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On June 06 2013 15:06 hearters wrote:
1. What's the point of getting infestors vs terran? Medivacs heal through the dps, so it doesn't seem effective if they have enough medivacs. Lings and fungal alone still can't kill stimmed marine/marauder so you still need banelings in the end.
Can someone who regularly gets infestors ZvT tell me why you get them and why they are good? For now I'm still using ling/bling/muta.
2. What's the ideal number of mutas to have in ZvT for defense/cleanup? Pros always seem to get 10-12 mutas, but I'd think that 20 is a better number(if focus fire, 20 one-shots a medivac), since you kill medivacs much faster and cleanup after banelings/lings better.
Fungal holds the units down so banes and lings can go in to finish them off. Fungal also damages the me medivacs. Fungal isn't as good as it was in WOL but it is till useful in HOTS.
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In Meta they spoke of a ZvT build with speed roach and speedbanes which they say always beats Terran unless they have siege tanks, and even with siege tanks it can be so strong that it'll even out afterwards.
Whats the exact build (order) theyre talking about?
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On June 06 2013 17:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 15:06 hearters wrote:
1. What's the point of getting infestors vs terran? Medivacs heal through the dps, so it doesn't seem effective if they have enough medivacs. Lings and fungal alone still can't kill stimmed marine/marauder so you still need banelings in the end.
Can someone who regularly gets infestors ZvT tell me why you get them and why they are good? For now I'm still using ling/bling/muta.
2. What's the ideal number of mutas to have in ZvT for defense/cleanup? Pros always seem to get 10-12 mutas, but I'd think that 20 is a better number(if focus fire, 20 one-shots a medivac), since you kill medivacs much faster and cleanup after banelings/lings better. Fungal holds the units down so banes and lings can go in to finish them off. Fungal also damages the me medivacs. Fungal isn't as good as it was in WOL but it is till useful in HOTS.
But if the terran splits marines, fungal doesn't really hit much. What I think is, banelings will eventually hit anyway with the help of lings. Fungal damages medivacs but it's so difficult to kill medivacs with it in battles. Are they really worth it?
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On June 06 2013 17:21 magha wrote:
In Meta they spoke of a ZvT build with speed roach and speedbanes which they say always beats Terran unless they have siege tanks, and even with siege tanks it can be so strong that it'll even out afterwards.
Whats the exact build (order) theyre talking about?
If you watch the soulkey vs innovation (red city/game 5 iirc) he does a speed roach/ling/bane all in (speed for roaches + banelings) and with 1/1. It is very, very powerful versus terrans.
I don't know the exact timings but it literally looks text book zvt except he adds a roach warren and then starts pumping out mass roach/ling after getting 3 saturated bases. Then he turns all of his zerglings into baneligns (well most) and does the bust.
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On June 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:21 magha wrote:
In Meta they spoke of a ZvT build with speed roach and speedbanes which they say always beats Terran unless they have siege tanks, and even with siege tanks it can be so strong that it'll even out afterwards.
Whats the exact build (order) theyre talking about? If you watch the soulkey vs innovation (red city/game 5 iirc) he does a speed roach/ling/bane all in (speed for roaches + banelings) and with 1/1. It is very, very powerful versus terrans. I don't know the exact timings but it literally looks text book zvt except he adds a roach warren and then starts pumping out mass roach/ling after getting 3 saturated bases. Then he turns all of his zerglings into baneligns (well most) and does the bust.
I'm unable to watch the game. But he really got 3 fully saturated bases before pumping units? How many gas would you need for that? 4?
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On June 06 2013 17:45 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:On June 06 2013 17:21 magha wrote:
In Meta they spoke of a ZvT build with speed roach and speedbanes which they say always beats Terran unless they have siege tanks, and even with siege tanks it can be so strong that it'll even out afterwards.
Whats the exact build (order) theyre talking about? If you watch the soulkey vs innovation (red city/game 5 iirc) he does a speed roach/ling/bane all in (speed for roaches + banelings) and with 1/1. It is very, very powerful versus terrans. I don't know the exact timings but it literally looks text book zvt except he adds a roach warren and then starts pumping out mass roach/ling after getting 3 saturated bases. Then he turns all of his zerglings into baneligns (well most) and does the bust. I'm unable to watch the game. But he really got 3 fully saturated bases before pumping units? How many gas would you need for that? 4?
3rd @ 6min, double evolution + 3rd gas @ 6:30, 4th gas @ ~7:15, roach warren + bane nest @ 8min.
He had 65 drones + 5th gas taken before pushing. So yeah, almost 3 fully saturated bases.
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In PvZ, at what time does toss usually take his third if he's going for an expand build (after a 1 gate or ffe)? When should I be checking if it's an expand build or an all in?
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On June 06 2013 15:06 hearters wrote:
1. What's the point of getting infestors vs terran? Medivacs heal through the dps, so it doesn't seem effective if they have enough medivacs. Lings and fungal alone still can't kill stimmed marine/marauder so you still need banelings in the end.
Can someone who regularly gets infestors ZvT tell me why you get them and why they are good? For now I'm still using ling/bling/muta.
2. What's the ideal number of mutas to have in ZvT for defense/cleanup? Pros always seem to get 10-12 mutas, but I'd think that 20 is a better number(if focus fire, 20 one-shots a medivac), since you kill medivacs much faster and cleanup after banelings/lings better.
1.
-holding army in place
ultras and banelings (or melee units in general, so pretty much all of zergs units) are countered by kiting so the better the terran is the harder it gets to take battles without key fungals
-killing marines
fungal might be worse against armored but it still kills marines really nicely.
2. against standard widow mine bio aggressive play something like 14, max 16 is a good number i think. any more delays hive tech too much and lets you have too few blings. any less and you have literally 0 harassment potential and he won't even have to consider making turrets. also drops are a little hard to clean up with less than that amount.
and you should always upgrade air attack (at least +1) and replace lost mutas.
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On June 06 2013 17:21 hearters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:06 Valon wrote:On June 06 2013 15:06 hearters wrote:
1. What's the point of getting infestors vs terran? Medivacs heal through the dps, so it doesn't seem effective if they have enough medivacs. Lings and fungal alone still can't kill stimmed marine/marauder so you still need banelings in the end.
Can someone who regularly gets infestors ZvT tell me why you get them and why they are good? For now I'm still using ling/bling/muta.
2. What's the ideal number of mutas to have in ZvT for defense/cleanup? Pros always seem to get 10-12 mutas, but I'd think that 20 is a better number(if focus fire, 20 one-shots a medivac), since you kill medivacs much faster and cleanup after banelings/lings better. Fungal holds the units down so banes and lings can go in to finish them off. Fungal also damages the me medivacs. Fungal isn't as good as it was in WOL but it is till useful in HOTS. But if the terran splits marines, fungal doesn't really hit much. What I think is, banelings will eventually hit anyway with the help of lings. Fungal damages medivacs but it's so difficult to kill medivacs with it in battles. Are they really worth it?
It's prettymuch the same as with most engagements using Ling/bling/muta - a lot of it comes down to how the terran splits.
I tend to add infestors just before I put down an ultralisk cavern. I don't tend to find a lot of use for them in the midgame lair-tech battles, but they do help out quite a bit when you've got ultras and banelings as key damage dealers.
In addition, fungal reveals widow mines, which helps like mad. It's not why you should get infestors, but it's a nice perk.
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On June 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:21 magha wrote:
In Meta they spoke of a ZvT build with speed roach and speedbanes which they say always beats Terran unless they have siege tanks, and even with siege tanks it can be so strong that it'll even out afterwards.
Whats the exact build (order) theyre talking about? If you watch the soulkey vs innovation (red city/game 5 iirc) he does a speed roach/ling/bane all in (speed for roaches + banelings) and with 1/1. It is very, very powerful versus terrans. I don't know the exact timings but it literally looks text book zvt except he adds a roach warren and then starts pumping out mass roach/ling after getting 3 saturated bases. Then he turns all of his zerglings into baneligns (well most) and does the bust.
I'm still wondering. Is this better than the ragnaork's version (with drops instead of baneling speed) ? Because with drops you kinda don't care about the tanks and you can attack with a better angle (you have 5 bunkers ? I drop the main).
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If a protoss is doing a normal FFE and I 15 hatch, can he cannon rush my natural? Or does he need to do an early forge to pull off a cannon rush against 15 hatch?
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On June 06 2013 17:45 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 17:33 blade55555 wrote:On June 06 2013 17:21 magha wrote:
In Meta they spoke of a ZvT build with speed roach and speedbanes which they say always beats Terran unless they have siege tanks, and even with siege tanks it can be so strong that it'll even out afterwards.
Whats the exact build (order) theyre talking about? If you watch the soulkey vs innovation (red city/game 5 iirc) he does a speed roach/ling/bane all in (speed for roaches + banelings) and with 1/1. It is very, very powerful versus terrans. I don't know the exact timings but it literally looks text book zvt except he adds a roach warren and then starts pumping out mass roach/ling after getting 3 saturated bases. Then he turns all of his zerglings into baneligns (well most) and does the bust. I'm unable to watch the game. But he really got 3 fully saturated bases before pumping units? How many gas would you need for that? 4?
You are lucky I took heavy notes on that game.
15H
16P
2xQueens
2xQueens
@5:10 2xG
@6:00 3rd H
@100g Speed
@6:25 2xEvos 1xG(3rd)
@7:10 1xG(4th)
@100%Evos +1/+1(melee)
@7:35 Lair
@8min RW,BN
@100%Lair SpeedR,SpeedB
@9:05 G(5th)
Stop Drone Production @saturation
9:40 4th H(M)
Overlords,Roaches,Banes
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On June 06 2013 15:06 hearters wrote:
1. What's the point of getting infestors vs terran? Medivacs heal through the dps, so it doesn't seem effective if they have enough medivacs. Lings and fungal alone still can't kill stimmed marine/marauder so you still need banelings in the end.
Can someone who regularly gets infestors ZvT tell me why you get them and why they are good? For now I'm still using ling/bling/muta.
2. What's the ideal number of mutas to have in ZvT for defense/cleanup? Pros always seem to get 10-12 mutas, but I'd think that 20 is a better number(if focus fire, 20 one-shots a medivac), since you kill medivacs much faster and cleanup after banelings/lings better.
Infestor's come out before the terran has a critical amount of medivacs. At the point that he is reaching a critical amount you should be adding corruptors to kill them off.
You still do need banelings but not a massive amount of them. You don't need more than 4 to 6 infestors either. Infestors synergize best with ultra/baneling so your goal should be to get those out asap after building your infestors.
Prior to this the infestors will work to slow down his push. Putting 3 or 4 spines down and having your infestors behind them basically stops a mines push. Make sure your creep spread and scouting is good enough so you can move your spines to where he's attacking.
If he's massing mines or marauders or both you morph your corruptors into broods for the kill. If he doesn't do either then you'll just win with ultras. If you want to get fancy you can blinding cloud over the fungal. I usually just end up going broods though.
http://drop.sc/340627
http://drop.sc/340626
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Hello what's the proper response if I get 10 pooled (I 15 hatch) and lose my expansion (no cancel). Let's say opponent pulls back his lings. I guess macro game is out of the question at that point ?
Also just in general I'm not sure how to handle early pools, I either die or fall behind
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On June 06 2013 23:42 Durmaz21 wrote:
Hello what's the proper response if I get 10 pooled (I 15 hatch) and lose my expansion (no cancel). Let's say opponent pulls back his lings. I guess macro game is out of the question at that point ?
Also just in general I'm not sure how to handle early pools, I either die or fall behind
Spending your first 50 gas on bane nest isn't a bad idea. I know I'd feel a little pressured if I actually had some banes in front of my lings.
But more importantly, in general you can already see if he's coming with his lings with your overlords and then you can cancel your expand and make a spine in your main.
Then get either speed or bane nest and try to kill some lings because you'll have a superior eco (more drones, eventually a faster queen but that depends if he's really aggressive or not, and a spine that can hold some runbies).
Just don't panic when cancelling the expand. 
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How do you deal with 1 gate expand into 4 gate zealots MsC ?
I'd like to take a third against this build but even with a 5:30 RW, it's so hard..
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On June 05 2013 12:30 Jinxeth wrote:
For a High Masters Zerg having a ton of issues dealing with the standard Bio/Mine/Medivac 2/2 timing at around 13:30, even when I am well aware that it is coming, what are the tips of engaging this army, and which composition plays out the best against this?
- I've attempted everything from Roach/Hydra to Ling/Infestor to Ling/Bling/Muta and while some of my plays have been decent holds, none have allowed me to capitalise enough to stop the fourth base going down, let alone have some free units to do a runby while he's moving out. Is it just my control against the mines, or are there a few tricks to engage this army that I am not seeing?
Focus on lings. If you watch stephano play he takes his gasses sparingly and focuses on lings. Then when he engages he move commands past the army to surround it, This will have the mines deal splash damage to their own army.
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On June 07 2013 02:07 Insoleet wrote:
How do you deal with 1 gate expand into 4 gate zealots MsC ?
I'd like to take a third against this build but even with a 5:30 RW, it's so hard..
Scouting with lings is VERY important when facing gate expand. You can shut down a 4 gate zealot MSC by just denying probes/pylons. You should make lings, control the watch towers and the rest should be scouting for proxy pylons or hidden probes. This is the best way to shut it down.
If not roach/ling can hold it you just need to make sure you see it coming at a good time and not be caught by surprise.
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What is a general response for late game ZvT? It feels like everything Zerg has right now is oriented towards winning in the midgame because once you get to late game you have 0 mobility with ultras or broods and just die to drop play, especially since the 4th/5th bases are usually exposed so that they can drop away from spores.
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On June 07 2013 14:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:
What is a general response for late game ZvT? It feels like everything Zerg has right now is oriented towards winning in the midgame because once you get to late game you have 0 mobility with ultras or broods and just die to drop play, especially since the 4th/5th bases are usually exposed so that they can drop away from spores.
Late game composition: Ling/bane/ultra/infestor
Drop play: static defense, in the really late game 1 spore 3 spine and position your army so that you can defend your bases, and put a thought into where you expand.
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EPT
