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On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease.
You need to rewatch game two. When the Tech Labs on Lucifrons 2nd and 3rd Barracks finish, he starts building two mMarauders and researching Stim. (Is that even a good idea with a 170s research time?) Meanwhile his 1st Reactored Narracks is building nothing. He also starts a Factory.
When the Factory and the Marauders are done, he starts a Reactor at the Factory and a Starport. Meanwhile Naniwa is attacking his front and he is still building two SCVs at a time, while his 1st Barracks is still building nothing. Same goes for the other two Barracks as he starts Combat Shields, +1 Armor and two SCVs before building another pair of Marauders. Between 6:38 and 9:30 his first Barracks is building NOTHING. All that while he scouted an Immortal all-in and a one base Protoss.
He had a second OC, he knew he was economically ahead, he had his base oversaturated, and yet he continued to build workers while not continuously building units and trying to upgrade and tech at the same time.
He either catastrophically misread what was happening or he was just flat out playing badly. You can add to that, that he let his reaper get chased down by an Immortal and so lost his only unit out on the map, he then had to scan for the second Nexus and franctically restart production while Naniwa was walking up his ramp. Adding to that he did not immediatly pull his SCVs and neglected to target fire the Immortals, while Naniwa was target firing the Bunkers and his Force Fields where spot on.
Or in other words, Lucifron made several mistakes while Naniwa made none and:
On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:
Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease.
So did Lucifron actually prepare and engage accordingly?
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I did not ink say to check if they have mined a lot of gas. I said if they have mined a lot of gas and you don't see where they could have spent it. Keep trying.
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On July 16 2013 02:56 ZackAttack wrote:
I did not ink say to check if they have mined a lot of gas. I said if they have mined a lot of gas and you don't see where they could have spent it. Keep trying.
Do you not realize that ALL Protoss builds have Zealots? Jesus, l2p.
(I find responding to only the parts of posts people want funny.)
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TvP is much harder now, but I'm finally winning 90% of my tvts again and it feels great
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On July 16 2013 04:20 c0sm0naut wrote:
TvP is much harder now, but I'm finally winning 90% of my tvts again and it feels great
you could just go hellion timings and banshee timings instead of hellbat. they do just as well.
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On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you.
I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans.
I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base.
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On July 16 2013 02:47 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. You need to rewatch game two. When the Tech Labs on Lucifrons 2nd and 3rd Barracks finish, he starts building two mMarauders and researching Stim. (Is that even a good idea with a 170s research time?) Meanwhile his 1st Reactored Narracks is building nothing. He also starts a Factory. When the Factory and the Marauders are done, he starts a Reactor at the Factory and a Starport. Meanwhile Naniwa is attacking his front and he is still building two SCVs at a time, while his 1st Barracks is still building nothing. Same goes for the other two Barracks as he starts Combat Shields, +1 Armor and two SCVs before building another pair of Marauders. Between 6:38 and 9:30 his first Barracks is building NOTHING. All that while he scouted an Immortal all-in and a one base Protoss. He had a second OC, he knew he was economically ahead, he had his base oversaturated, and yet he continued to build workers while not continuously building units and trying to upgrade and tech at the same time. He either catastrophically misread what was happening or he was just flat out playing badly. You can add to that, that he let his reaper get chased down by an Immortal and so lost his only unit out on the map, he then had to scan for the second Nexus and franctically restart production while Naniwa was walking up his ramp. Adding to that he did not immediatly pull his SCVs and neglected to target fire the Immortals, while Naniwa was target firing the Bunkers and his Force Fields where spot on. Or in other words, Lucifron made several mistakes while Naniwa made none and: Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:
Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. So did Lucifron actually prepare and engage accordingly?
I never said LucifroN didn't make any mistakes; if I remember correctly I even stated in the LR thread I didn't understand why he didn't have some SCVs pre-pulled. I chose this series because it perfectly exemplifies the incredibly low skill floor required to be competitive in PvT: 400+ ping Protoss is matched against Terran, lines up three cheap all-ins knowing he can't play a macro game at all with the delay, and still prevails anyway because it's so easy to instantly collect a freewin against a small misstep given how brutally unforgiving those scenarii are for the Terran side.
You're right, LucifroN shouldn't have cut Marines at all, but for things like stim/fact you're wrong: the trick is that Protoss not only threatens to kill you with his "all-in," he also threatens to drop a Nexus at any moment he's inflicted damage, contains you until your Medivacs (which are heavily delayed if you slow down your tech to invest extra resources in your defence) and catch up and even exceed you in eco/tech, which means he'll pretty much auto-roll you since Terran has little way to come from behind in TvP without several blunders from the Protoss side.
You can't chrono Medivacs once you realize what's up, or build 10 SCVs at once when your opponent decides to power his economy behind his attack: Terran's play doesn't have the flexible tools to brutally switch from one side to another in the economy/army/technology balance, you have to progress steadily regardless of the direction(s) you chose with your initial build order and thus are frequently left behind when one scenario forces you to cut eco/tech to survive, then the situation suddenly changes the next minut because Protoss cuts warp-ins, expands and spends 100% of his resources to probes/tech.
I have lost countless games against a Blink Stalkers not-even-all-in dropping a 7' nex because of this: you're forced to lift into your main because Time Warp makes it completely impossible to move from one base to another without game-ending casualities for your crawling Marines, but then Protoss stops producing units, expands, contains you while chronoing AoE tech and laugh at your Medivac push with his superior army. On WoL, you could defend your natural (the extra mineral line matters a lot: on your main your income is capped, even with 2 MULEs, and you have access to only 2 gas) and you would simply punish the failed all-in with a classic Medivac push. Thus the risk/reward ratio of the all-in was adequate: the attack was strong, but if it failed too badly, Terran would auto-win afterwards, as it's supposed to happen when an all-in isn't successful enough… Now Protoss simply gets a free attempt at winning on some maps (hello Star Station), and since Terran is bound to suffer huge damage, if only indirectly by lifting into main until (heavily delayed) Medivacs, can then salvage his opening into a macro game with an even or, worse, superior position.
A particularly obnoxious example of the stupidly skewed risk/reward of all those coinflips can be found in Polt vs Squirtle, Bel'shir Vestige, Gigabyte Pro Cup: 10 gate (first coinflip) into proxy Immortal (second one) into expanding 7 minuts later than Terran (salvaging the two previous coinflips because Polt is prepared) into winning with the final DT coinflip. After the 10 gate is held, the Reaper scouts Squirtle's base and finds 3 gates. What is he doing? What tech is proxied? Stargate? Council? Robotics? Have fun guessing. Bad luck, judging by his Sensor Tower it seems Polt decided it was Blink Stalkers: good job, 150/125 (= a bit more than the cost of a factory) wasted. Well, he's safe, isn't he? "Better be safe than sorry," blabla. Yep. He's safe, so Squirtle salvages 11 minuts of "all-in" with a Nexus and techs a Dark shrine. Medivacs are out at 12'45, i. e. 3 minuts later than the usual timing, which means Squirtle had all the time to catch up in eco/tech. At 14'05 Polt scans Squirtle's army and instantly loses the game, because meanwhile one DT appears in each of his mineral lines and he has no energy on his other OC. Needless to say, the "weak" gate units with the support of 3 Immortals and the Nexus Cannon were already making short work of his Medivac push anyway. So to sum up, Polt was punished for playing right: stays conservative against an all-in, then is left behind when Protoss decides to press the macro button.
I can't know for sure what LucifroN was thinking when playing like this, but perhaps he was trying to anticipate this kind of scenario and prevent it from happening. Perhaps he thought the sight of 5 Bunkers would scare Naniwa and prompt him to build a Nexus; obviously he should have known better, but perhaps the 5 bunks into loss vs Immortal bust isn't a classic of his ladder sessions like it is for most Terrans. (;
About oversaturation… 33 SCVs (not "nearly 50" as Plansix said, who would know making 50 SCVs while being contained on one base never happens because you just don't have enough resources for that, but whatever) isn't excessive at all considering (a) the inevitable casualities, (b) the threat of a Nexus and (c) the fact a certain amount of those SCVs have to be ready near the Bunkers pretty much all the time, so you need SCVs in excess to saturate your mineral line. Also, a certain amount of economic advantage is always guarateed in standard TvPs: Protoss has little troubles competing despite systematically having 20-25% less income in some phases because their armies are much more efficient, so when you state that "he was economically ahead anyway" … So was probably Polt against Squirtle during a large part of the game, and see how little it mattered in the end. Terran having the economic advantage doesn't necessarily mean he's ahead; +300 income in particular is insignificant if you're contained on one base with tech delayed while Protoss is expanding, and as soon as the Nexus is ready Terran actually gets behind if Protoss has more than ~30 probes at mineral.
What makes the defence of those all-ins so painful is not only the difficulty to scout, the very thin margin of error, but also the fact that overcommitment on defence can make you lose as surely as not committing enough. Compare this complex process with casting Forcefields and shift focusing paper buildings with 50 damage Immortals and you'll easily understand where the unfairness lies.
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On July 16 2013 05:38 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans. I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base.
I don't agree and think terran has some of the most robust scouting in the game, including scans. Its not perfect, but what is? As a protoss, I have played blind when a terran has denied me the scouting information I need by sniping and obs. Or it arrives a second to late and you see half an army with no medivacs and you know that 2 of them are out there, comming for it.
Once again, the grass is always greener. I am sure zergs could tell me how bad it is for them too and how hard it is to scout protoss all-in. I could tell stories about how many roach rushes I have lost to because both my scouting probes got picked off.
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On July 16 2013 05:43 TheDwf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 16 2013 02:47 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. You need to rewatch game two. When the Tech Labs on Lucifrons 2nd and 3rd Barracks finish, he starts building two mMarauders and researching Stim. (Is that even a good idea with a 170s research time?) Meanwhile his 1st Reactored Narracks is building nothing. He also starts a Factory. When the Factory and the Marauders are done, he starts a Reactor at the Factory and a Starport. Meanwhile Naniwa is attacking his front and he is still building two SCVs at a time, while his 1st Barracks is still building nothing. Same goes for the other two Barracks as he starts Combat Shields, +1 Armor and two SCVs before building another pair of Marauders. Between 6:38 and 9:30 his first Barracks is building NOTHING. All that while he scouted an Immortal all-in and a one base Protoss. He had a second OC, he knew he was economically ahead, he had his base oversaturated, and yet he continued to build workers while not continuously building units and trying to upgrade and tech at the same time. He either catastrophically misread what was happening or he was just flat out playing badly. You can add to that, that he let his reaper get chased down by an Immortal and so lost his only unit out on the map, he then had to scan for the second Nexus and franctically restart production while Naniwa was walking up his ramp. Adding to that he did not immediatly pull his SCVs and neglected to target fire the Immortals, while Naniwa was target firing the Bunkers and his Force Fields where spot on. Or in other words, Lucifron made several mistakes while Naniwa made none and: Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:
Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. So did Lucifron actually prepare and engage accordingly? I never said LucifroN didn't make any mistakes; if I remember correctly I even stated in the LR thread I didn't understand why he didn't have some SCVs pre-pulled. I chose this series because it perfectly exemplifies the incredibly low skill floor required to be competitive in PvT: 400+ ping Protoss is matched against Terran, lines up three cheap all-ins knowing he can't play a macro game at all with the delay, and still prevails anyway because it's so easy to instantly collect a freewin against a small misstep given how brutally unforgiving those scenarii are for the Terran side. You're right, LucifroN shouldn't have cut Marines at all, but for things like stim/fact you're wrong: the trick is that Protoss not only threatens to kill you with his "all-in," he also threatens to drop a Nexus at any moment he's inflicted damage, contains you until your Medivacs (which are heavily delayed if you slow down your tech to invest extra resources in your defence) and catch up and even exceed you in eco/tech, which means he'll pretty much auto-roll you since Terran has little way to come from behind in TvP without several blunders from the Protoss side. You can't chrono Medivacs once you realize what's up, or build 10 SCVs at once when your opponent decides to power his economy behind his attack: Terran's play doesn't have the flexible tools to brutally switch from one side to another in the economy/army/technology balance, you have to progress steadily regardless of the direction(s) you chose with your initial build order and thus are frequently left behind when one scenario forces you to cut eco/tech to survive, then the situation suddenly changes the next minut because Protoss cuts warp-ins, expands and spends 100% of his resources to probes/tech. I have lost countless games against a Blink Stalkers not-even-all-in dropping a 7' nex because of this: you're forced to lift into your main because Time Warp makes it completely impossible to move from one base to another without game-ending casualities for your crawling Marines, but then Protoss stops producing units, expands, contains you while chronoing AoE tech and laugh at your Medivac push with his superior army. On WoL, you could defend your natural (the extra mineral line matters a lot: on your main your income is capped, even with 2 MULEs, and you have access to only 2 gas) and you would simply punish the failed all-in with a classic Medivac push. Thus the risk/reward ratio of the all-in was adequate: the attack was strong, but if it failed too badly, Terran would auto-win afterwards, as it's supposed to happen when an all-in isn't successful enough… Now Protoss simply gets a free attempt at winning on some maps (hello Star Station), and since Terran is bound to suffer huge damage, if only indirectly by lifting into main until (heavily delayed) Medivacs, can then salvage his opening into a macro game with an even or, worse, superior position. A particularly obnoxious example of the stupidly skewed risk/reward of all those coinflips can be found in Polt vs Squirtle, Bel'shir Vestige, Gigabyte Pro Cup: 10 gate (first coinflip) into proxy Immortal (second one) into expanding 7 minuts later than Terran (salvaging the two previous coinflips because Polt is prepared) into winning with the final DT coinflip. After the 10 gate is held, the Reaper scouts Squirtle's base and finds 3 gates. What is he doing? What tech is proxied? Stargate? Council? Robotics? Have fun guessing. Bad luck, judging by his Sensor Tower it seems Polt decided it was Blink Stalkers: good job, 150/125 (= a bit more than the cost of a factory) wasted. Well, he's safe, isn't he? "Better be safe than sorry," blabla. Yep. He's safe, so Squirtle salvages 11 minuts of "all-in" with a Nexus and techs a Dark shrine. Medivacs are out at 12'45, i. e. 3 minuts later than the usual timing, which means Squirtle had all the time to catch up in eco/tech. At 14'05 Polt scans Squirtle's army and instantly loses the game, because meanwhile one DT appears in each of his mineral lines and he has no energy on his other OC. Needless to say, the "weak" gate units with the support of 3 Immortals and the Nexus Cannon were already making short work of his Medivac push anyway. So to sum up, Polt was punished for playing right: stays conservative against an all-in, then is left behind when Protoss decides to press the macro button. I can't know for sure what LucifroN was thinking when playing like this, but perhaps he was trying to anticipate this kind of scenario and prevent it from happening. Perhaps he thought the sight of 5 Bunkers would scare Naniwa and prompt him to build a Nexus; obviously he should have known better, but perhaps the 5 bunks into loss vs Immortal bust isn't a classic of his ladder sessions like it is for most Terrans. (; About oversaturation… 33 SCVs (not "nearly 50" as Plansix said, who would know making 50 SCVs while being contained on one base never happens because you just don't have enough resources for that, but whatever) isn't excessive at all considering (a) the inevitable casualities, (b) the threat of a Nexus and (c) the fact a certain amount of those SCVs have to be ready near the Bunkers pretty much all the time, so you need SCVs in excess to saturate your mineral line. Also, a certain amount of economic advantage is always guarateed in standard TvPs: Protoss has little troubles competing despite systematically having 20-25% less income in some phases because their armies are much more efficient, so when you state that "he was economically ahead anyway" … So was probably Polt against Squirtle during a large part of the game, and see how little it mattered in the end. Terran having the economic advantage doesn't necessarily mean he's ahead; +300 income in particular is insignificant if you're contained on one base with tech delayed while Protoss is expanding, and as soon as the Nexus is ready Terran actually gets behind if Protoss has more than ~30 probes at mineral. What makes the defence of those all-ins so painful is not only the difficulty to scout, the very thin margin of error, but also the fact that overcommitment on defence can make you lose as surely as not committing enough. Compare this complex process with casting Forcefields and shift focusing paper buildings with 50 damage Immortals and you'll easily understand where the unfairness lies.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, my reply was solely to the onesidedness with which most terrans look at that game/that series.
As for anything else, i agree that Protoss early/mid opportunities might be overpowered, but as of now i just don't see the it as a huge issue. Yes with Naniwa and the other P that all inned his way through the group stages (was it duckdeok?) and Genius in GSTL a pattern is starting to emerge. But with the picture you're painting it looks like Terrans aren't winning anything against Protoss and that i just don't see (yet).
If you look at the recent results in Korea, TvZ appears to be a much bigger problem than TvP. Again that may change but for now there just doesn't seem to be a need to do anything.
The much bigger problem however is what can actually be done about it. Do you think that a cheaper turret/no Ebay requirement (believe Naruto and/or Morrow were asking for that) would give Terran the security against allins? Because most Terrans i see are just asking for removal of the Planetary Nexus and with the current balance in Korea that might just remove Protoss from top level competition entirely.
I would also advise you to try to look at things from the P/Z side sometimes. You speak of you're ladder experiences/frustrations, try to think of those of the other races. I'm sure a lot of Zergs can tell you about their problems with Mines and a lot of Protoss will tell you how the wiffed their first Storm / Thermal Lance was just not ready and just lost outright to the first Stim/Medivac push. All these are subjective opinions, all these may or may not be correct to whatever extent, but the Pro results are so far not showing it (I think).
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On July 16 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 05:38 SirPinky wrote:On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans. I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base. I don't agree and think terran has some of the most robust scouting in the game, including scans. Its not perfect, but what is? As a protoss, I have played blind when a terran has denied me the scouting information I need by sniping and obs. Or it arrives a second to late and you see half an army with no medivacs and you know that 2 of them are out there, comming for it. Once again, the grass is always greener. I am sure zergs could tell me how bad it is for them too and how hard it is to scout protoss all-in. I could tell stories about how many roach rushes I have lost to because both my scouting probes got picked off.
In the early game it is often better to mule instead of scan and build 2 turrets blindly. In the end It is still cheaper then a scan and you have the turrets. A scan costs 270 minerals. If you see that you need turrets you have to invest even more. 270 minarals less can cost you the game especially against certain all ins.
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On July 16 2013 06:54 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 05:38 SirPinky wrote:On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans. I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base. I don't agree and think terran has some of the most robust scouting in the game, including scans. Its not perfect, but what is? As a protoss, I have played blind when a terran has denied me the scouting information I need by sniping and obs. Or it arrives a second to late and you see half an army with no medivacs and you know that 2 of them are out there, comming for it. Once again, the grass is always greener. I am sure zergs could tell me how bad it is for them too and how hard it is to scout protoss all-in. I could tell stories about how many roach rushes I have lost to because both my scouting probes got picked off. In the early game it is often better to mule instead of scan and build 2 turrets blindly. In the end It is still cheaper then a scan and you have the turrets. A scan costs 270 minerals. If you see that you need turrets you have to invest even more. 270 minarals less can cost you the game especially against certain all ins.
yes in the end we might have the same TvP than we had in WoL, only with Terrans needing to invest a bit more into early game (static) defence (because of possible DT and oracle play) and protoss needing to invest less because of MSC. seems fair, no?
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And we might not. And even if we do, it may turn out to be fair. If there is one thing we can be sure of, the game rarely turns out how we expect it to. If there really is a large imbalance in favour of P in PvT, the results will show it over the rest of 2013.
At the moment, however, random ladder experiences aside, there is nothing to justify this spate of QQ.
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A particularly obnoxious example of the stupidly skewed risk/reward of all those coinflips can be found in Polt vs Squirtle, Bel'shir Vestige, Gigabyte Pro Cup: 10 gate (first coinflip) into proxy Immortal (second one) into expanding 7 minuts later than Terran (salvaging the two previous coinflips because Polt is prepared) into winning with the final DT coinflip. After the 10 gate is held, the Reaper scouts Squirtle's base and finds 3 gates. What is he doing? What tech is proxied? Stargate? Council? Robotics? Have fun guessing. Bad luck, judging by his Sensor Tower it seems Polt decided it was Blink Stalkers: good job, 150/125 (= a bit more than the cost of a factory) wasted. Well, he's safe, isn't he? "Better be safe than sorry," blabla. Yep. He's safe, so Squirtle salvages 11 minuts of "all-in" with a Nexus and techs a Dark shrine. Medivacs are out at 12'45, i. e. 3 minuts later than the usual timing, which means Squirtle had all the time to catch up in eco/tech. At 14'05 Polt scans Squirtle's army and instantly loses the game, because meanwhile one DT appears in each of his mineral lines and he has no energy on his other OC. Needless to say, the "weak" gate units with the support of 3 Immortals and the Nexus Cannon were already making short work of his Medivac push anyway. So to sum up, Polt was punished for playing right: stays conservative against an all-in, then is left behind when Protoss decides to press the macro button.
There is quite a bit of inconsistency here I am afraid. I went through the trouble and watched the game, Polt made quite a few crucial mistakes.
First of all he very early and smartly scouted with an scv and saw the 10gate coming, furthermore blocked the natural with an ebay - he did not cancel mind you. The trouble terran could face by going 1 rax reaper expand is that the bunker could be up late - and it was late but not because Squirtle was so fast at his base but because Polt - god knows why - put it on the lowground next to his ramp. this aggression is virtually over if the bunker is "up" and a couple of marines are inside.
Fine, did not happen, Squirtle did a bit of damage, killed a couple of Marines and SCVs for a zealot and 2 stalkers - I would not consider this going very well for the Toss.
After that you pointed out Polt had to guess so much - there are like 3 possible 1 base allins or busts possible - via air with oracles/VRs, by going Immos or a Blink allin(which is terrible btw on belshir since you have like 2 entry points, one is going up the ramp...) So Squirtle went Immo with a proxy robo. Polt knew an allin had to come, since the ebay was still there, and had to gather info what it was. The Reaper did fine by going to the main and scouting a bit around seeing the 3 gates now KNOWING something is coming - BUT not sending an SCV or Marine out for more info,even worse, going for a useless and expensive sensor tower(which according to Liquipedia is 125/100 and not 150/125 but nvm.) is baffling to be honest - Lucifron in this regard did a better job by scouting rather infamous proxy positions in the game against Naniwa.
Then the actual attack with 3 immos,like 4 sentries and some other gateway units occured - Polt had hardly any trouble deflecting it by having enough units and scaring Squirtle away with a lot of bunkers - and be ahead eco wise since he has 2 orbitals and mules are pretty good in these kind of situations. However Squirtle killing the supply depot on the ramp and a couple of bunkers expanded behind while containing Polt who had to wait for medivacs.
Looking at the VOD it was not a "coinflip" going for the DTs after all this but rather a calculated risk as Squirtle killed everything blocking the entry to Polts base and in addition saw a sensor tower but no turrets up. When - finally - Polt moved out he of course wanted this to be his turn to throw the punches and went for the natural in full force while being vulnerable at home. While attacking the natural everything fell completely apart for him and he did not concentrate on either front but it spiraled into a quick gg.
Mind you - before Polt attacked they were both on around equal eco but not tech - Squirtle had gateway Immortal army and DTs but no splash and no upgrades --> MMM under normal circumstances rapes this and I guess that's also the reason why Polt went in full force while in midfight got his attention diverted towards DTs slashing at his eco.
Scrappy game with a bit of luck for Squirtle, but Polt far from playing optimally.
//edit: this is the game in question for people interested in the discussion.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 16 2013 06:54 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 05:38 SirPinky wrote:On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans. I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base. I don't agree and think terran has some of the most robust scouting in the game, including scans. Its not perfect, but what is? As a protoss, I have played blind when a terran has denied me the scouting information I need by sniping and obs. Or it arrives a second to late and you see half an army with no medivacs and you know that 2 of them are out there, comming for it. Once again, the grass is always greener. I am sure zergs could tell me how bad it is for them too and how hard it is to scout protoss all-in. I could tell stories about how many roach rushes I have lost to because both my scouting probes got picked off. In the early game it is often better to mule instead of scan and build 2 turrets blindly. In the end It is still cheaper then a scan and you have the turrets. A scan costs 270 minerals. If you see that you need turrets you have to invest even more. 270 minarals less can cost you the game especially against certain all ins.
Good point, especially considering that
1. not scanning, having two turrets makes u safe vs dts and oracles, keeps obs away as well
2. the cost of being surprised by dark templar is already 270 minerals by default (scan), if he kills 1 scv, that's already 320 minerals worth of damage which justifies the cost of not only two but THREE missile turrets blindly imo..
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On July 16 2013 07:34 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +A particularly obnoxious example of the stupidly skewed risk/reward of all those coinflips can be found in Polt vs Squirtle, Bel'shir Vestige, Gigabyte Pro Cup: 10 gate (first coinflip) into proxy Immortal (second one) into expanding 7 minuts later than Terran (salvaging the two previous coinflips because Polt is prepared) into winning with the final DT coinflip. After the 10 gate is held, the Reaper scouts Squirtle's base and finds 3 gates. What is he doing? What tech is proxied? Stargate? Council? Robotics? Have fun guessing. Bad luck, judging by his Sensor Tower it seems Polt decided it was Blink Stalkers: good job, 150/125 (= a bit more than the cost of a factory) wasted. Well, he's safe, isn't he? "Better be safe than sorry," blabla. Yep. He's safe, so Squirtle salvages 11 minuts of "all-in" with a Nexus and techs a Dark shrine. Medivacs are out at 12'45, i. e. 3 minuts later than the usual timing, which means Squirtle had all the time to catch up in eco/tech. At 14'05 Polt scans Squirtle's army and instantly loses the game, because meanwhile one DT appears in each of his mineral lines and he has no energy on his other OC. Needless to say, the "weak" gate units with the support of 3 Immortals and the Nexus Cannon were already making short work of his Medivac push anyway. So to sum up, Polt was punished for playing right: stays conservative against an all-in, then is left behind when Protoss decides to press the macro button. There is quite a bit of inconsistency here I am afraid. I went through the trouble and watched the game, Polt made quite a few crucial mistakes. First of all he very early and smartly scouted with an scv and saw the 10gate coming, furthermore blocked the natural with an ebay - he did not cancel mind you. The trouble terran could face by going 1 rax reaper expand is that the bunker could be up late - and it was late but not because Squirtle was so fast at his base but because Polt - god knows why - put it on the lowground next to his ramp. this aggression is virtually over if the bunker is "up" and a couple of marines are inside. Fine, did not happen, Squirtle did a bit of damage, killed a couple of Marines and SCVs for a zealot and 2 stalkers - I would not consider this going very well for the Toss. After that you pointed out Polt had to guess so much - there are like 3 possible 1 base allins or busts possible - via air with oracles/VRs, by going Immos or a Blink allin(which is terrible btw on belshir since you have like 2 entry points, one is going up the ramp...) So Squirtle went Immo with a proxy robo. Polt knew an allin had to come, since the ebay was still there, and had to gather info what it was. The Reaper did fine by going to the main and scouting a bit around seeing the 3 gates now KNOWING something is coming - BUT not sending an SCV or Marine out for more info,even worse, going for a useless and expensive sensor tower(which according to Liquipedia is 125/100 and not 150/125 but nvm.) is baffling to be honest - Lucifron in this regard did a better job by scouting rather infamous proxy positions in the game against Naniwa. Then the actual attack with 3 immos,like 4 sentries and some other gateway units occured - Polt had hardly any trouble deflecting it by having enough units and scaring Squirtle away with a lot of bunkers - and be ahead eco wise since he has 2 orbitals and mules are pretty good in these kind of situations. However Squirtle killing the supply depot on the ramp and a couple of bunkers expanded behind while containing Polt who had to wait for medivacs. Looking at the VOD it was not a "coinflip" going for the DTs after all this but rather a calculated risk as Squirtle killed everything blocking the entry to Polts base and in addition saw a sensor tower but no turrets up. When - finally - Polt moved out he of course wanted this to be his turn to throw the punches and went for the natural in full force while being vulnerable at home. While attacking the natural everything fell completely apart for him and he did not concentrate on either front but it spiraled into a quick gg. Mind you - before Polt attacked they were both on around equal eco but not tech - Squirtle had gateway Immortal army and DTs but no splash and no upgrades --> MMM under normal circumstances rapes this and I guess that's also the reason why Polt went in full force while in midfight got his attention diverted towards DTs slashing at his eco. Scrappy game with a bit of luck for Squirtle, but Polt far from playing optimally. //edit: this is the game in question for people interested in the discussion. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRYOxNWwUQ8
You pretty much stated your disagreement but then proceed to repeat everything TheDWF had said, which only reinforces his point that it is so difficult to guess the string of protoss allins and not overcompensating, compared to the ease of executing the 3-barrel allin play from protoss. I was semi-convinced when I read theDWF, and I'm now more convinced he is right thanks to you.
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Down here in Silver, there's all sorts of rides, and cotton candy, and noobs too.
Do they FLOAT?
YEAs... they float... and when you're down here with me... YOU'LL FLOAT TOO!
User was warned for this post
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On July 16 2013 09:31 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 07:34 Doublemint wrote:A particularly obnoxious example of the stupidly skewed risk/reward of all those coinflips can be found in Polt vs Squirtle, Bel'shir Vestige, Gigabyte Pro Cup: 10 gate (first coinflip) into proxy Immortal (second one) into expanding 7 minuts later than Terran (salvaging the two previous coinflips because Polt is prepared) into winning with the final DT coinflip. After the 10 gate is held, the Reaper scouts Squirtle's base and finds 3 gates. What is he doing? What tech is proxied? Stargate? Council? Robotics? Have fun guessing. Bad luck, judging by his Sensor Tower it seems Polt decided it was Blink Stalkers: good job, 150/125 (= a bit more than the cost of a factory) wasted. Well, he's safe, isn't he? "Better be safe than sorry," blabla. Yep. He's safe, so Squirtle salvages 11 minuts of "all-in" with a Nexus and techs a Dark shrine. Medivacs are out at 12'45, i. e. 3 minuts later than the usual timing, which means Squirtle had all the time to catch up in eco/tech. At 14'05 Polt scans Squirtle's army and instantly loses the game, because meanwhile one DT appears in each of his mineral lines and he has no energy on his other OC. Needless to say, the "weak" gate units with the support of 3 Immortals and the Nexus Cannon were already making short work of his Medivac push anyway. So to sum up, Polt was punished for playing right: stays conservative against an all-in, then is left behind when Protoss decides to press the macro button. There is quite a bit of inconsistency here I am afraid. I went through the trouble and watched the game, Polt made quite a few crucial mistakes. First of all he very early and smartly scouted with an scv and saw the 10gate coming, furthermore blocked the natural with an ebay - he did not cancel mind you. The trouble terran could face by going 1 rax reaper expand is that the bunker could be up late - and it was late but not because Squirtle was so fast at his base but because Polt - god knows why - put it on the lowground next to his ramp. this aggression is virtually over if the bunker is "up" and a couple of marines are inside. Fine, did not happen, Squirtle did a bit of damage, killed a couple of Marines and SCVs for a zealot and 2 stalkers - I would not consider this going very well for the Toss. After that you pointed out Polt had to guess so much - there are like 3 possible 1 base allins or busts possible - via air with oracles/VRs, by going Immos or a Blink allin(which is terrible btw on belshir since you have like 2 entry points, one is going up the ramp...) So Squirtle went Immo with a proxy robo. Polt knew an allin had to come, since the ebay was still there, and had to gather info what it was. The Reaper did fine by going to the main and scouting a bit around seeing the 3 gates now KNOWING something is coming - BUT not sending an SCV or Marine out for more info,even worse, going for a useless and expensive sensor tower(which according to Liquipedia is 125/100 and not 150/125 but nvm.) is baffling to be honest - Lucifron in this regard did a better job by scouting rather infamous proxy positions in the game against Naniwa. Then the actual attack with 3 immos,like 4 sentries and some other gateway units occured - Polt had hardly any trouble deflecting it by having enough units and scaring Squirtle away with a lot of bunkers - and be ahead eco wise since he has 2 orbitals and mules are pretty good in these kind of situations. However Squirtle killing the supply depot on the ramp and a couple of bunkers expanded behind while containing Polt who had to wait for medivacs. Looking at the VOD it was not a "coinflip" going for the DTs after all this but rather a calculated risk as Squirtle killed everything blocking the entry to Polts base and in addition saw a sensor tower but no turrets up. When - finally - Polt moved out he of course wanted this to be his turn to throw the punches and went for the natural in full force while being vulnerable at home. While attacking the natural everything fell completely apart for him and he did not concentrate on either front but it spiraled into a quick gg. Mind you - before Polt attacked they were both on around equal eco but not tech - Squirtle had gateway Immortal army and DTs but no splash and no upgrades --> MMM under normal circumstances rapes this and I guess that's also the reason why Polt went in full force while in midfight got his attention diverted towards DTs slashing at his eco. Scrappy game with a bit of luck for Squirtle, but Polt far from playing optimally. //edit: this is the game in question for people interested in the discussion. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRYOxNWwUQ8 You pretty much stated your disagreement but then proceed to repeat everything TheDWF had said, which only reinforces his point that it is so difficult to guess the string of protoss allins and not overcompensating, compared to the ease of executing the 3-barrel allin play from protoss. I was semi-convinced when I read theDWF, and I'm now more convinced he is right thanks to you.
We were talking about the same game, coming to similar but not identical conclusions sometimes is nothing out of the ordinary one would think. And I pointed out more than that besides.
Key points you missed ->
1. bunker on the lowground was pretty bad by Polt to deflect a 10gate, although delaying the zealot so much was excellent and the right thing to do which makes it even more a shame he built it there.
2. It's not so much a guessing game if you scout at the usual proxy locations, time was not the problem and the T knew something is up by having his ebay at the Protoss natural - Polt did not do that but instead he went for a SENSOR TOWER, spending money on ANYTHING other than that would have been better. And 125mins/100 gas are a lot to waste.
3. When they were both on about equal economy but Polt way ahead on tech he got punished for having no detection at home in the middle of a fight at the P natural.
If instead he played it out a bit safer, go for at least detection at his natural and having rallied units there, drops in main and spreads Squirtle thin who basically had NO tech but gateway and some immortals/DT - T gets more ahead.
I think I cant emphasize enough how bad gateway units do against MMM without any splash like Colossus or HTs.
Again Squirtle got lucky and everything went his way, but all THANKS to the T not having any detection that late game and quite a chain of bad or missed reactions before by Polt which led to this very bitter defeat.
You are welcome.
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On July 16 2013 07:07 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 06:54 submarine wrote:On July 16 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 05:38 SirPinky wrote:On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans. I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base. I don't agree and think terran has some of the most robust scouting in the game, including scans. Its not perfect, but what is? As a protoss, I have played blind when a terran has denied me the scouting information I need by sniping and obs. Or it arrives a second to late and you see half an army with no medivacs and you know that 2 of them are out there, comming for it. Once again, the grass is always greener. I am sure zergs could tell me how bad it is for them too and how hard it is to scout protoss all-in. I could tell stories about how many roach rushes I have lost to because both my scouting probes got picked off. In the early game it is often better to mule instead of scan and build 2 turrets blindly. In the end It is still cheaper then a scan and you have the turrets. A scan costs 270 minerals. If you see that you need turrets you have to invest even more. 270 minarals less can cost you the game especially against certain all ins. yes in the end we might have the same TvP than we had in WoL, only with Terrans needing to invest a bit more into early game (static) defence (because of possible DT and oracle play) and protoss needing to invest less because of MSC. seems fair, no?
Doesn't seem fair at all to be honest with you. If Terran is investing in static defense in the beginning of the game then that leaves them no chance to play offensively in the midgame(which is absolutly necessary for Terran to win). Meanwhile since Protoss is investing less due to MSC then they can take that to play like Terran used to and play a pressure match. I REALLY don't like the TvP matchup to be honest with you.
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On July 16 2013 18:01 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On July 16 2013 06:54 submarine wrote:On July 16 2013 06:02 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 05:38 SirPinky wrote:On July 16 2013 02:19 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote:
Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. I think you miss the point that Terran is the only race that suffers from using their scouting ability; per scan is a few hundred minerals. All things equal, without mules, Terran economy is less than Zerg or Protoss. It is for this exact reason Zerg and Protoss ALWAYS have more workers than a Terran in the first 10 minutes (unless there is some all-in or timing attack). With miss scans it becomes a coin flip. And if ends up there is no "funny business" the Terran can be very behind in economy using superfluous scans. I think it's wrong a Zerg has the ability, with their ridiculous overlord speed, to essentially see everything going on in the Terrans base with only a 100 mineral sacrafice (not to mention changelings). Sometimes they don't even need to spend that by circumventing the sides of the base. I don't agree and think terran has some of the most robust scouting in the game, including scans. Its not perfect, but what is? As a protoss, I have played blind when a terran has denied me the scouting information I need by sniping and obs. Or it arrives a second to late and you see half an army with no medivacs and you know that 2 of them are out there, comming for it. Once again, the grass is always greener. I am sure zergs could tell me how bad it is for them too and how hard it is to scout protoss all-in. I could tell stories about how many roach rushes I have lost to because both my scouting probes got picked off. In the early game it is often better to mule instead of scan and build 2 turrets blindly. In the end It is still cheaper then a scan and you have the turrets. A scan costs 270 minerals. If you see that you need turrets you have to invest even more. 270 minarals less can cost you the game especially against certain all ins. yes in the end we might have the same TvP than we had in WoL, only with Terrans needing to invest a bit more into early game (static) defence (because of possible DT and oracle play) and protoss needing to invest less because of MSC. seems fair, no? Doesn't seem fair at all to be honest with you. If Terran is investing in static defense in the beginning of the game then that leaves them no chance to play offensively in the midgame(which is absolutly necessary for Terran to win). Meanwhile since Protoss is investing less due to MSC then they can take that to play like Terran used to and play a pressure match. I REALLY don't like the TvP matchup to be honest with you.
It's to be expected, I think nerfing Hellbats had the desired effect in TvT and TvZ but with how Blizzard structured the base damage, bonus damage and upgrades that Hellbats are no longer effective in PvT and the match up as a whole will suffer for it for the time being. The Banshee buff seems to have little impact, so maybe they'll try to continue to buff the Banshee into playability in PvT. It's ugly, but I think handing out bonus damage vs mechanical or shields where needed would do the trick.
Otherwise Blizzard is going to have to go after the Nexus Cannon with a nerf bat, maybe cut the duration to be no more than a single warp in round and be done with it.
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TvP was barely tolerable with super strong hellbats and as far as I know theres no reliable way to open banshees, its just a crap shoot hoping the Protoss derps and doesn't get both a robo and a forge. Ive been trying just normal hellion drops but nexus cannon + warpins + even a marginal observer spread means you almost never get to catch the Protoss off guard.
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EPT
