 2009 01:32 BluzMan wrote:I knew that shit would surface. Maybe, just maybe this has something to do with the fact that + Show Spoiler +BISU HAD NO FUCKING ANTI-AIR SAVE FOR DRAGOON AND A SINGLE ARCHON MIGHT HAVE SAVED HIS SORRY ASS OR MAYBE AT LEAST THOSE TWO CORSAIRS HE LOST FOR FUCKING NOTHING but yeah ofc he should've gotten a DA. Nice judgement, simply nice. + Show Spoiler +Relax, I'm anrgy at Bisu, not at you.
Well to respond to spoiler 1:
+ Show Spoiler +Arguably, a Dark Archon is more cost effective than building more crosairs or goons resource-wise. Or at the very least, protoss early-midgame pushes can use more zealots if a dark archon is made instead of a few goons.
On October 15 2009 02:03 DreaM)XeRO wrote:ah. But in order of importance its always : storm tech first, temp energy second, and then additional upgrades. But it IS a waste of gas to upgrade those extra upgrades as well as commit to more than 1 DA. This might be a solid idea late game when you're on 3-4 gas. if not watch Horang2 vs Hyuk on HBR. Horang2 went for some DA stuff and got rolled by a 3 hatch hydra push
Well this is a different scenario. IMO, Dark Archons are only an effective solution when the zerg is opening 5 hat hydra with spire. The dark archon can nullify muta harass and pay for itself. It's also easily scoutable with your first crosair and an easy transition from any protoss FE opening.
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On October 15 2009 02:27 Manit0u wrote:You don't need DA. All you need is more sairs and disruption web. Easier and cheaper than playing with DA/HT/army combo. This way sairs not only can protect your HTs from muta sniping, but can also greatly help in dismantling hydras (if some of your HTs got sniped anyway).
Edit: If you need a beacon for dweb then forget that. Just get more sairs and more speedlots.
+ Show Spoiler +
I really couldn't watch this big battle when Bisus lots were BEHIND his goons for the most part of the engagement.
Obviously you don't have a clue about Protoss so it's safe to say your post was pretty wasteful, and you suggested disruption web which is rather lulzy. I would easily go for maelstrom over disruption web anyday.
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On October 15 2009 02:45 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2009 02:27 Manit0u wrote:You don't need DA. All you need is more sairs and disruption web. Easier and cheaper than playing with DA/HT/army combo. This way sairs not only can protect your HTs from muta sniping, but can also greatly help in dismantling hydras (if some of your HTs got sniped anyway).
Edit: If you need a beacon for dweb then forget that. Just get more sairs and more speedlots.
+ Show Spoiler +
I really couldn't watch this big battle when Bisus lots were BEHIND his goons for the most part of the engagement.
Obviously you don't have a clue about Protoss so it's safe to say your post was pretty wasteful, and you suggested disruption web which is rather lulzy. I would easily go for maelstrom over disruption web anyday.
lawl -____- poor noob
Maelstrom completely immoblizes units. Dweb just renders the area under the web useless. However movement under the web is still possible.
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Yet corsairs are hte cheaper spell caster... either way irrelevant as I don't care about d-web haha.
You guys have to remember if they go lurkers you're fucked as well, what if they don't do a muta switch but a lurker switch? We keep talking about going storm -> templar energy -> maelstrom. But does that mean you're now going to have to DELAY your robo bay to get this? Remember observers are quite gas costly as well, and they are also sniped quite easily by hydras.
People aren't getting the entire sniping thing either... kinda ridiculous some of the answers. Either way, if archons and zealots are both running at you at the same time and you have hydras, what are you going to focus fire on? The archon, not the zealots. You're going to tell all the hydras in the area to snipe it asap. That happens the same with the DA. Except if you 1a2a into the hydra mass, the zealots/archons run to the nearest hydras attacking, while the DA goes to the location you actually selected on the screen. Which is hte problem. High temp aren't a problem because they lag behind and by the time they are still running up you use them.
Either way, I believe you guys will see what I mean if you practice with DA's. I've tried them myself, it's quite difficult. But I like whoever's idea to right click an HT so the DA sticks with the HT.
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Brah. When you scout with a crosair, you can adjust your build to get a DA or not. If you see a spire, research mael and fuse your two DTs. If you don't, don't.
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The concept you threw out was that since zerg go muta and snipe HT before they're effective. If instead you went Dark Archon the same muta would be able to snipe them as well and probably before they had energy. Now, if you do keep the Dark Archon alive and get at least a decent cast on the muta you will have an advantage of possibly having HT and Dark Archons on the playing field. The combination of both would be devastating. Group those with reavers/dt or even the standard protoss army and GG.
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I think a lot of people are missing the a key point of the Dark Archon usage. It's not to heavily use more DAs, or even get them "early." The point is that you end up with 1 DA in your mid-game army, as I said b4 and others have said, when you see that your two dark templar (if you go for a bisu style based harrass) will do no damage, then you end up merging them to prepare for your mid-game push out.
The key thing is that the DA has no impact on your resources except for maelstrom research, and the DA has no impact on your army size or composition either.
There are many people in the thread that keep making it out as if there is a massive resource drain or supply drain onto your army. The entire point is your entire army composition of templars, zealots, and archon remains exactly the same, the same size as it would normally be, except you have 1 Dark Archon now with accumulated energy at your disposal to prevent mid-game templar sniping when you push out.
Maybe many people have not extensively used the DA, but it is incredibly easy to maelstrom a clump of mutalisks if they get in range - and they WILL get in range because if the Z makes that group of muta, that is their purpose...to snipe templar.
Now it is just a matter of Protoss players grinding down the DA and practicing using it imo...nothing usually works the first try someone ever does it. And I did see the roro / jangbi DA game, and the problem with that game was not the inclusion of a DA, but the fact that Jangbi was greedy and built virtually zero cannons at his main and natural...
But one thing to take from that game is this - the DA did not detract at all from Jangbi's army size, he still had the same composition that he was most likely going for, and the same amount of units up until the point he loses like 20+ probes to unstacked mutas sitting over his minerals?
Aside from all of this, right now, most Zerg players are not going to go, "oh no a DA, I will not attempt muta sniping! " because the DA has not been proven in action yet.
If players keep grinding down finally using the unit for this purpose though, THEN, you'll probably see Zerg reaction of not building those same mutas when they see a DA...which indirectly accomplishes the purpose of not having your templar sniped in the first place...
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EPT
