On June 03 2010 13:59 Abraxas514 wrote: This is precisely the propaganda that Islamic fundamentalists spread against Israel.
How many wars has Israel been the aggressor? Only the 6-day war in which it's borders were completely sieged.
How were palestinians living before the PLO began bombing Israel? Like landed immigrants in Canada.
When did Israel begin retaliating? Once the PLO and then Hamas began attacking the country.
Why is it so hard to believe Israel just wants peace, and that islamic fundamentalist only want war?
(I would like to point out for the sake of discussion that Judaism is the only major religion that is not proselytizing. Christianity attempted for a thousand years to proselytize all of Europe and Asia minor. Islam fundamentalists are currently trying very hard to proselytize the entire world via war, while non-violent Muslims hold the belief that through education the world will eventually believe in their religion. In Islam, EVERY one is born Muslim, therefore they should be taught in it's ways.
Jews have NEVER in history ever been interested in conquest. Israel is not an exception. Conquest simply is not part of the Jewish mentality. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, conquest is VERY much a part of Islamic fundamentalism.)
(I also would like to point out I respect non-violent Islamic attempts at conversion. Peaceful Islam is a beautiful religion.)
Honestly, this post just proves the futility at arguing against you. You really consider the Israeli Government leaders Jewish? Or the "Islamic" fundamentalist Muslims? Israeli government is smart because what they have done is merge state and religion together so that anybody talking against Israel, they label him/her as an anti semite. Religion, while beautiful, can be used for horrible things in the hands of horrible Men. Conquest not being part of Jewish mentality is IRRELEVANT. It's part of HUMAN mentality when at that level of power.
Abraxas514 it would be near impossible trying to persuade a jew. Anyway, I base my opinions on the things I see/read on the news. You can claim all you want (judaism is the peaceful religion etc., Israel only wants peace) but these claims are not connected to reality. If Israel wanted peace they would have had it by now (or some form of it). I don't know what exactly Islamic propaganda did to affect my view, I haven't experienced much of it. Considering the availability of access to media we should be afraid of jewish propaganda if anything.
Here's something for you to read, just stole it from wikipedia, it's long and sums up recent developments nicely. Not exactly what you have been trying to prove.
In July 2006, Hezbollah fighters crossed the border from Lebanon into Israel, attacked and killed eight Israeli soldiers, and abducted two others as hostages, setting off the 2006 Lebanon War which caused much destruction in Lebanon.[58] A UN-sponsored ceasefire went into effect on August 14, 2006, officially ending the conflict.[59] The conflict killed over a thousand people, mostly Lebanese civilians,[60][61][62][63][64] severely damaged Lebanese civil infrastructure, and displaced approximately one million Lebanese[65] and 300,000–500,000 Israelis, although most were able to return to their homes.[66][67][68] After the ceasefire, some parts of Southern Lebanon remained uninhabitable due to Israeli unexploded cluster bomblets.[69]
On September 6, 2007, in Operation Orchard, Israel bombed an eastern Syrian complex which was allegedly a nuclear reactor being built with assistance from North Korea.[70] Israel had also bombed Syria in 2003.
In April 2008, Syrian President Bashar Al Assad told a Qatari newspaper that Syria and Israel had been discussing a peace treaty for a year, with Turkey as a go-between. This was confirmed in May 2008 by a spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. As well as a peace treaty, the future of the Golan Heights is being discussed. President Assad was quoted in the The Guardian as telling the Qatari paper:
...there would be no direct negotiations with Israel until a new US president takes office. The US was the only party qualified to sponsor any direct talks, President Assad told the paper, but added that the Bush administration "does not have the vision or will for the peace process. It does not have anything." [71]
Speaking in Jerusalem on August 26, 2008, then United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice criticized Israel's increased settlement construction in the West Bank as detrimental to the peace process. Rice's comments came amid reports that Israeli construction in the disputed territory had increased by a factor of 1.8 over 2007 levels.[72]
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on December 19, 2008;[73] attempts at extending the truce failed amid accusations of breaches from both sides.[74][75][76][77] Following the expiration, Israel launched a raid on a tunnel suspected of being used to kidnap Israeli soldiers which killed several Hamas fighters.[78] Following this, Hamas resumed rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli cities, most notably firing over 60 rockets on December 24. On December 27, 2008, Israel launched Operation Cast Lead — a massive aerial assault and subsequent land invasion — against Hamas, beginning a major battle in Gaza. The Israeli Operation began with an intense bombardment of the Gaza strip, targeting Hamas bases, police training camps, police headquarters and offices. Civilian infrastructure, including mosques, houses and schools were also attacked with allegations being made by Israel that Hamas fighters were operating out of them. Throughout the conflict, Hamas and other organizations fired hundreds of rockets and mortar shells on Israeli cities. Human Rights groups and aid organizations have accused Israel and Hamas of War Crimes and called for independent investigations and review of arms sales to Israel.[79] The conflict came to an end on January 18, 2009 after first Israel and then Hamas announced unilateral ceasefires. In the days following the ceasefire, the BBC reported that, "more than 40,000 Gazans were left without running water and 4,000 homes had been ruined, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.[80]
In December 2009, Israel signaled that it was intending to build a further 700 apartments in East Jerusalem, a move criticized by the international community which views such settlements as illegal. The move was criticized by the United States as a "blow" to peaceful negotiations with the Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority has postponed future negotiations with Israel until Israel halts the construction of additional settlements on what the PA considers Palestinian territory.[81]
The newly rebuilt Hurva Synagogue in Jerusalem was dedicated on March 15, 2010. Several Palestinian leaders claimed that the rededication signaled Israel’s intent to destroy the Muslim holy places on the Temple Mount and replace it with the Third Temple. Fatah official, Khatem Abd el-Khader, called the renovation of the Hurva a "provocation", warned Israel that it was "playing with fire" and called on Palestinians to "converge on Al-Aksa to save it."[82] Fearing riots by Arab protestors, over 3,000 policemen were deployed ahead of the dedication ceremony.
Ertach blockage, south of Tul Karem, Palestinian female workers on their way for work in Israel, 03:50. The terminal opens at 4am. Top: monday 9.5.10, bottom: monday 7.4.10.
‘Azzun ‘Atma is a village enclosed between the settlements Oranit, Elkana and Sha’arei Tikva and the separation wall. The village is surrounded by a fence, traffic to and from it requires going through two checkpoints. For any practical purposes, it has become a prison compound. Any communication between the villagers and the external world requires the permission of soldiers and through checkpoints (pictured: the checkpoint on the western end of the village). Ten families that were left on the other side of the separation wall have to go through the checkpoint on their way to the village grocery store. They are restricted with a ration of goods they can buy (see here), for fear that they will use them for trade in Israel proper, west of the Green Line. No terrorist actions ever came out of this village. And all this is only in order to leave those three settlements on the western side of the wall.
Do you have any pictures of Palestinian refugee camps outside of Israel, in Syria, Jordan and Egypt? I think we can find similar conditions there.
Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades.
Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished.
If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past?
Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc.
According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers...
I'm perfectly aware of what the numbers are: Israelis have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.
However, here's the inconvenient truth that Palestinian sympathizers always ignore: the Israelis want peaceful, coexisting states and the Palestinians want Israel wiped off of the map. As I said above, there will never be peace because too many Arab/Palestinian people will not tolerate the existence of Israel. Sure, Israel has done plenty of bad things in the past to engender this hatred. No one will deny that. However, for the past twenty years (maybe more, I'd have to go back check dates), Israel has tried very hard to come to peaceful terms with the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians won't have any of it. Go look up all of the deals that Arafat turned down. Go look at the stated policy of Hamas vis a vis Israel. Hell, why do you think Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian territories now? Israel gave them up hoping that there would be peace.
If you're going to talk about body counts, then you better at least understand the history behind them.
they only did so because the whole stuff made them look bad on an international scale and USA stopped trade. Israels problem is that they are too slow in killing palestine.
If they only just wiped out palestine in one, two days and said fuck this shit, flippin the bird to everyone else and then afterwards the political party changed place with one that had a more pro palestine stance sorta "Well we didnt want to wipe them out but hey shit happens." the world would probably move on and the whole middle east shizzle would be less of a problem.
Though i am terribly israel biased.
You are terribly naïve, middle east would even be a bigger shitfest. Not to mention Israel would have lost all credibility on the international scene, probably shutting down it's economy in the process. Israel didn't wipe out Palestine because USSR would have likely nuked it's ass, leading to a 3rd WW. You have to put that in the context of the Cold War. Palestine was supported by Egypt who was supported by the East. That's why the USA bitchslapped Israel and forced Tsahal to withdraw.
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
Yeah, because Fox news is a know source of unbiased information. When you support a cause, the whole point is to avoid licking the nuts of your enemies.
Israel has no authority whatsoever in this area, I pity the Israeli civilians who died since the start of this conflict but honestly they just reap what their retarded governement and military sow.
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
Yeah, because Fox news is a know source of unbiased information. When you support a cause, the whole point is to avoid licking the nuts of your enemies.
Israel has no authority whatsoever in this area, I pity the Israeli civilians who died since the start of this conflict but honestly they just reap what their retarded governement and military sow.
I don't think it's retarded to not roll over against a terrorist threat.
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
Yeah, because Fox news is a know source of unbiased information. When you support a cause, the whole point is to avoid licking the nuts of your enemies.
Israel has no authority whatsoever in this area, I pity the Israeli civilians who died since the start of this conflict but honestly they just reap what their retarded governement and military sow.
Well since you decided to ignore the bulk of my post asking why they refused to simply drop the goods at the Ashdod port I'm gonna assume you simply don't want to even consider the other side of this conflict. This has all been just a rather sophisticated political maneuver by the Pro-Palestinian nations to spark worldwide hatred against Israel, and quite a successful one I must say. But again the actions that they decided to take reflect that this whole business had nothing to do with aid.
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
I actually thought this was sarcasm and laughed so hard. Then I realized it wasnt and now I just weep for humanity
It's so true. CNN is not at the "other end of the spectrum" as far as political "opinion" goes. They just have this WWF style act that is meant to make it seem that way. The lack of in depth reporting in the US is not even noticed anymore. People think a 3 minute news blurb is actually being up to date. You can't even begin to explain to most Americans what Palestinians are living like- they literally have no clue whats going on. And through no fault of their own- you literally have to do a home research project to find out in this country.
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
Yeah, because Fox news is a know source of unbiased information. When you support a cause, the whole point is to avoid licking the nuts of your enemies.
Israel has no authority whatsoever in this area, I pity the Israeli civilians who died since the start of this conflict but honestly they just reap what their retarded governement and military sow.
Well since you decided to ignore the bulk of my post asking why they refused to simply drop the goods at the Ashdod port I'm gonna assume you simply don't want to even consider the other side of this conflict. This has all been just a rather sophisticated political maneuver by the Pro-Palestinian nations to spark worldwide hatred against Israel, and quite a successful one I must say. But again the actions that they decided to take reflect that this whole business had nothing to do with aid.
How about you actually read the thread, you're just going over points which have been beaten to death. Your points have been answered and refuted. Try again.
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
I actually thought this was sarcasm and laughed so hard. Then I realized it wasnt and now I just weep for humanity
It's so true. CNN is not at the "other end of the spectrum" as far as political "opinion" goes. They just have this WWF style act that is meant to make it seem that way. The lack of in depth reporting in the US is not even noticed anymore. People think a 3 minute news blurb is actually being up to date. You can't even begin to explain to most Americans what Palestinians are living like- they literally have no clue whats going on. And through no fault of their own- you literally have to do a home research project to find out in this country.
100% correct. I had to travel to the area to get a clear view lol
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
Yeah, because Fox news is a know source of unbiased information. When you support a cause, the whole point is to avoid licking the nuts of your enemies.
Israel has no authority whatsoever in this area, I pity the Israeli civilians who died since the start of this conflict but honestly they just reap what their retarded governement and military sow.
Well since you decided to ignore the bulk of my post asking why they refused to simply drop the goods at the Ashdod port I'm gonna assume you simply don't want to even consider the other side of this conflict. This has all been just a rather sophisticated political maneuver by the Pro-Palestinian nations to spark worldwide hatred against Israel, and quite a successful one I must say. But again the actions that they decided to take reflect that this whole business had nothing to do with aid.
I didn't ignore the bulk of your post. These are opposants to Israel, they aren't going to just hand over the goods to Israel. That's like saying "hi Milosevic, I have a nice little shipment for your croatian friends, be sure to give it to them"
You really seem to believe that Israeli soldiers are a bunch of hippies. And for your information, there is 0 pro-palestinian nation in the western world and I doubt western citizens are influenced by Iranian or Lebanese media ...
The only nation that has sparked hatred against Israel is Israel, by thinking they could flip the bird to the entire world and do what they want on a territory where their legitimacy is, at the very least, questionnable.
Well take it from someone who lived there for 15 years.. you really don't have to believe me if you don't want. But the small area Israel/Palestine is, I happen to have a lot of friends from both sides, and no one wants this. As a matter of fact most Palestinians I know would trade anything for an Israeli passport since the government treats you far better than a terrorist organization. But with this whole conflict you are dealing with radicals on both sides, and very one-sided news reporters. Again you could say that I'm clueless and whatsoever, but it's really not what you think it is. believe me it's not a pleasant thing being afraid to ride the bus fearing that it could explode, and until the government of Palestine will be handed to a less radical organization such as Fatah I do believe that this conflict would not cease.
I'm sure that if Palestine would stop shooting rockets, sending suicide bombers, and threatening the state of Israel with statements about how they are illegitimate and do not deserve to exist Israel would gladly leave them alone.
I'm also sure that if Israel lets Palestine do w/e they want Palestine will build up more weapons and kill many more Israelis because that is their stated goal.
What happened is sad but wtf do you expect Isreal to do they just want to stop Hamas from getting weapons to do what Hamas says it wants to do destroying Isreal. Just imagine if a bum on the street came up to u and started talking about how he was going to kill you. Would you be a little paranoid if you thought he was serious? I hope you would.
The problem is the Arab world does not see this rationally, they support the terrorism against Israel because it becomes religious to them and a matter of fellow Muslims vs Zionists and Crusaders. The amount of people in the US that think the world is 6k years old and evolution is a shame is troubling but the amount of Muslims that believe Americans are the sons of Satan or that Israel should be wiped off the map is even more troubling, some of the polls taken of people in Arab countries are almost unbelievable.
Even if the Turks inspected the cargo, lots of innocuous items can be turned into deadly weapons by sheer muscle power. Rebar, pipes, even your 2x2 wood scaffolding, if what I've read on their laundry list of construction materials are correct.
On June 03 2010 14:49 OutOfOrder wrote: Just wondering, if the point of the flotilla was to provide aid, why didn't they accept the Israel's offer to ship all the goods to Gaza via Ashdod? The whole idea behind this flotilla is to push Israel's authority and the blockade, its nothing but provocation. The only fault that was made by Israel is believing the people on the flotilla to be peace activists, as Israeli commanders said they were expecting only civil resistance and instead encountered straight up violence. As you could see in the video the soldiers were rappelling down the ropes with paintball rifles, and after being lynched were forced to exert lethal force to regain control. People should watch Fox news, CNN absolutely distorted this.
Yeah, because Fox news is a know source of unbiased information. When you support a cause, the whole point is to avoid licking the nuts of your enemies.
Israel has no authority whatsoever in this area, I pity the Israeli civilians who died since the start of this conflict but honestly they just reap what their retarded governement and military sow.
I don't think it's retarded to not roll over against a terrorist threat.
Depends on what legitimacy you give to the "terrorist threat". Acts of resistance against the USSR during the invasion of Afghanistan (in the 80's) were seen as terrorist acts by the Kremlin.
To make it short, how do you think you would react if a bunch of guys just landed on your homeland and said "hi buddy, from now on this is our country, just get the fuck out".
Well it has been 60 years, and if you think that Israel is going anywhere that's a little too late. There have been many proposals over the years by a bunch of 3rd party agents to split things up, all of which were shut down by the Palestinians authorities because its not the entire country basically. And in my book any attack aimed at harming civilians is terrorism. I'd love a better definition..
On June 03 2010 15:28 OutOfOrder wrote: Well take it from someone who lived there for 15 years.. you really don't have to believe me if you don't want. But the small area Israel/Palestine is, I happen to have a lot of friends from both sides, and no one wants this. As a matter of fact most Palestinians I know would trade anything for an Israeli passport since the government treats you far better than a terrorist organization. But with this whole conflict you are dealing with radicals on both sides, and very one-sided news reporters. Again you could say that I'm clueless and whatsoever, but it's really not what you think it is. believe me it's not a pleasant thing being afraid to ride the bus fearing that it could explode, and until the government of Palestine will be handed to a less radical organization such as Fatah I do believe that this conflict would not cease.
I've never blamed this on the Israeli people in general, I'm fairly convinced that on both sides there are good dudes who just want peace and freedom and that it's mostly political organisations that fuel the conflict for their own interest.
It's just that I side much more with the Palestinians because they are the worst-off in this situation.
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