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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 75

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mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 22 2011 17:46 GMT
#1481
On September 23 2011 01:30 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 00:45 FishForThought wrote:
Why are you people so keen in getting that pawn advantage right away while putting the formation and your limited number of attacking pieces at risk?

We should get our king out of the check lock first so we can start using our knights.

our move list should be something like:
1. a3
2. Nxe4 (assuming he moves his bishop instead of trading).
3. QxC6+ (assuming he takes our knight with his d5 pawn)
4. QxE4

There you effectively gained 2 pawn advantage while controlling the center board. Hold off getting the pawn in the next move.
a3's been refuted several times; it gives Black a pawn.

If you mean Rxb2 then it does not directly give black a pawn as you can Qxc6+ and get the pawn back. If there are losses they are later on not because of Rxb2.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 17:54:15
September 22 2011 17:54 GMT
#1482
On September 23 2011 02:46 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 01:30 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 00:45 FishForThought wrote:
Why are you people so keen in getting that pawn advantage right away while putting the formation and your limited number of attacking pieces at risk?

We should get our king out of the check lock first so we can start using our knights.

our move list should be something like:
1. a3
2. Nxe4 (assuming he moves his bishop instead of trading).
3. QxC6+ (assuming he takes our knight with his d5 pawn)
4. QxE4

There you effectively gained 2 pawn advantage while controlling the center board. Hold off getting the pawn in the next move.
a3's been refuted several times; it gives Black a pawn.

If you mean Rxb2 then it does not directly give black a pawn as you can Qxc6+ and get the pawn back. If there are losses they are later on not because of Rxb2.
Fair enough; I spoke too quickly. It doesn't actually lose a pawn.+ Show Spoiler +
It still gives Black a positional advantage imo, though.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 22 2011 17:57 GMT
#1483
On September 23 2011 02:01 TehForce wrote:
I think a3 is bad because
+ Show Spoiler +

11. a3 Nxd2
(-> Now we have to immidiatly capture the knight back because of the double-check option ..Nxf3+ which would be a disaster for us)

12. Bxd2 Bxd2+
+ Show Spoiler +

Capturing the Bishop is even worse:
12. axb4 Nxf3+
13. gxf3
Now we have 2 double pawns and black can still save his pawn
13. .. Bd7
14. Qxa7
is also no option anymore because we would lose a rook with 14. ..Ra8

13. Nxd2
Now black can defend his pawn and we are still not castled yet


Vote for Qxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
The line I am thinking is not 11.a3 Nxd2 12.Bxd2, but 11.a3 N(B)xd2 12.Nxd2 N(B)xd2 13.Bxd2 and after that black can Rxb2 or defend his pawn. Yes we have equal pawns and we did not castled yet, but if he defends his pawn we can castle if need be and if not we can take it for equal pawns. I know that 11.Qxc6+ gains (at least in short term) a pawn, I just do not like where it leads after that, that is why I am trying to explore a3.
RandomAccount#49059
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2140 Posts
September 22 2011 17:58 GMT
#1484
--- Nuked ---
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 22 2011 18:13 GMT
#1485
On September 23 2011 02:54 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 02:46 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 01:30 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 00:45 FishForThought wrote:
Why are you people so keen in getting that pawn advantage right away while putting the formation and your limited number of attacking pieces at risk?

We should get our king out of the check lock first so we can start using our knights.

our move list should be something like:
1. a3
2. Nxe4 (assuming he moves his bishop instead of trading).
3. QxC6+ (assuming he takes our knight with his d5 pawn)
4. QxE4

There you effectively gained 2 pawn advantage while controlling the center board. Hold off getting the pawn in the next move.
a3's been refuted several times; it gives Black a pawn.

If you mean Rxb2 then it does not directly give black a pawn as you can Qxc6+ and get the pawn back. If there are losses they are later on not because of Rxb2.
Fair enough; I spoke too quickly. It doesn't actually lose a pawn.+ Show Spoiler +
It still gives Black a positional advantage imo, though.

+ Show Spoiler +
That is what I am not so sure about.
After Rxb2 we can Qxc6+, Qd7 Qc3(1) he has to go away with the rook and we can castle and are in reasonably good position I feel. After Qxc6+ Bd7 it is more open but Qxd5 seems possible although I did not check all his possibilities in that scenario and some seem threatening, but ut still seems ok.
If instead of Rxb2 he plays something to save one of his pawns there are many possibilities, but the position seems ok for us on the first glance.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 22 2011 19:35 GMT
#1486
On September 23 2011 03:13 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 02:54 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 02:46 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 01:30 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 00:45 FishForThought wrote:
Why are you people so keen in getting that pawn advantage right away while putting the formation and your limited number of attacking pieces at risk?

We should get our king out of the check lock first so we can start using our knights.

our move list should be something like:
1. a3
2. Nxe4 (assuming he moves his bishop instead of trading).
3. QxC6+ (assuming he takes our knight with his d5 pawn)
4. QxE4

There you effectively gained 2 pawn advantage while controlling the center board. Hold off getting the pawn in the next move.
a3's been refuted several times; it gives Black a pawn.

If you mean Rxb2 then it does not directly give black a pawn as you can Qxc6+ and get the pawn back. If there are losses they are later on not because of Rxb2.
Fair enough; I spoke too quickly. It doesn't actually lose a pawn.+ Show Spoiler +
It still gives Black a positional advantage imo, though.

+ Show Spoiler +
That is what I am not so sure about.
After Rxb2 we can Qxc6+, Qd7 Qc3(1) he has to go away with the rook and we can castle.
+ Show Spoiler +
Rxb2 Qxc6+ Qd7 Qc3 Qb5

'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 22 2011 20:22 GMT
#1487
On September 23 2011 04:35 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 03:13 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 02:54 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 02:46 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 01:30 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 00:45 FishForThought wrote:
Why are you people so keen in getting that pawn advantage right away while putting the formation and your limited number of attacking pieces at risk?

We should get our king out of the check lock first so we can start using our knights.

our move list should be something like:
1. a3
2. Nxe4 (assuming he moves his bishop instead of trading).
3. QxC6+ (assuming he takes our knight with his d5 pawn)
4. QxE4

There you effectively gained 2 pawn advantage while controlling the center board. Hold off getting the pawn in the next move.
a3's been refuted several times; it gives Black a pawn.

If you mean Rxb2 then it does not directly give black a pawn as you can Qxc6+ and get the pawn back. If there are losses they are later on not because of Rxb2.
Fair enough; I spoke too quickly. It doesn't actually lose a pawn.+ Show Spoiler +
It still gives Black a positional advantage imo, though.

+ Show Spoiler +
That is what I am not so sure about.
After Rxb2 we can Qxc6+, Qd7 Qc3(1) he has to go away with the rook and we can castle.
+ Show Spoiler +
Rxb2 Qxc6+ Qd7 Qc3 Qb5


+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, the rook stays I would see it like Qc3 Qb5 a4
a) Qb6-8 0-0
b) Qb3 Qc6+ and it becomes interesting ?
MrStorkie
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom697 Posts
September 22 2011 21:20 GMT
#1488
o-o IMO
1a2a3a4z5z6d7d8d9p0p
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 22 2011 21:25 GMT
#1489
On September 23 2011 05:22 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 04:35 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 03:13 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 02:54 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 02:46 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 01:30 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 00:45 FishForThought wrote:
Why are you people so keen in getting that pawn advantage right away while putting the formation and your limited number of attacking pieces at risk?

We should get our king out of the check lock first so we can start using our knights.

our move list should be something like:
1. a3
2. Nxe4 (assuming he moves his bishop instead of trading).
3. QxC6+ (assuming he takes our knight with his d5 pawn)
4. QxE4

There you effectively gained 2 pawn advantage while controlling the center board. Hold off getting the pawn in the next move.
a3's been refuted several times; it gives Black a pawn.

If you mean Rxb2 then it does not directly give black a pawn as you can Qxc6+ and get the pawn back. If there are losses they are later on not because of Rxb2.
Fair enough; I spoke too quickly. It doesn't actually lose a pawn.+ Show Spoiler +
It still gives Black a positional advantage imo, though.

+ Show Spoiler +
That is what I am not so sure about.
After Rxb2 we can Qxc6+, Qd7 Qc3(1) he has to go away with the rook and we can castle.
+ Show Spoiler +
Rxb2 Qxc6+ Qd7 Qc3 Qb5


+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, the rook stays I would see it like Qc3 Qb5 a4
a) Qb6-8 0-0
b) Qb3 Qc6+ and it becomes interesting ?
OK, I have to admit I don't have much here. Looks fairly even.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
FishForThought
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada88 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 01:22:01
September 23 2011 01:08 GMT
#1490
On September 23 2011 06:25 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 05:22 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 04:35 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 03:13 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 02:54 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 02:46 mcc wrote:
On September 23 2011 01:30 qrs wrote:
On September 23 2011 00:45 FishForThought wrote:
Why are you people so keen in getting that pawn advantage right away while putting the formation and your limited number of attacking pieces at risk?

We should get our king out of the check lock first so we can start using our knights.

our move list should be something like:
1. a3
2. Nxe4 (assuming he moves his bishop instead of trading).
3. QxC6+ (assuming he takes our knight with his d5 pawn)
4. QxE4

There you effectively gained 2 pawn advantage while controlling the center board. Hold off getting the pawn in the next move.
a3's been refuted several times; it gives Black a pawn.

If you mean Rxb2 then it does not directly give black a pawn as you can Qxc6+ and get the pawn back. If there are losses they are later on not because of Rxb2.
Fair enough; I spoke too quickly. It doesn't actually lose a pawn.+ Show Spoiler +
It still gives Black a positional advantage imo, though.

+ Show Spoiler +
That is what I am not so sure about.
After Rxb2 we can Qxc6+, Qd7 Qc3(1) he has to go away with the rook and we can castle.
+ Show Spoiler +
Rxb2 Qxc6+ Qd7 Qc3 Qb5


+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, the rook stays I would see it like Qc3 Qb5 a4
a) Qb6-8 0-0
b) Qb3 Qc6+ and it becomes interesting ?
OK, I have to admit I don't have much here. Looks fairly even.



Rxb2, Qxc6, Qd7, Qc5 (to prevent Castling on the black side), Ba6 (to prevent us from castling), Bc3 (threaten rook), Rb5 (to threaten our queen), Qxa7 (threaten his back row and his bishop).. thats how i see it would turn out.

edit: actually he'll probably go:

Rxb2, Qxc6, Qd7, Qc5 (to prevent Castling on the black side), Ba6 (to prevent us from castling), Bc3 (threaten rook), Re6+, MCC's moves might be better.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 23 2011 04:02 GMT
#1491
Deadline is over guys.

Give me some time to update everything.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 23 2011 04:21 GMT
#1492
nitdkim wrote:
omg, thread quality is 10/10. those graphs in OP so good!


Thank you.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 04:26:04
September 23 2011 04:24 GMT
#1493
Everything is updated. I will give you guys one or two days of rest or else qrs will burn out and we don't want that, do we?

I planned to wait a little anyway.

Cheers.

Hmmm... Sometimes I really want to make some game-related comments, but I really shouldn't.

Well maybe when all is said and done.

But I'm really proud of all the work you've been doing. I'm sure you've found many-many good and tricky lines during your evals.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 23 2011 13:27 GMT
#1494
On September 23 2011 13:24 Ng5 wrote:
Everything is updated. I will give you guys one or two days of rest or else qrs will burn out and we don't want that, do we?
Ha, it's ok. I'll take it easy. Next move or two is pretty forced anyway.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
September 24 2011 05:13 GMT
#1495
awwwww whats this move D:

mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-24 06:27:27
September 24 2011 05:47 GMT
#1496
I really don't like our move Oh well haha not that I'm whining or anything. I'm gonna assume that he'll play Qd7, and start analyzing from there.

Edit: Some analysis

11... Qd7 and then:

+ Show Spoiler +
12. Qxd7 Bxd7 (I guess black can play Kxd7 which might be better since there isn't really a need to castle anymore), then if

13. a3 Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 I think we can hold our pawn and it isn't as bad for our Bishop as it looks (16. Kc3/c2). The only issue here is that we have to be very careful how we trade as opposite colored Bishop's tend to negate extra pawns .

13. 0-0 is interesting as it forces black's knight to react or give himself a pawn that's incredibly weak. It does have a line that returns the pawn but it doesn't look the best for black: 13...Nxd2 14. Nxd2 Bxd2 15. Bxd2 then

15...Rxb2 16. Rab1 Rxb1 (not Rxd2? 17. Rb8+) 17. Rxb1 looks good for white.

15...0-0 16. b3 Rb5 (to break center pawn) 17. Rac1 Rc8 18. b4 looks good for white.

15...Bb5 16. Rfc1 c6 (if he plays a passive move like Rc8, move f pawn and then king toward center) 17. Bb4 Bc4 18. Ba3 looks good for white (white will get tempo back since black needs to use a turn to move the king)

There is also Ke7 which looks decent for black, but he is a pawn down and I white will have an advantage, (a bit too tired to analysis it).

12. Qc2 (white's only other non losing move) Ba6 13. oh god this looks bad for white I'm gonna just go with Qxd7 for our next move.
Write your own song!
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 25 2011 22:51 GMT
#1497
Okay I better do this now, because later I'll start working and maybe go out for a while and completely and utterly forget about chess.

So the move is.

11... Qd7


The official 12th round started right here.

A little more than three days.

Cheers!
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
September 25 2011 23:46 GMT
#1498
12. Qxd7+

+ Show Spoiler +
All the lines relevant to this move have been discussed and I am convinced we want to avoid 12. Qc2 Ba6. We should spend the time for this move trying to figure out our 13th move after the likely 12...Bxd7, keeping in mind the fact that black might conceivably play 12...Kxd7.
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 25 2011 23:50 GMT
#1499
12. Qc2
+ Show Spoiler +
I have analyzed this move, and I see nothing wrong with it.
We keep all our pieces, go a pawn up, and are in a good position to still be able to castle on our king's side. What's not to love?
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
September 25 2011 23:56 GMT
#1500
On September 26 2011 08:50 Bill Murray wrote:
12. Qc2
+ Show Spoiler +
I have analyzed this move, and I see nothing wrong with it.
We keep all our pieces, go a pawn up, and are in a good position to still be able to castle on our king's side. What's not to love?


+ Show Spoiler +
After 12...Ba6 we will never castle kingside. Now maybe you think we will still be OK but don't say we can castle kingside.

And, if you think we will be OK without kingside castling, please point out how you plan to respond to black's threats of Qb5 and Qg4 as discussed by jd/qrs above.
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