EPTlemme repost it on a ebwop in a bit. I apologize
Normal Mini Mafia II - Page 44
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
lemme repost it on a ebwop in a bit. I apologize | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
First: The second point puts forth the premise: prplhz cannot be scum if Sinensis is town. Problems in reasoning: Sinensis' alignment has no bearing on what a scum prplhz would do. If a scum prplhz didn't claim roleblock, he would have to produce a read. But even if he saw that a scum prplhz claiming not roleblocked as the stronger play, it shouldn't rule out Sinensis as scum. In fact, it would actually cast doubt on D77 the claimed jailor on the grounds of game balance. Sinensis has nothing to do with claiming roleblock or not. On this specific post he quoted, I didn't rule out Sinensis as scum. I said "Sinensis is town" -> "prplhz is town" The reason Sinensis and prplhz have a connection in alignment is Sinensis non-slip which I thought was slip - which I explained already. If Sinensis says "prplhz was not roleblocked", and I called it being a scum slip, a scum prplhz could simply say he wasn't roleblocked(and claim green read on MsZontar, w/e); That would make me want to lynch Sinensis, create suspicion on D77 and generate chaos that would benefit scum. slOosh is creating arguments that would catter to someone who has missed a part of the thread(because of activity or whatnot), forging an argument that does not exist. Next: How did Sinensis go into the confirmed pool? He considers the slip as null, but is using it to call him confirmed. There is an agenda here. Call Sinensis town. Why? So he can call prplhz town too based on weak reasoning. Also so he gets to push MrZentor, VE and BL. He critiques them for being on a Sinensis lynch, even though his reasoning for why Sinensis must be town is tenuous. [b]I never said I considered the slip as null. More argument forging. He went to the "confirmed" pool(which he used later on the same day on another post) by virtue of Occam's Razor, really. Simply put, it would be way too complicated for Sinensis to be scum and make that "non-slip" he did earlier. It's not a tenuous reasoning. It's logic. Next problem: His followup posts when marv addresses the flaws in thinking show that he wants to call prplhz town, but again on weak reasoning. It's basically "scum prplhz should have done this, and he didn't, therefore he is town". This has heavy, heavy contrast to his D1 assessment of him where he basically calls him scum every other post. Also note how fast he is to defend prplhz after the cop claim. Couple of other things which show faulty reasoning that doesn't fit conclusions. I called prplhz scum when everyone and their mother was calling him scum. It's not a coincidence that I posted the same case as the confirmed blue at the same minute. It's because me and marv have been synchronized for most of this game - for good and for bad. The case on prplhz was decent until he made a real post. And yes, I am using "scum prplhz should have done this, and he didn't, therefore he is town", and that is not weak reasoning. I am defending him after the cop claim, and I'd defend him without the cop claim, because I believe him to be town. The cop claim(and rb claim which confirmed D77) are just extras. "Couple other things" which aren't mentioned - argument forging. He is trying to deceive players in order to make me look bad at LYLO. Point that should be addressed: On July 10 2012 00:34 Zephirdd wrote: The issue I have with MrZentor lynch is... erm... MrZentor, what was your relation to MsZontar? Is she your wife, girlfriend, sister, friend, roommate...? Opposes a MrZentor lynch without a legitimate reason. This comes when his lynch actually starts building and rolling on D2. Wants to say "we shouldn't lynch MrZentor". Uses the reason "his relation with MsZontar is important"? I wanted to know his relation to MsZontar because it is important. If she was a wife, roommate or even girlfriend, I wouldn't take the idea that MrZentor, as town, would not help her into playing this game somehow. Clearly, he did a bad job in telling her that she should post more and make some analysis instead of going "I'm not sure ##vote Sinensis". Since it's her sister, however, it's understandable that they may not communicate much - I didn't want to go much further into their relationship since it's personal. And I was still null at MrZ at that point, and it was before some of his worse posts. Next~: Wants to call MrZentor scum. Reason: "He didn't read Sinensis' old games and come to the same conclusion that I did". Hell fucking yeah. If you're going to call someone scum, you better have a read on his meta. That's homework, really. If he didn't do this, I'm assuming he is just trying to create a faulty case and mislynch someone. And I'm also defending him with in-thread information(prplhz stuff), because I believe he is town and MrZentor is pushing for a mislynch. What the hell is wrong here? This is just a bad argument overall. Brings the MrZentor lynch option back again when the VE lynch is pretty much set. Additionally, discredits marv for no reason. Haunting clairvoyance (read as mafia know the town list), that VE is town. This is blatant misinterpreting of my post. I bring MrZentor lynch back when there is plenty of space for the whole town to decide which is a better lynch. There was what, 2 hours before the lynch? You said you would vote any of them, but you didn't do what you promised. I didn't discredit marv. I called the whole town(myself included) lazy. That's because we actually were lazy; The moment I decided to go back to MrZentor was the moment I decided to take a re-look at his filter. The moment I decided to not blindly follow marvellosity(confirmed town =/= correct town) and saw that MrZentor was much more likely to flip scum. Why would I, as scum, try to make people switch from a town(VE) into someone you say to be scum(MrZentor) with plenty of time in advance? Credit? Why would you, as town, claim to have the vote on "both" but not switch on the moment I tell people to switch? Do you realize there wasn't a MrZentor lynch because you didn't agree with it, and no-one wanted a no-lynch? Finally: He takes the quote that I say (my preference for VE over MrZentor lynch) as a sign that I am scum (who is hesitant to vote for scum buddy). Sure. But then he makes this post: Where now labels me scum, and therefore Zentor is scum in association with me. It's the complete opposite of what he just said. Because I'm hesitant to vote for Zentor, he must be scum? Then how am I scum? Zephirdd is making stuff up to push his agenda. I invite anyone to read the first and second passage of sloosh's. This is what he said: "He takes an argument and calls me and mrzentor scum. sure. But then he calls me and mrzentor scum!" And then he says its the opposite?! REALLY? That's blatantly forging of arguments in order to push a terrible, terrible case. This is not sloosh. This is an aberrant. Sloosh is a really, really good town player perfectly capable of making simple associations. You're hesitant to vote Zentor = You're scum because you said you would vote any of the players. You're hesitant to vote MrZentor AND you're scum -> MrZentor is scum(because why would you be ok with voting VE but not voting MrZentor when you said both were fine?) sloosh's reasoning to not lynching Zentor is terrible. Because he feels I'm wavering my read on VE, but he never considers that there is MrZentor as a fucking lynch candidate that he himself said he would vote no problem. Sloosh has been pushing a terrible, forged case in order to cast suspicion on a townie at LYLO. Sloosh is Aberrant. Tomorrow we will be lynching Sloosh, and the day after we will lynch MrZentor. By that time, it will be 2v1 and I'm pretty sure the remaining town(I doubt I'll live 'till then) will be able to find the last scum. Bonus: On July 11 2012 15:19 slOosh wrote: And marv I will play this card: who else seems to care about this game? I don't know how crap / reasonable I look because honestly I haven't lived past N1 for a long time, nor have I been the focus of VE's whatever you call it. Please just give my cases due consideration - that's all. This is appealing to emotion when unnecessary. This is a real scum trait. I care about this game as much as you do, except you care about it from a scummy perspective. You've been active, and you've been posting, but you've not done anything in town's interest.[/u] | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Busy for most of the day so will not be able to make detailed responses until later. Whoever is town needs to step up and help pick through this wreckage. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 11 2012 20:39 Zephirdd wrote: The reason Sinensis and prplhz have a connection in alignment is Sinensis non-slip which I thought was slip - which I explained already. If Sinensis says "prplhz was not roleblocked", and I called it being a scum slip, a scum prplhz could simply say he wasn't roleblocked(and claim green read on MsZontar, w/e); That would make me want to lynch Sinensis, create suspicion on D77 and generate chaos that would benefit scum. Zephirdd, we need to address this and we need to do it right now. I find the bolded entirely incorrect. 1) A cop not being rbed in this circumstance is an immediate lynch for the claimed cop. The possible wifom benefits for mafia of not roleblocking cop are FAR outweighed by the risks that prplhz gets a red check (or confirms another townie). i.e. prplhz claims not to be rbed, 100% he gets lynched the next day 2) For this reason it would not create suspicion on Dangeresque. What kinda fucktarded mafia team would roleblock some random townie (me) instead of a claimed cop? That's just nonsense thinking. Your whole viewpoint on this concerns me deeply. But you screwed around talking about Miller in Movie too :/ (bugs actually praised me for telling you to shut up in post-game analysis!). Please respond and indicate you understand | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
Maybe I'm wrong; point is: I believe in all of this, and that's the point in my counter-case vs sloosh. And yes, it would create suspicion on D77. First thing I would do upon prplhz claiming non-rb'd would be push for sinensis and then make a case on d77 and say his jailer claim is bs. This is my point of view. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
Zephirdd I don't understand why is Sinensis is on your "confirmed" list of people (not that I think he is scum), there is a CHANCE he is town and there is a CHANCE he is scum, if he does an action that makes people think he is TOWN, that doesn't confirm him yes? | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
Occam's Razor? I think it would be too complicated for Sinensis and/or prplhz to be scum based on what's happened so far. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
1. They roleblocked prplhz and Sinensis said that to deceive us all 2. prplhz and Sinensis are both scum and Sinensis said that even though he knew prplhz would claim to be rb'd 3. Sinensis is town and he said that by mistake Add that to following his town meta, and sloosh+zentor thing, and I say 3rd is the most likely of it all. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 11 2012 23:32 Zephirdd wrote: Just because it's not complicated, doesn't mean it's the simplest. And by that I mean "just because it's not too complicated, doesn't mean it's the simplest" | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
For your options, the assumptions are as follows: 1) Sinensis wanted to deceive us 2) Ditto 3) Sinensis made a mistake The assumption that Sinensis wanted to deceive us does not strike me as particularly more unlikely than he made a mistake. Or in terms of simplicity, 1) is extremely simple. Mafia wanted to deceive town. That's all. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
If we don't have a scum game to look at, how do we compare? Of course a scum Sinensis would try to play similarly to his town meta. It's why you have several players on this forum (out of this game alone, me, bugs, VE spring to mind) where it's pretty hard to distinguish our alignment because we play our scum meta so similarly to our town meta. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 09 2012 11:56 Sinensis wrote: I think Zephirdd's posts about VE are making a lot of sense. I agree with him that VE is a good target today and I will be voting for him today unless new, critical, info developes about anyone else. I have played many games with Bluelightz and I believe he is town this game and making one of the best efforts I've seen from him, I would be pretty shocked if he was mafia. I am glad vig shot Zontar I was going to have some issues with her posting today if she were still alive. I do not know if I still believe purplhz is cop, it's very unusual that he was not killed or at the very least role blocked, but I want to wait to see if he has something to say today. I do not really have thoughts about anyone else at this stage. I mean, it feels too natural the way he says it. That's the first reason why I yelled SLIP at it. Because it felt like it came out by mistake, not because it was thought out. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Then remember a whole bunch of his posts this game where he's having a go at people, emotionally lunging, playing with his heart on his sleeve or whatever? Look at how that post is constructed. That's not his 'careless' post structure (of which I could provide plenty of examples this game if you wish). That post is totally unemotional, clinical, and thought through. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On July 09 2012 12:54 Sinensis wrote: EWBOP I should at least try to explain. You are right, I don't know prplhz was not roleblocked, I assumed he wasn't and wanted to see if he would clarify later. That's why I haven't voted. Because there is information I'm missing. The second part of that sentence you didn't bold was pretty important to the overall message. Sigh. I remember laughing hard when I saw that, because it took so long for him to write it(I actually went on a F5 spree at that point). Three minutes since his "This is going to end poorly for town". This is a mechanical, too-thought-out post. God damnit marv. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Stop. Ask yourself. Is it because the D2 lynch went sour and you want someone to blame? Then why me? What specifically did I do something to make the VE lynch happen that could only be scummy? The only thing that Zeph is critiquing me for is a "faulty" case (it's not), and the "I won't vote for MrZentor", which I'll address first. On July 11 2012 20:39 Zephirdd wrote: You're hesitant to vote Zentor = You're scum because you said you would vote any of the players. You're hesitant to vote MrZentor AND you're scum -> MrZentor is scum(because why would you be ok with voting VE but not voting MrZentor when you said both were fine?) sloosh's reasoning to not lynching Zentor is terrible. Because he feels I'm wavering my read on VE, but he never considers that there is MrZentor as a fucking lynch candidate that he himself said he would vote no problem. At this point I think VE is scum, or at least someone I want to lynch regardless. Now that I've cooled off I realize that at the time I was pissed off at VE for his passive aggressiveness and really poor play, as well as how he kept throwing crap at me without anything substantial that I just wanted him dead. I've never seen an emotional aspect to mafia until yesterday. I got emotionally involved. I said earlier in the day I would be ok with lynching both. By the end of the day VE had sufficiently pissed me off, that I wanted to kill him. People were expressing how they didn't want to kill him. I was frustrated how town was chickening themselves out of every single lynch on the "oh man the meta doesn't fit I'm nervous". But, in my situation, why wouldn't I prefer the VE lynch? In my situation, where I thought both were scum, and that VE would be incredibly harder to lynch and if we let him go now then how are we going to lynch him later since this town obviously has a problem with lynching people, why wouldn't I prefer the VE lynch? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
You're scum because you're playing differently than usual (not merely 'more confidently' as per Movie analysis). You're scum because you have several posts where my brow furrowed at the train of thought which pretty much never happens to me with town slOosh. You're scum because I was backing down from VE based on an emotional gut reaction to the fact he was dumping a shitload of information on to town, you effectively bullied me into voting for him without apparently at all considering his defence. | ||
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