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maXX_CZ
Czech Republic19 Posts
Still, no other option than go MMM + mines (mby tanks) in TvZ and full composition vs Toss (sitting on 3 bases and macroing) and time to time die to his allin which you even cant scout on some maps (easy to defend ramp). By the way, seen just topic here on TL and terrans have overall worst winrate, so im happy they nerfed us a bit. What comes next? Marine 100 minerals and transformation for 50? -_- Just thinking about some one base allin i can do vs toss. Well.... nothing? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 15 2013 22:20 Cirqueenflex wrote: I'm still waiting for the SC2 terrans to catch up to SC1. Remember how many factories you would build in TvP? Screens full of them. In SC2, people seem to be content not building more than five, and then complain about how they can remax so slowly. I get that reactors double factory production for units that don't need tech labs, but building up to 10 factories at least when you do have the ressources bothers me a lot. Mech does not remax much slower than any other composition, as long as you have enough production going. Which is more costly than bio production to get up, but that is not the point here. Yeah, silly Terrans, not finding the hidden Spider Mine button on I mean, you seriously think that if the solution was that easy, "just build more facts," people wouldn't have understood that? | ||
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
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Quateras
Germany867 Posts
On July 16 2013 00:58 ZackAttack wrote: It amazes me every time I hear a Terran say they can't scout. Is scan not enough? Do you need an actual map hack? Its mostly because its completely unreliable to use scan. IF I'm honest, when i get terran (random) I'd say about 50% of my scans that i use for scouting give me basically no information whatsoever, because i dont get building x or unit y within the radius of the static scan. Its a really bad way to "scout". Reapers do help a lot though. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 16 2013 00:58 ZackAttack wrote: It amazes me every time I hear a Terran say they can't scout. Is scan not enough? Do you need an actual map hack? The thing they always go back to is that they need the mules to keep up. As a protoss who uses Chronoboost to keep up with mules, I always dislike spending it on warpgate or an obs. But sometimes, you need that shit fast to stay safe. Also, scans may not always get perfect information, but no scouting does. If you scan the protoss army and see no sentries, that likely means you need some missle turrents in the near future for either DTs or stargate non-sense. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 16 2013 00:58 ZackAttack wrote: It amazes me every time I hear a Terran say they can't scout. Is scan not enough? Do you need an actual map hack? Good luck scanning that. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Well to be fair, most standard protoss scounting wouldn't find that either. Zerg might due to the number of overlords, but maybe not. That is a case where the opponent would need to say "wait, where is all his gas going?" | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 16 2013 01:15 Plansix wrote: Well to be fair, most standard protoss scounting wouldn't find that either. Zerg might due to the number of overlords, but maybe not. That is a case where the opponent would need to say "wait, where is all his gas going?" Question is, can Terran threaten different proxies in such a way that you need the information because there is no universal answer such as MSC + some units + detection? And the answer to that is: no. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On July 16 2013 00:58 ZackAttack wrote: It amazes me every time I hear a Terran say they can't scout. Is scan not enough? Do you need an actual map hack? sacrificing 270 minerals to throw a dart on a board blindfolded doesn't even compare to ovvie/obs scouting -_- have u ever played terran? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 16 2013 01:21 TheDwf wrote: Question is, can Terran threaten different proxies in such a way that you need the information because there is no universal answer such as MSC + some units + detection? And the answer to that is: no. I don't really see a problem with that. All three races are different and can do different things. Protoss can have similar problems with zerg if they don't get good scouting information at the correct time. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 16 2013 01:28 Plansix wrote: I don't really see a problem with that. All three races are different and can do different things. Protoss can have similar problems with zerg if they don't get good scouting information at the correct time. You don't see a problem with Protoss being able to win x% of PvT thanks to lottery? Was the LucifroN vs Naniwa series at WCS something you'd want to see as a standard for 2013 PvT? I don't think the days of 1-1-1 on Xel'Naga Caverns were the highlights of TvP, and winning because you cast Forcefields on bunks or queued DTs in mineral lines from a random proxy Pylon isn't looking good either. Coinflips get old really fast when you're constantly on the losing end of them while MSC shuts down so many agressive Terran options on its own. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 16 2013 01:38 TheDwf wrote: You don't see a problem with Protoss being able to win x% of PvT thanks to lottery? Was the LucifroN vs Naniwa series at WCS something you'd want to see as a standard for 2013 PvT? I don't think the days of 1-1-1 on Xel'Naga Caverns were the highlights of TvP, and winning because you cast Forcefields on bunks or queued DTs in mineral lines from a random proxy Pylon isn't looking good either. Coinflips get old really fast when you're constantly on the losing end of them while MSC shuts down so many agressive Terran options on its own. Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. | ||
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
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Irre
United States646 Posts
On July 16 2013 01:48 ZackAttack wrote: I'm pretty happy with how fast you all got mad. Scanning is not like growing a dart at a dart board. It's not like the scan is random. You scan their base. If they have mined a lot of gas and you don't see what it was spent on, scout for proxies with an SCV. You guys at like Terran is the only race that can lose to an all in. Scan is actually the best scouting tool there is, and if you can't scout with a look anywhere you want on the map button, I don't know what you want? What else could help you scout things? The only way to make it easier is if you don't let Protoss bold pylons outside their base for the first few minutes. We pretty much are. MSC shuts down pretty much all terran aggression early on. All ins vs zerg have really never been good, and when Queen was buffed in WoL, and now the hellbat nerfed.. its pretty much up to 11/11 or 8/8/8 which is easily stopped if scouted. Whereas Protoss has so many all ins off 1 and 2 base to choose from that require perfect scouting and still can be insanely hard to stop. Same thing with zerg, only you cant really scout till the last minute, and its easy to just transition back to drones from there anyway and you can be really behind just by making extra defense. The scan is far from the best scouting...multiple observers, hallucinated pheonixes, MSC, oracle ability. and most of that protects you against cloaked units whereas we have to give up our possible detection or economy for a chance to scout. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 16 2013 01:48 Plansix wrote: Nani-wa loves proxy builds and does them all the time to punish greedy players. He also studies in opponent, which LucifroN clearly did not or he would not have played so greedy. There was one game where Nani-wa rolled across the map with nearly 40 supply in army, including 2 immortals and LucifroN had 10 supply in army. I can't feel bad when people play that greedy and that blind. Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. On July 16 2013 01:48 ZackAttack wrote: I'm pretty happy with how fast you all got mad. Scanning is not like growing a dart at a dart board. It's not like the scan is random. You scan their base. If they have mined a lot of gas and you don't see what it was spent on, scout for proxies with an SCV. You guys at like Terran is the only race that can lose to an all in. Scan is actually the best scouting tool there is, and if you can't scout with a look anywhere you want on the map button, I don't know what you want? What else could help you scout things? The only way to make it easier is if you don't let Protoss bold pylons outside their base for the first few minutes. I hope you realize all PvT builds "mine a lot of gas"? Fair enough that you know little about Terran, but can't you at least know your own race? How do you scout for proxies with a SCV when there can be a Stalker contain in front of your natural, with anything behind it—standard, 5g, fast third, anything? The Reaper is the only semi-reliable scouting tool and it's still map-dependant, frail and can be denied with proper unit placement. Scan is considerably inferior to Overlord sacrifices or MSC pokes / hallucinated Phoenixes / Observers to scout in early game, especially as the same infrastructure can lead to very different uses (a standard 3gR in PvT can randomly warp 2 rounds of stalks to try to kill your bunk and get an easy win, for instance, just as Roach Warren + dual evo can mean defensive Roaches into mutas or superagressive 3-bases Roaches/banes busts). The issue with Terran scouting in non-mirror match-ups primilarly lies in the nonsensical outbursts of production the two other races can get thanks to poorly thought macro mechanics, resulting in large amounts of resources being suddenly invested in attacks while Terran's infrastructure, which makes sense (slow, expensive, rigid, normal production, punishes banking as it should), is stretched thin to parry the threat in the minut. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 16 2013 02:03 Irre wrote: We pretty much are. MSC shuts down pretty much all terran aggression early on. All ins vs zerg have really never been good, and when Queen was buffed in WoL, and now the hellbat nerfed.. its pretty much up to 11/11 or 8/8/8 which is easily stopped if scouted. Whereas Protoss has so many all ins off 1 and 2 base to choose from that require perfect scouting and still can be insanely hard to stop. Same thing with zerg, only you cant really scout till the last minute, and its easy to just transition back to drones from there anyway and you can be really behind just by making extra defense. The scan is far from the best scouting...multiple observers, hallucinated pheonixes, MSC, oracle ability. and most of that protects you against cloaked units whereas we have to give up our possible detection or economy for a chance to scout. I think there is a saying for this: "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." All three races have the ability to all in each other at different times. Terran generally do not need to fear a cannon rush, but zerg good. 6 pools are not scare against terrans, but protoss fear them. The list goes on and on. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 16 2013 02:08 TheDwf wrote: Ah, the good old "Terrans are greedy bastards" story. Didn't see game 1 fully but there was not a single ounce of greed in game 2 and 3. It's funny to see this "punishing greed" (the most misused expression ever as people usually don't have a single clue what "greed" is for races they don't play) justification for stupid coinflips serving no purpose other than offering easy, comfortable bonus wins even when you're the inferior player (not discussing whether this was the case here or not). First, LucifroN scouted the Immortal all-in in the Bel'shir Vestige game, and had no way to scout the 4g pressure in Whirlwind because a SCV just won't sneak in the base when stalks are in front and gates could be anywhere. Second, why is there such a supply difference first in army? Of course because Terran fast expanded, but also because the stupid Warpgate production allows 3g to produce ~18 supply in one minut with basically zero distance, while 3 rax will get 6 Marines in the meantime. Scouted one-base all-ins should have abysmal chances of success if the opponent scouts them and prepares accordingly, and still a scouted one-base Protoss all-in in PvT is so strong that it can steamroll heavy defensive measures with pathetic ease. Yeah, LucifroN should have been better prepared. He KNEW he was playing Nani-wa, a player known for sharp timings and researching his opponents. Nani-wa is known for proxy builds(like how he eliminated Polt at Dreamhack) and LucifroN should have known he would try something like this. Polt didn't fall for it twice and splapped Nani-wa down at MLG. This is like with MC did 2 base all-ins for 9 months in WOL and players still got caught off guard by it. If your opponent is able to roll up with 40 army supply and you only have 10, you did not scout well. LucifroN had nearly 50 supply in workers at that point in the game. He messed up and did not scout well. If you think people should be able to play like that, I don't know what to tell you. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:09 lolcamel wrote: I should report you for not contributing anything  Pretty sure I was contributing the truth, but see it the way you want to. | ||
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midnight999
United States257 Posts
On July 15 2013 22:20 Cirqueenflex wrote: I'm still waiting for the SC2 terrans to catch up to SC1. Remember how many factories you would build in TvP? Screens full of them. In SC2, people seem to be content not building more than five, and then complain about how they can remax so slowly. I get that reactors double factory production for units that don't need tech labs, but building up to 10 factories at least when you do have the ressources bothers me a lot. Mech does not remax much slower than any other composition, as long as you have enough production going. Which is more costly than bio production to get up, but that is not the point here. Terran mech is just weak in general. Plus, Zerg and Protoss have ridiculous hard counters against it. | ||
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priestnoob
243 Posts
On July 16 2013 01:38 TheDwf wrote: You don't see a problem with Protoss being able to win x% of PvT thanks to lottery? . It's a design issue maybe, but hardly a balance one. In case you're not implying it's a balance issue, carry on. | ||
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