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If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades.
Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished.
If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past?
Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc.
According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers...
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On June 03 2010 07:04 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished. If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past? Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc. According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers...
History belongs to the victors...
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On June 03 2010 07:04 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished. If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past? Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc. According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers...
I'm perfectly aware of what the numbers are: Israelis have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.
However, here's the inconvenient truth that Palestinian sympathizers always ignore: the Israelis want peaceful, coexisting states and the Palestinians want Israel wiped off of the map. As I said above, there will never be peace because too many Arab/Palestinian people will not tolerate the existence of Israel. Sure, Israel has done plenty of bad things in the past to engender this hatred. No one will deny that. However, for the past twenty years (maybe more, I'd have to go back check dates), Israel has tried very hard to come to peaceful terms with the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians won't have any of it. Go look up all of the deals that Arafat turned down. Go look at the stated policy of Hamas vis a vis Israel. Hell, why do you think Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian territories now? Israel gave them up hoping that there would be peace.
If you're going to talk about body counts, then you better at least understand the history behind them.
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On June 03 2010 07:01 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:57 semantics wrote:
Maybe that's something the UN should have thought about before backing the creation of Israel :D Yes, the UN definitely screwed the pooch by creating Israel. However, that was more than 60 years ago at this point, so it's fairly irrelevant to how or whether there will be peace in the Middle East. Either the Israelis or their neighbors are going to have to be wiped out for there to be peace at this point. Given the demographics, I think that the Israelis eventually will be on the losing end.
The UN didn't "create" Israel. This is a common misconception that even many Israelis and supporters of Zionism and Israel seem to have. The UN "partition resolution" of 1947 has made no difference at all, it was non-binding and was rejected outright by one of the parties. By 1947 Israel already existed de-facto, and the legal basis for its establishment (other than the fact that, by that point it already existed so this is not necessary) was the San Remo resolution of 1920 and the Leage of Nations Mandate for Palestine, ratified in 1922, both of which were based on the Balfour Declaration and made Britain's pledges to the Zionists made in 1917 binding.
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Isreal creation wasn't recognized by enough powers though. It wasn't until US recognition that Israel really appeared on maps. A state is nothing if it's not recognized as one.
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Israel is having a ceasefire with Hamas. They are still at war. No?
Good post, by the way.
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On June 03 2010 07:04 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished. If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past? Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc. According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers...
What use is there in discussing this with you when you put daily rockets inside quote marks and question their status as acts of terror?
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Hamas is incompetent so people see their them as fighting off big bad Israel. Hamas wants Israeli's dead i remember listening to an npr interview with a Fatah rep or something and the Fatah rep tried down playing it and focused on how bad Israel has treated Palestinians.
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On June 03 2010 07:16 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 07:04 blomsterjohn wrote:If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished. If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past? Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc. According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers... I'm perfectly aware of what the numbers are: Israelis have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. However, here's the inconvenient truth that Palestinian sympathizers always ignore: the Israelis want peaceful, coexisting states and the Palestinians want Israel wiped off of the map. As I said above, there will never be peace because too many Arab/Palestinian people will not tolerate the existence of Israel. Sure, Israel has done plenty of bad things in the past to engender this hatred. No one will deny that. However, for the past twenty years (maybe more, I'd have to go back check dates), Israel has tried very hard to come to peaceful terms with the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians won't have any of it. Go look up all of the deals that Arafat turned down. Go look at the stated policy of Hamas vis a vis Israel. Hell, why do you think Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian territories now? Israel gave them up hoping that there would be peace.If you're going to talk about body counts, then you better at least understand the history behind them.
they only did so because the whole stuff made them look bad on an international scale and USA stopped trade. Israels problem is that they are too slow in killing palestine.
If they only just wiped out palestine in one, two days and said fuck this shit, flippin the bird to everyone else and then afterwards the political party changed place with one that had a more pro palestine stance sorta "Well we didnt want to wipe them out but hey shit happens." the world would probably move on and the whole middle east shizzle would be less of a problem.
Though i am terribly israel biased.
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+1 to EtherealDeath's post on the previous page, it raises a number of good points which I wasn't aware of.
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I find it somewhat amusing that the UN is throwing a hissy-fit about one boat, meanwhile we had genocides in Darfur, Bosnia, Rwanda and Iraq in which the UN did absolutely nothing to stop. I find the UN to be really one big joke, quite frankly. Any international government that allows genocide to occur without intervening has lost its right to govern.
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On June 03 2010 10:58 Fraud wrote:
I find it somewhat amusing that the UN is throwing a hissy-fit about one boat, meanwhile we had genocides in Darfur, Bosnia, Rwanda and Iraq in which the UN did absolutely nothing to stop. I find the UN to be really one big joke, quite frankly. Any international government that allows genocide to occur without intervening has lost its right to govern.
It doesn't govern much of anything, and any power that it does have lies nearly entirely with its members and not with itself.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 03 2010 07:16 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 07:04 blomsterjohn wrote:If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished. If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past? Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc. According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers... I'm perfectly aware of what the numbers are: Israelis have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. However, here's the inconvenient truth that Palestinian sympathizers always ignore: the Israelis want peaceful, coexisting states and the Palestinians want Israel wiped off of the map. Neither of these statements have any merit. Both sets of populaces have come to agreement on some type of co-existence, politicians and land settlement aren't there yet.
As I said above, there will never be peace because too many Arab/Palestinian people will not tolerate the existence of Israel. This line right here shows me you're uneducated on the issue and have just bought the line fed by mainstream American media, which includes both 'conservative' and 'liberal' sources. It's like the "ancient hatreds" crap they pulled during the Bosnian war. However, for the past twenty years (maybe more, I'd have to go back check dates), Israel has tried very hard to come to peaceful terms with the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians won't have any of it. Go look up all of the deals that Arafat turned down. Go look at the stated policy of Hamas vis a vis Israel. Hell, why do you think Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian territories now? Israel gave them up hoping that there would be peace.
If you're going to talk about body counts, then you better at least understand the history behind them. The terms of the deals were all bad. That's pretty simple to understand. It's the equivalent to the US offering Indian reservations, except this has happened within the past 50 years. Of course they didn't want to accept the terms. Why don't you tell us why those are Palestinian territories? Why don't you tell us why settlers continue to move deeper into the West Bank?
The two state solution will be difficult to achieve, but it's certainly not an impossibility like people here for some reason believe. Things like "they want to kill us all" are cheap political lines to garner thoughtless, uncritical support, like the propaganda between the US and USSR during the Cold War. Of course none of it is true, but the line is put out there because enough people will believe it, and will therefore we need them (being the person who said it) to keep us save from those other people. Palestinians and Israelis co-exist on a daily basis, you've just got two aggressive, conservative (some would say reactionary or fundamentalist-lite) governments, one of which happens to be nearly failed, and therefore nothing can get done.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 03 2010 06:46 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:39 xDaunt wrote:On June 03 2010 04:50 purgerinho wrote:
gaza shouldn't be blocked... israel made ghetto from it and world should react and punish israel already..
i mean, it's not even their land, it is palestinan land.. they should be grateful coz they have land for free but nooo.. why wouldn't we kill ppl for 60 yrs just coz they don't want to abandon their own homes..
countries should gather now and go all togehter with aid.. fascism should be stopped.. yes, it is fascism If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. The fundamental problem with regards to peace between Israel and the Middle East is that there are too many people and groups that will accept nothing less than the utter destruction of Israel. There is no treaty that can be written or made that will satisfy those people unless it wipes Israel off of the map. Right. According to polls 80% of Arabs, including "Palestinians" and those in the surrounding countries, would not permanently accept the existence of Israel under any circumstances.
According to polls, 90% of TeamLiquidians think you're a racist, pro-eugenics scumbag.
Neither of us have sources to back up our numbers, but I'm far more confident in mine than yours.
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On June 03 2010 07:16 xDaunt wrote:
However, here's the inconvenient truth that Palestinian sympathizers always ignore: the Israelis want peaceful, coexisting states
This is total rubbish. There are plenty of right-wing Israelis who want a 'greater Israel'- that means they want to take back all of the West Bank which is why they keep pushing to build more and more settlements there. The truth is there are reasonable people on both sides and there are fundamentalists on both sides.
If Israeli right-wingers hadn't assassinated Yitzhak Rabin there might very well have been peaceful, coexisting states by now.
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On June 03 2010 11:11 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:46 HnR)hT wrote:On June 03 2010 06:39 xDaunt wrote:On June 03 2010 04:50 purgerinho wrote:
gaza shouldn't be blocked... israel made ghetto from it and world should react and punish israel already..
i mean, it's not even their land, it is palestinan land.. they should be grateful coz they have land for free but nooo.. why wouldn't we kill ppl for 60 yrs just coz they don't want to abandon their own homes..
countries should gather now and go all togehter with aid.. fascism should be stopped.. yes, it is fascism If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. The fundamental problem with regards to peace between Israel and the Middle East is that there are too many people and groups that will accept nothing less than the utter destruction of Israel. There is no treaty that can be written or made that will satisfy those people unless it wipes Israel off of the map. Right. According to polls 80% of Arabs, including "Palestinians" and those in the surrounding countries, would not permanently accept the existence of Israel under any circumstances. According to polls, 90% of TeamLiquidians think you're a racist, pro-eugenics scumbag. Neither of us have sources to back up our numbers, but I'm far more confident in mine than yours.
I guess I'm in the 10% because I have no idea where you're coming from. How are facts racist?
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United States22883 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:22 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 11:11 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2010 06:46 HnR)hT wrote:On June 03 2010 06:39 xDaunt wrote:On June 03 2010 04:50 purgerinho wrote:
gaza shouldn't be blocked... israel made ghetto from it and world should react and punish israel already..
i mean, it's not even their land, it is palestinan land.. they should be grateful coz they have land for free but nooo.. why wouldn't we kill ppl for 60 yrs just coz they don't want to abandon their own homes..
countries should gather now and go all togehter with aid.. fascism should be stopped.. yes, it is fascism If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. The fundamental problem with regards to peace between Israel and the Middle East is that there are too many people and groups that will accept nothing less than the utter destruction of Israel. There is no treaty that can be written or made that will satisfy those people unless it wipes Israel off of the map. Right. According to polls 80% of Arabs, including "Palestinians" and those in the surrounding countries, would not permanently accept the existence of Israel under any circumstances. According to polls, 90% of TeamLiquidians think you're a racist, pro-eugenics scumbag. Neither of us have sources to back up our numbers, but I'm far more confident in mine than yours. I guess I'm in the 10% because I have no idea where you're coming from. How are facts racist? 1. His facts are wrong. There's a sea of miscommunication by which Americans receive information about the Middle East. Stuff like Ahmadinejad saying Iran wants to erase Israel from the map is based on poor translation and an international game of telephone. Stuff said by overzealous, conservative religious leaders is just that. The same way Americans don't immediately start believing Pat Robertson when he says "God caused ________ because of the Gays," nor do all Muslims or middle easterners jump at the word of every imam or mullah.
2. He writes crap like this.
On September 15 2008 02:49 HnR)hT wrote:
The problem is, it is impossible to make a case for equality (such as racial equality) on purely scientific grounds. From a biological perspective, it can be blindingly obvious when one man is vastly superior to another. If you look at the IQ debates, the disparities in criminality among races (even when controlling for socioeconomic status), the fact that genetically distinct groups of people specialize in different sports at the highest levels, and so on, you will see that those who argue for empirical inequality among the races simply point to facts while those who argue for equality do nothing but come up with elaborate theories to explain away those facts. Which side is the more scientific here? What annoys me is the leftists who embrace evolution, but avoid having to face the (at least seeming) unpleasant consequences of the sociobiologist worldview.
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On June 03 2010 07:16 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 07:04 blomsterjohn wrote:If Bosnians shelled Croatian cities daily with rockets, I think you might feel a little bit different about the idea of blockades. Wow, this is so misleading im really astonished. If you see these socalled "daily rockets" as terrorism, what then has Israel done consistently in the past? Phosphorus, UN school, Ambulances, Human-shields, settlements, UN observers, the unleeching of christian fundamentalists on refugee camps, checkpoints etc etc etc etc etc. According to your standards then, Israel would be the most looney terroriststate ever. Proportions do matter you know, look up them numbers... I'm perfectly aware of what the numbers are: Israelis have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis. However, here's the inconvenient truth that Palestinian sympathizers always ignore: the Israelis want peaceful, coexisting states and the Palestinians want Israel wiped off of the map. As I said above, there will never be peace because too many Arab/Palestinian people will not tolerate the existence of Israel. Sure, Israel has done plenty of bad things in the past to engender this hatred. No one will deny that. However, for the past twenty years (maybe more, I'd have to go back check dates), Israel has tried very hard to come to peaceful terms with the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians won't have any of it. Go look up all of the deals that Arafat turned down. Go look at the stated policy of Hamas vis a vis Israel. Hell, why do you think Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian territories now? Israel gave them up hoping that there would be peace.If you're going to talk about body counts, then you better at least understand the history behind them.
You're terrible.
Every ten years, the size of palestine on the map gets smaller. You really think that's their fault?
70 years ago there was no Israel. It was palestine. Israel's existance is a remnant of british colonialism and the only reason it's still around is because the people in control of western nations want it to be there. Do you really think the dirty, poor, and sick palestinians who no longer have a home are really opposed to reasonable peace?
Israel's existance is illegal. The only travesty for Israel is that it will be the children of the original zionists that pay for the crimes that have been committed, and not the original zionists themselves.
More towards your point, the only peace plans the palestinians have turned down are complete mockeries of a legitimate agreement. The majority of the international community knows that israel is the problem. Unfortunately, that majority are not capable of standing up to the USA, who conveniantly vetoe almost every UN movement against Israel when almost everyone else supports it.
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Here's a question:
Why should Israel give back ANY territory it conquered in the 6 day war? I mean, why doesn't the United States just give back California and Texas? I mean, Mexicans are poor too!
Palestinian sympathizers want to help the population (and believe me, Israel wants nothing else but peace with them) but there should always be a good justification for any ground that a country is willing to give up.
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EPT
