EPTNews: Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Flotilla - Page 41
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OutOfOrder
United States8 Posts
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Ciryandor
United States3735 Posts
On June 03 2010 15:40 OutOfOrder wrote: I agree with you completely that they take the harder shitstorm buddy, but on the other hand Hamas is far less willing to negotiate than the Israeli government. They are NOT liked by their people as you might be inclined to believe and they happily shut down anyone who opposes, which is why you don't get to hear the opinion of the actual population in Gaza, only a small radical minority. I'd like to add that the Palestinians in exile, those not trapped in Israel, suffer under worse conditions in refugee camps. It's been half a century and they aren't even moving because the countries that "host" them don't recognize them as refugees. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2983 Posts
On June 03 2010 15:39 OutOfOrder wrote: Well it has been 60 years, and if you think that Israel is going anywhere that's a little too late. There have been many proposals over the years by a bunch of 3rd party agents to split things up, all of which were shut down by the Palestinians authorities because its not the entire country basically. And in my book any attack aimed at harming civilians is terrorism. I'd love a better definition.. I wasn't saying that Israel should dissapear, I know it's impossible. I just think because of the circumstances of it's birth, the Palestinians' anger is understandable and unlike what many ppl believe, Israel is the agressor and no matter how you solve the deal, Palestinian will still eventually get screwed. But I'm perfectly aware that the Hamas is also fuelling the conflict to keep it's influence on the palestinian society. | ||
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OutOfOrder
United States8 Posts
Edit: Yes, people died on that flotilla, but I believe that it was just a situation that went wrong and I do not blame soldiers who tried to protect their life. They are taking orders from a higher command and watching your friends get stabbed and beaten is very distressing. The firearms were saved as a last resort, hence why they didn't land on the boat with live ammo rifles. I don't justify this, and I believe in retrospect they could have been disabled more efficiently and perhaps with no lives lost, maybe using tear gas. But you cant judge their actions based solely on what could have happened. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this. The purpose of the aid flotilla was almost certainly not primarily that of providing aid. Rather the purpose was likely to shift public opinion against Israel. There was a very popular book in the 1950s by Leon Uris called "Exodus", which became an international bestseller and which purpose was to paint the new state of Israel in a positive light whilst turning opinion against the Arabs, and at the same time portray Israel as throwing off the shackles of British power. There is an article on StratFor which analyzes this possible thread. Regardless, if one goal of the flotilla was to influence popular opinion, it certainly succeeded in that thus far. It's kind of interesting that Israel would fall to this ploy when it was used to their great benefit in the past. Link to the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_(novel) | ||
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blomsterjohn
Norway472 Posts
What use is there in discussing this with you when you put daily rockets inside quote marks and question their status as acts of terror? Uhh i pretty much agree with the goldstone report, which states that both sides have commited crimes; however that still doesn't justify any of it, and the scale we're talking is pretty sick. And you who say Palestina never will recognize Israel (correct me if im wrong as i cant bother reading the 40pages of posts): as far as i remember Palestina has been more than willing to resume peace talks, aslong as Israel halts all settlements and Jerusalem expansion, no? Something mr netahnayoo-crazyface has bluntly denied`? | ||
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Ciryandor
United States3735 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:27 blomsterjohn wrote: And you who say Palestina never will recognize Israel (correct me if im wrong as i cant bother reading the 40pages of posts): as far as i remember Palestina has been more than willing to resume peace talks, aslong as Israel halts all settlements and Jerusalem expansion, no? Something mr netahnayoo-crazyface has bluntly denied`? To answer this; I think what people are referring to not accepting Israel is not the country nor the people per se, but political groups like Hamas, who have publicly stated that they would not accept Israel's existence, which happens to be a major roadblock since they have political and de facto military control over the Gaza Strip.. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 03 2010 14:56 ChApFoU wrote: Yeah, because Fox news is a know source of unbiased information. When you support a cause, the whole point is to avoid licking the nuts of your enemies. Israel has no authority whatsoever in this area, I pity the Israeli civilians who died since the start of this conflict but honestly they just reap what their retarded governement and military sow. Israel's authority on the area (international waters) is not obvious to one side or the other. Stop claiming it is without proof. Does anyone else find it funny, how this can so easily be turned around to justify Israel's actions: But honestly, they (Palestinians) just reap what their retarded government and military (Hamas) sow. t provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:27 blomsterjohn wrote: Uhh i pretty much agree with the goldstone report, which states that both sides have commited crimes; however that still doesn't justify any of it, and the scale we're talking is pretty sick. And you who say Palestina never will recognize Israel (correct me if im wrong as i cant bother reading the 40pages of posts): as far as i remember Palestina has been more than willing to resume peace talks, aslong as Israel halts all settlements and Jerusalem expansion, no? Something mr netahnayoo-crazyface has bluntly denied`? Their long-term goal is the destruction of Israel. This is well-documented. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:31 Squeegy wrote: Israel's authority on the area (international waters) is not obvious to one side or the other. Stop claiming it is without proof. Does anyone else find it funny, how this can so easily be turned around to justify Israel's actions: But honestly, they (Palestinians) just reap what their retarded government and military (Hamas) sow. t provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace I'm glad it finally came out of you after countless "well we don't know, let's wait", "it's too complicated". Seems like we do know now, it's just retarded Palestinian government and military.  On June 03 2010 16:35 jalstar wrote: Their long-term goal is the destruction of Israel. This is well-documented. Their? And well-documented too! Can i see? | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:37 condoriano wrote: I'm glad it finally came out of you after countless "well we don't know, let's wait", "it's too complicated". Seems like we do know now, it's just retarded Palestinian government and military. Their? And well-documented too! Can i see? Uh, what? | ||
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WinHouse
Australia58 Posts
Dissent from leftist isrealis Also UN rights body approves flotilla inquiry | ||
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
On June 03 2010 15:32 KillerPenguin wrote: I'm sure that if Palestine would stop shooting rockets, sending suicide bombers, and threatening the state of Israel with statements about how they are illegitimate and do not deserve to exist Israel would gladly leave them alone. I'm also sure that if Israel lets Palestine do w/e they want Palestine will build up more weapons and kill many more Israelis because that is their stated goal. What happened is sad but wtf do you expect Isreal to do they just want to stop Hamas from getting weapons to do what Hamas says it wants to do destroying Isreal. Just imagine if a bum on the street came up to u and started talking about how he was going to kill you. Would you be a little paranoid if you thought he was serious? I hope you would. The problem is the Arab world does not see this rationally, they support the terrorism against Israel because it becomes religious to them and a matter of fellow Muslims vs Zionists and Crusaders. The amount of people in the US that think the world is 6k years old and evolution is a shame is troubling but the amount of Muslims that believe Americans are the sons of Satan or that Israel should be wiped off the map is even more troubling, some of the polls taken of people in Arab countries are almost unbelievable. It's not Palestine it's the terrorist group Hamas funded by the not so friendly neighborhood Iran. | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:31 Squeegy wrote: Israel's authority on the area (international waters) is not obvious to one side or the other. Stop claiming it is without proof. Israel did not have any authority in International waters. The San Remo documents used to justify their incursion into international waters would only apply if Israel was in a state of war with Palestine. Israel themselves have repeatedly declared they are NOT at war with Hamas. This is because, if Israel are openly at war, then Hamas cannot be declared a "terrorist organization," since Israel refuse to recognise Hamas as a legitimate government, they cannot legally be at war with them. Secondly, if Israel were at war with Hamas then the rocket attacks from Hamas into Israel would be legal acts of war. Hence the Israeli Government is firm in it's stance that it is NOT in a state of war and NOT occupying Palestinian territory. Apart from this, the blockade of Gaza is also illegal as it is in contradiction to the UN resolution that calls for UNRESTRICTED aid to be allowed into Gaza. The blockade by Israel is a clear violation of this resolution. By allowing only 25% of the required aid (as stated by the UN and EU) into gaza and by arbitrarily restricting items such as Chocolates, Pasta, Pencils and notebooks from being delivered they are inflicting collective punishment on the civilian population of gaza in violation of international law and UN resolutions. Does anyone else find it funny, how this can so easily be turned around to justify Israel's actions: But honestly, they (Palestinians) just reap what their retarded government and military (Hamas) sow. t provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace This is a misguided viewpoint. Regardless of what Hamas does or does not do, Israel has acted illegally in inflicting collective punishment on the civilian population of Gaza as this is specifically forbidden under the Fourth Geneva Convention on Human Rights, to which, I believe, Israel is a signatory. As for the Flotilla, it was absolutely a peaceful flotilla. Israeli claims to the contrary notwithstanding. | ||
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Kazius
Israel1456 Posts
On June 03 2010 17:18 Klaz wrote: This is a misguided viewpoint. Regardless of what Hamas does or does not do, Israel has acted illegally in inflicting collective punishment on the civilian population of Gaza as this is specifically forbidden under the Fourth Geneva Convention on Human Rights, to which, I believe, Israel is a signatory. As for the Flotilla, it was absolutely a peaceful flotilla. Israeli claims to the contrary notwithstanding. No it wasn't - if it was for a peaceful solution, they'd go via Ashdod harbor, where they could be searched for weapons, and then all aid would be sent to Gaza. This was a publicity stunt, and the result is the topic of the thread. Not "Israel Defends Blockade" (pro-Israeli) or "Conflict on the Gazan Blockade" (neutral) but rather "Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Floatilla" (anti-Israeli). This (as an Israeli) does not surprise me, as I have seen every major media outlet use similar language for over 20 years now (when suicide bombers struck Israel in the mid-90s, CNN would use "killed" for the victims instead of "murdered", which was particularly antagonizing). I have previously posted in this thread here in order to give what I think is a more complete view of the situation, but the bottom line, that just the subject line on this forum (while is obviously a good one to create a massive flame war) has already made more of an impact than anything I could say. The bottom line is that after decades of media treatment in this line, people have already decided what their opinions are before delving further into the details of the conflict. That being said, I do not believe Israel handled this well, but after Israel left Gaza, Hamas did whatever they could to escalate the conflict and bring it to this point, as unfortunately this level of conflict keeps them in charge opposed to the much more moderate and secular groups. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
FM Livni to President Sarkozy in Paris (1 Jan 2009): "The war that Israel is waging against Hamas is one of the fronts of the war against extremist forces operating in the region. Hamas thought that Israel would agree to a reality in which its citizens are fired at on a daily basis, and today they understand that they were mistaken… We must understand and emphasize that it is these same terrorists who are today hiding in bunkers in Gaza who brought this suffering on the residents of the Gaza Strip. "Hamas is responsible for what is happening in Gaza, and Hamas is to blame for the situation of its residents." FM Livni's address to the Knesset (29 Dec 2008): "Hamas is an extremist Islamic organization that does not represent any of the Palestinian people’s aspirations, but rather is ruling them for its own ends and purposes. Hamas does not recognize the existence of Israel or Israel’s right to exist here. It lives off fear and hate. Hamas receives support from Iran and Syria, in the form of money, weapons, and training. Hamas is a terrorist organization. "Hamas, which is ruling Gaza, refuses to accept the three conditions of recognizing Israel, renouncing terror, and accepting previous agreements. "Israel has been under attack from Gaza for the past eight years. We did everything we could to prevent a deterioration of the situation. We agreed to the calm that was immediately violated by Hamas when it refused to advance the release of Gilad Shalit, continued to arm itself, and continued firing. The calm was violated by Hamas. Hamas is the party responsible for violating the calm. "Hamas is a terrorist organization – and we are treating it as such….Israel would like to reiterate to anyone with complaints about the [Gazan] population, to redirect them to the party directly responsible for the population’s situation – Hamas, which is holding the population hostage. "Hamas is a problem for the entire Palestinian people and not just Israel’s problem. … The road to peace passes through the war on terror, extremism, hate and incitement, which means a war against Hamas and those like Hamas." PM Olmert to Cabinet (17 Feb 2008): "There is an almost daily war in the south and terrorist leaders are certainly a target. We will not slacken on this issue and we will continue to struggle in order to reduce to nil the threat that is upsetting the quality of life of residents of the south. Of course, there are also other measures that we are using, including sanctions and striking at the supply of materials that could serve the terrorist organizations, including energy, and this is being carried out according to the decision of the Cabinet, in coordination with the considerations of the security establishment at the behest of Defense Minister Ehud Barak, with my assent." All taken from http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism- Obstacle to Peace/Hamas war against Israel/The Hamas war against Israel- Statements by Israeli leaders.htm Seems to me like at the very least they were at war with Hamas. And I'm not aware of them signing a peace treaty. Yes, it is a misguided viewpoint and that is my point exactly. It's funny though that you, and apparently the other guy earlier, only find flaw in it when I turn it upside-down in Israel's favor. Neither israelis or palestinians deserve this. Yes, it was absolutely peaceful. The knives were only used to cut butter and the batons only as walking sticks. Oh, and the videos were forged. | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
On June 03 2010 17:58 Kazius wrote: No it wasn't - if it was for a peaceful solution, they'd go via Ashdod harbor, where they could be searched for weapons, and then all aid would be sent to Gaza. I'm afraid that you are simply parroting the usual IDF disinformation on this issue that I will attempt to correct. 1) If they had followed Israeli instructions to go to Ashdod the Israelis would have taken control of the aid and then would have done what they always do. i.e. restrict the flow of the aid to a rate at less than 25% of what's required by the suffering populace of gaza and also remove items that they arbitrarily ban. Such as I've listed above eg chocolate, pasta, notebooks, pencils etc. So what the Israeli government was offering was not a viable alternative or compromise but simply the maintainence of an illegal and indeed immoral status quo. 2) This idea of "weapons searches" is the smoke and mirrors that the Israeli government has been using all along to inflict collective punishment on the people of gaza. How else do you explain the presence of PASTA in the list of prohibited items? Firstly, the ships were searched at their departing ports in Europe, as well as Turkey (who until a couple of days ago were a major ally and trading partner of the Israeli government), as well as at Cyprus. The flotilla organisers also had no problem with Israeli officials checking their cargo at Turkey or Cyprus, or indeed Gaza port (which Israel control). But the fact is that Israel's real motivation was not to search for weapons but to limit and restrict the flow of aid. This was a publicity stunt, and the result is the topic of the thread. I disagree. The humanitarians on the flotilla wanted to show solidarity with the people of Gaza and show them that the world had not forgotten their plight. They also wanted to bring moral pressure to bear on the Israeli government to stop their illegal punishment of the 1.5 million civilians living in conditions far worse than that of many prisons. The topic of the thread is not becuase of what the flotilla did, but because of what the Israeli government did. I.E. use a military attack on ships carrying humanitarian aid in international waters in the middle of the night. Moreover, they botched the operation BADLY and that is why you see the headlines that you see. Not "Israel Defends Blockade" (pro-Israeli) or "Conflict on the Gazan Blockade" (neutral) but rather "Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Floatilla" (anti-Israeli). This (as an Israeli) does not surprise me, as I have seen every major media outlet use similar language for over 20 years now (when suicide bombers struck Israel in the mid-90s, CNN would use "killed" for the victims instead of "murdered", which was particularly antagonizing). I have previously posted in this thread here in order to give what I think is a more complete view of the situation, but the bottom line, that just the subject line on this forum (while is obviously a good one to create a massive flame war) has already made more of an impact than anything I could say. The bottom line is that after decades of media treatment in this line, people have already decided what their opinions are before delving further into the details of the conflict. I submit that the real tragedy is that the Israeli people have become too introspective and do not realise that there is a legitimacy behind the way the world sees them. As for media bias, many argue that there is a lot of bias in support of Israel, and the U.S. support of Israel. BBC, CNN etc. still use the term "killed" for innocent victims of IDF atrocities, not "murdered". The bottom line is that Israel needs to wake up, act in a more humane manner and quit treating the palestinian people with such disdain and brutality. Because whether you like it or not, the world is waking up to the fact that the way the Israeli government is behaving now is not at all far away from the behaviour of the Apartheid regime in South Africa. That being said, I do not believe Israel handled this well, but after Israel left Gaza, Hamas did whatever they could to escalate the conflict and bring it to this point, as unfortunately this level of conflict keeps them in charge opposed to the much more moderate and secular groups. To blame Hamas for escalating the conflict is disingenious. While I have no time for Hamas or their actions, the Israeli government have acted equally (and because they have more power and they don't hesitate to use it more) deplorably. I don't believe the current Israeli government is interested in peace, they simple use Hamas as a convenient bogey man to continue to act with impunity. The fact that they continue to build illegal settlements on occupied land in the West Bank (where Hamas are not in charge, but rather the Palestinian authority, with whom Israel have peaceful relations and who they recognize as legitimate government) is evidence of their true intentions. | ||
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Number41
United States130 Posts
"Israel has an absolute right to deal with its security interest," Biden said in an interview on PBS's "Charlie Rose" show, while reiterating the Obama administration's support for a transparent, impartial investigation of what happened. "What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza?" he asked. "Well, it's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping eight -- 3,000 rockets on my people,"' he said, referring to Hamas, the Islamist movement which rejects interim peace terms with Israel and has regularly fired rockets into the Jewish state. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/03/biden-israel-right-stop-gaza-ships/ | ||
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WinHouse
Australia58 Posts
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
On June 03 2010 18:02 Squeegy wrote: There is a difference between the use of the word "war" by politicians and other commentators in the media or in speeches and between the legal act of "war", which is governed by various provisions in international law. This is not an unimportant distinction. For example, the U.S. government's much publicized war on drugs. The term "war" is used often, but it is not a "war" in any legal sense. It's more a political slogan to stoke public opinion and stress the severity of the action to point out that the problems with drugs are so severe, "as if they were at war," with drug dealers. Of course they aren't at war, because drug dealers are not part of an independent soverign nation and when captured they are prosecuted in CIVILIAN US courts and not treated as prisoners of war under the articles of the Geneva convention. Now to Israel and Hamas. Israel do not recognise Hamas as a legitimate government. If they did they could not declare them a terrorist organisation. Israel have very good reasons for doing this. For example, if they recognise Hamas as a government, then they have to abide by the rules of war, which includes the treatment of prisoners. But Israel claims that captured Hamas operatives are not in fact soldiers and therefore it does not need to treat them as prisoners of war as mandated by the geneva convention. This is the legal protection that ISRAEL claims for its treatment of hamas "detainees." Israel cannot have it both ways. Either, it is at war with Hamas (a legitimate government of Palestine), in which case it must respect the articles of the Geneva convention and treat Hamas fighters as legitimate soldiers of war and therefore prisoners of war who have rights. And it can THEN claim legal protection for its blockade or its attack on the aid flotilla. Or it treats Hamas as a terrorist organisation and therefore does not afford it the rights that it would have to under the rules of war and the rules governing the treatment of prisoners of war under the articles of the Geneva convention, in which case it cannot claim the legal protection of war for its attack on the aid flotilla. From your quotes above, its pretty clear that Israel does not recognise the legitimacy of Hamas and considers it as a terrorist organisation. Furthermore, Israel claims that Hamas SHOULD not be subject to the protection of the geneva convention. Once it makes that claim, it cannot rightfully claim those same protections for itself. Yes, it is a misguided viewpoint and that is my point exactly. It's funny though that you, and apparently the other guy earlier, only find flaw in it when I turn it upside-down in Israel's favor. Neither israelis or palestinians deserve this. What don't the Israelis deserve? The Israeli people are not living under anywhere near the conditions the Palestinian population are subject to. Of course Hamas are a terrible blight and deserve to be disbanded, but this cannot and should not be used by the government of Israel to punish the innocent civilians of Gaza. Yes, it was absolutely peaceful. The knives were only used to cut butter and the batons only as walking sticks. Oh, and the videos were forged. They were unarmed civilians. That found themselves under attack in international waters. EVEN IF we take the Israeli version of events at face value (which I do not), they were perfectly, LEGALLY entitled to defend themselves from the assault. And yes, attacking a ship carrying the flag of another country, in international waters, with violent (lethal or otherwise) force, with ships and helicopters and landing armed soldiers onto the ship IS an assault. The civilians on board genuinely feared for their lives and had every right to try and defend themselves. "Mohamed Vall, Al Jazeera reporter The Israeli assault took those of us on the ship by complete surprise. During that hour an half in the early morning everybody on board the ship thought that no-one would survive the Israeli attack because we saw about 30 war vessels surrounding this ship and helicopters attacking with very luminous bombs, the sound of them makes you think you are dead That was a fear of war, complete war, on a ship that was full of men, women and even children." | ||
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