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On July 19 2013 05:25 KwarK wrote:
You can do a magic trick with it.
Get them to pledge allegiance to the flag.
Say the flag represents America and American values.
Put the American dream and (economic) FREEDOM on there.
Suddenly you have all the little children pledging not to challenge the political and economic system that transfers the fruits of their labours upwards to an oligarchic clique and being brainwashed (seriously, having an authority figure tell children to chant together about the virtues of something they have no knowledge of and pledge loyalty to it is brainwashing) into thinking that a peaceful political opinion is not okay.
Just an example but the point is that the pledge is to a symbol that you cannot control and can be used against their interests. Liberty means no allegiance to anyone.
As a whole, the only reason I'm not throwing a fit over the pledge is because of how loosely it's enforced. It's not like kids are being whipped left and right for not taking it seriously. It has nationalist undertones, but those are somewhat benign at this point.
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People in this thread need to educate themselves on the -isms. Wikipedia is as decent a source of any for this.
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On July 19 2013 05:25 KwarK wrote:
You can do a magic trick with it.
Get them to pledge allegiance to the flag.
Say the flag represents America and American values.
Put the American dream and (economic) FREEDOM on there.
Suddenly you have all the little children pledging not to challenge the political and economic system that transfers the fruits of their labours upwards to an oligarchic clique and being brainwashed (seriously, having an authority figure tell children to chant together about the virtues of something they have no knowledge of and pledge loyalty to it is brainwashing) into thinking that a peaceful political opinion is not okay.
Just an example but the point is that the pledge is to a symbol that you cannot control and can be used against their interests. Liberty means no allegiance to anyone.
Nowhere in the pledge does it say that we shouldn't challenge the political or economic system. Nowhere is that implied. In fact, the opposite is said directly:
"with liberty and justice for all"
And no, having children pledge allegiance to the country that gave them everything they have is not brainwashing. It is indoctrination, and no, indoctrination is not necessarily bad. The nation and society have a vested interest in fostering patriotism and respect for the country and for the liberties it grants. At no point does that suggest that those children should never seek to improve their situation, or that they cannot partake in their right to express their own political beliefs. In fact, it suggests that opposite: that by pledging ourselves to the Republic and to the flag, and to those things it represents (liberty and justice) we have pledged ourselves to expressing our opinion on how justice and liberty can best be attained for all people. Your equivocation between that concept and the fucking Hitler Oath is so completely absurd that it borders on being outright offensive.
Liberty does not mean no allegiance to anyone (or anything as the pledge offers no person for allegiance to be pledged to). Such a concept is absurd. If one is to be liberated, if one is to be free, one must have allegiance to certain concepts and modes of behavior or that liberty is meaningless. We are perfectly free to choose what "liberty and justice" mean to us, and we are perfectly free to choose how those things should be realized. Freedom without responsibility is anarchy. It is meaningless and valueless. Duty does not preclude liberty.
Seriously though, it would be laughable how absurd you are being if it wasn't so fascinating to impressionable people that don't know any better and can't see the clear difference between choosing to pledge yourself to your nation, and being forced to pledge yourself to a supreme leader.
edit: I also find it funny that people from the country with state media are talking to anyone about fascism.
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I think the point is that the symbolism of the Pledge seems more coherent with fascism than with capitalism.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg)
At least we don't use the Roman salute any more!
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I can't think of a country where people are more suspicious of government than they are in the US. Notwithstanding whatever indoctrination kids may get in school.
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United States42609 Posts
A child taking the pledge in school when everyone else is and it's on the loudspeaker from authority figures is not choosing to give his allegiance to America after careful consideration of the options. It is brainwashing, it is a pledge to serve something outside his control and not necessarily in his interests.
If an adult wants to give up his free will and choose to serve an ideal then that's one thing and as long as that ideal is peaceful then whatever. But indoctrinating children to serve a symbol that is at the mercy of forces outside their control is another. Your system breeds this bizarre respect for flags and then you do stuff like drape flags over the coffins of the war dead, a decision that binds two very different concepts together. The American flag and its associations are not neutral and they are not within your control, indoctrinating children with obedience to it isn't in your interest, the interest of the nation in the long term, the interest of liberty and certainly not in their interest.
They should just run it as a class for ten year olds (they ought to be old enough to get it). Have the teacher tell them that now they're ten they're old enough to take on their responsibilities as good Americans and that every morning from now on they have to chant something along with the loudspeaker. Open with pledging allegiance to the United States and then every week that goes by without children challenging it and going "wait, why are we pledging allegiance?" you make it slightly dumber. First play up the hypocrisy, add "The United States guarantees liberty and ensures we never again owe anyone allegiance like we did under the British", then slowly add more things they have to pledge to do and sillier things they pledge allegiance to until eventually everyone in the class has realised that just because it's on the loudspeaker and everyone else is chanting doesn't mean you actually have to do it. Grade according to how long it takes kids to stop chanting. That'd actually give kids a lesson in liberty.
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On July 19 2013 05:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:13 Eschaton wrote:On July 19 2013 04:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Yeah that just screams fascism... As it stands now, the pledge doesn't do so well up against my fascism test: venerates the state: CHECK devotion to a leader: CHECK militarism: NOPE Venerate: Regard with great respect; revere. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:01 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote:On July 19 2013 02:50 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 02:45 cLutZ wrote:On July 19 2013 01:19 Shiori wrote:
Post-secondary education (be it college, community college, or vocational training) should be just subsidized, wholly or partially, for the same reasons that public education is subsidized. Education is, simply, the cornerstone of a responsible and competent citizenry. There is absolutely no reason not to make it as accessible as possible. Obviously, if this were done, one would have to substantially tighten the restrictions on entrance to various post-secondary institutions, in order to prevent people with no aptitude/ability wasting resources i.e. we don't need people going into English literature if they can't piece together a sentence, and nor do we need someone with poor fine motor skills training to be a surgeon or fine woodworker. Only true because or primary and secondary education systems are so inefficient and dont teach any appreciable skills. The teach obedience, repetition, and response to a bell. Highschool was originally designed with the assumption that you'd go work in a factory. You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. But if you walk by a classroom while elementary school students are saying it, it's like...looking into a North Korean classroom. Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you don't know anything about North Korea... at all.
Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country...
You're putting words in my keyboard here. Venerate / despise are fairly distant along the spectrum. If you actually want to discuss whether the state should be "revered", as you say, that's another discussion...
Devotion to a leader? Which leader?
That mythical one in the sky that hands down morals and cultural values, and is strongly tied to the national identity of the WASP. You should know that the addendum was added to the pledge due to fears of communism in order to solidify loyalty.
I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it.
It's a nice discussion technique to obliquely mention that you don't think others know what they're talking about, and leave it at that. Kudos.
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On July 19 2013 05:52 Eschaton wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:13 Eschaton wrote:On July 19 2013 04:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Yeah that just screams fascism... As it stands now, the pledge doesn't do so well up against my fascism test: venerates the state: CHECK devotion to a leader: CHECK militarism: NOPE Venerate: Regard with great respect; revere. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. On July 19 2013 05:01 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote:On July 19 2013 02:50 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 02:45 cLutZ wrote:On July 19 2013 01:19 Shiori wrote:
Post-secondary education (be it college, community college, or vocational training) should be just subsidized, wholly or partially, for the same reasons that public education is subsidized. Education is, simply, the cornerstone of a responsible and competent citizenry. There is absolutely no reason not to make it as accessible as possible. Obviously, if this were done, one would have to substantially tighten the restrictions on entrance to various post-secondary institutions, in order to prevent people with no aptitude/ability wasting resources i.e. we don't need people going into English literature if they can't piece together a sentence, and nor do we need someone with poor fine motor skills training to be a surgeon or fine woodworker. Only true because or primary and secondary education systems are so inefficient and dont teach any appreciable skills. The teach obedience, repetition, and response to a bell. Highschool was originally designed with the assumption that you'd go work in a factory. You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. But if you walk by a classroom while elementary school students are saying it, it's like...looking into a North Korean classroom. Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you don't know anything about North Korea... at all. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... You're putting words in my keyboard here. Venerate / despise are fairly distant along the spectrum. If you actually want to discuss whether the state should be "revered", as you say, that's another discussion... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? That mythical one in the sky that hands down morals and cultural values, and is strongly tied to the national identity of the WASP. You should know that the addendum was added to the pledge due to fears of communism in order to solidify loyalty. I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. It's a nice discussion technique to obliquely mention that you don't think others know what they're talking about, and leave it at that. Kudos.
There is nothing wrong with revering the nation of your birth and the ideals it stands for. If those ideals are abhorrent, and the nation itself corrupt, fine. But I'm not a subjectivist so I don't buy into the equivocation bullshit that leads to absolutist nonsense like: "pledges are inherently fascist".
God is not a political leader.
If I said: "You have no idea how fascist nationalized health-care systems are. The NAZIs had one, so it's fascist." I think most people in here would find that to be a statement revealing a severe lack of understanding concerning what fascism is.
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United States42609 Posts
You honestly see no difference between a deliberate policy of mass indoctrination of the youth with obedience to the system and a healthcare system? You think that's a totally reasonable comparison to make? Holy shit that pledge works well.
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On July 19 2013 05:47 KwarK wrote:
A child taking the pledge in school when everyone else is and it's on the loudspeaker from authority figures is not choosing to give his allegiance to America after careful consideration of the options. It is brainwashing, it is a pledge to serve something outside his control and not necessarily in his interests.
If an adult wants to give up his free will and choose to serve an ideal then that's one thing and as long as that ideal is peaceful then whatever. But indoctrinating children to serve a symbol that is at the mercy of forces outside their control is another. Your system breeds this bizarre respect for flags and then you do stuff like drape flags over the coffins of the war dead, a decision that binds two very different concepts together. The American flag and its associations are not neutral and they are not within your control, indoctrinating children with obedience to it isn't in your interest, the interest of the nation in the long term, the interest of liberty and certainly not in their interest.
They should just run it as a class for ten year olds (they ought to be old enough to get it). Have the teacher tell them that now they're ten they're old enough to take on their responsibilities as good Americans and that every morning from now on they have to chant something along with the loudspeaker. Open with pledging allegiance to the United States and then every week that goes by without children challenging it and going "wait, why are we pledging allegiance?" you make it slightly dumber. First play up the hypocrisy, add "The United States guarantees liberty and ensures we never again owe anyone allegiance like we did under the British", then slowly add more things they have to pledge to do and sillier things they pledge allegiance to until eventually everyone in the class has realised that just because it's on the loudspeaker and everyone else is chanting doesn't mean you actually have to do it. Grade according to how long it takes kids to stop chanting. That'd actually give kids a lesson in liberty.
The pledge is pretty innocent. We haven't had the same issues with nationalism as Europe so we don't fear it so much. We have had problems with groups wanting out of the union, however, so instilling people with the idea that you can't do that is a cultural tradition.
Curious, in what European country are you legally allowed to rebel against your government? My understanding is none. So, the typical European hypocrisy applies here: in the US we do things openly, in Europe the same thing applies but it's hidden in the shadows.
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On July 19 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:
You honestly see no difference between a deliberate policy of mass indoctrination of the youth with obedience to the system and a healthcare system? You think that's a totally reasonable comparison to make? Holy shit that pledge works well.
You haven't established how the pledge, in any way, shape, or form, can be taken to mean: "you must be obedient to the system".
And no, there is nothing wrong with indoctrinating children into being obedient to the principles of liberty and justice.
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United States42609 Posts
Armed rebellion isn't allowed for obvious (you can't murder people) reasons but we have a large secessionist party in Scotland who are actually being allowed a referendum on leaving the United Kingdom next year. There is a large scale movement which plans to undermine the Westminster government, to create and empower a rival authority and ultimately to break away from the nation and because they're peaceful we give no shits and will let them vote on it. And that is how it's done.
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I have a feeling people who haven't been in a US public school don't quite understand the attitude towards the pledge.
It's not indoctrinating the youth and turning us little slaves into our economic and political system. It's essentially turned into a benign and antiquated century+ old tradition, that, like so many other traditions, has completely lost it's meaning or power. I don't remember a single student ever reciting it or caring about it, at least during the years in which my brain was cognitive. The only people who say it are probably the very young... people who can't even comprehend what the hell they are saying to begin with. None of it sticks. It does not mold us into little sheep. I'd personally be for getting rid of it, but in the end it's quite simply not worth caring about.
The "Under God" part is defintiely the dumbest part, but even that is just a well known antiquated throw back from the Cold War which really is more interesting historically than it is dangerous, at least in my mind.
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On July 19 2013 06:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:52 Eschaton wrote:On July 19 2013 05:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:13 Eschaton wrote:On July 19 2013 04:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Yeah that just screams fascism... As it stands now, the pledge doesn't do so well up against my fascism test: venerates the state: CHECK devotion to a leader: CHECK militarism: NOPE Venerate: Regard with great respect; revere. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. On July 19 2013 05:01 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote:On July 19 2013 02:50 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 02:45 cLutZ wrote:On July 19 2013 01:19 Shiori wrote:
Post-secondary education (be it college, community college, or vocational training) should be just subsidized, wholly or partially, for the same reasons that public education is subsidized. Education is, simply, the cornerstone of a responsible and competent citizenry. There is absolutely no reason not to make it as accessible as possible. Obviously, if this were done, one would have to substantially tighten the restrictions on entrance to various post-secondary institutions, in order to prevent people with no aptitude/ability wasting resources i.e. we don't need people going into English literature if they can't piece together a sentence, and nor do we need someone with poor fine motor skills training to be a surgeon or fine woodworker. Only true because or primary and secondary education systems are so inefficient and dont teach any appreciable skills. The teach obedience, repetition, and response to a bell. Highschool was originally designed with the assumption that you'd go work in a factory. You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. But if you walk by a classroom while elementary school students are saying it, it's like...looking into a North Korean classroom. Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you don't know anything about North Korea... at all. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... You're putting words in my keyboard here. Venerate / despise are fairly distant along the spectrum. If you actually want to discuss whether the state should be "revered", as you say, that's another discussion... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? That mythical one in the sky that hands down morals and cultural values, and is strongly tied to the national identity of the WASP. You should know that the addendum was added to the pledge due to fears of communism in order to solidify loyalty. I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. It's a nice discussion technique to obliquely mention that you don't think others know what they're talking about, and leave it at that. Kudos. There is nothing wrong with revering the nation of your birth and the ideals it stands for. If those ideals are abhorrent, and the nation itself corrupt, fine. But I'm not a subjectivist so I don't buy into the equivocation bullshit that leads to absolutist nonsense like: "pledges are inherently fascist". God is not a political leader. If I said: "You have no idea how fascist nationalized health-care systems are. The NAZIs had one, so it's fascist." I think most people in here would find that to be a statement revealing a severe lack of understanding concerning what fascism is.
Trying to make people patriotic by having them say words is unequivocally immoral and wrong. Blind patriotism is always bad, no matter how awesome your nation actually is. There is no "best nation in the world," because every nation is imperfect, and because some nations are really good at certain things and really bad at others. Patriotism, in its best form, should be attachment to certain things in your country, on the basis of those things actually being good rather than you just being born there. Furthermore, your country is not exceptional, which means that you should be proud of any country adopting something that is a good value, rather than acting like any particular country deserves special ownership of some principle. While many, many nations in the world have a significant nationalist base, right now American exceptionalism seems to be one of the few remaining cases in the West of patriotism for the sake of patriotism.
Trying to breed patriotism is never justified, unless breeding it means that you just try to make your country more awesome so that more people will like it. Having your kids swear allegiance to anyone or anything is immoral is fuck, since an 8 year-old doesn't even know what allegiance is, and nor can someone be made to freely swear allegiance to anything.
The Pledge of Allegiance is actually pretty decent as pledges go, minus the "under God" bit, since that has nothing to do with the nation itself and because it contextualizes the pledge as being like swearing to a culture rather than to the ideals of freedom and so on.
And no, there is nothing wrong with indoctrinating children into being obedient to the principles of liberty and justice.
Um, yes there is. I'm not sure why you think telling children that they should never think critically about what liberty or justice are but rather exemplify obedience to whatever liberty of justice is defined to be by whomever is in a position to define it, which evidently isn't any of the children (since apparently we're going to indoctrinate rather than educate).
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On July 19 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:
Armed rebellion isn't allowed for obvious (you can't murder people) reasons but we have a large secessionist party in Scotland who are actually being allowed a referendum on leaving the United Kingdom next year. There is a large scale movement which plans to undermine the Westminster government, to create and empower a rival authority and ultimately to break away from the nation and because they're peaceful we give no shits and will let them vote on it. And that is how it's done.
You can't secede in the US. That was settled in our civil war. Once in, there's no out. The union is indivisible.
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On July 19 2013 06:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:
Armed rebellion isn't allowed for obvious (you can't murder people) reasons but we have a large secessionist party in Scotland who are actually being allowed a referendum on leaving the United Kingdom next year. There is a large scale movement which plans to undermine the Westminster government, to create and empower a rival authority and ultimately to break away from the nation and because they're peaceful we give no shits and will let them vote on it. And that is how it's done. You can't secede in the US. That was settled in our civil war. Once in, there's no out. The union is indivisible.
France is indivisible, but once Algeria was part of France you know...
Edit : of course freely becoming part of the US isn't the same as France conquering Algeria, still I trhink it's something to consider.
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United States42609 Posts
On July 19 2013 06:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:
Armed rebellion isn't allowed for obvious (you can't murder people) reasons but we have a large secessionist party in Scotland who are actually being allowed a referendum on leaving the United Kingdom next year. There is a large scale movement which plans to undermine the Westminster government, to create and empower a rival authority and ultimately to break away from the nation and because they're peaceful we give no shits and will let them vote on it. And that is how it's done. You can't secede in the US. That was settled in our civil war. Once in, there's no out. The union is indivisible.
Was just responding to your "in what European country can you actively oppose the gov" with a relevant example. In the UK you can and they have been for years with democratic devolution and a referendum on independence coming. That's how liberty works.
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On July 19 2013 06:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 06:04 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:52 Eschaton wrote:On July 19 2013 05:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:13 Eschaton wrote:On July 19 2013 04:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Yeah that just screams fascism... As it stands now, the pledge doesn't do so well up against my fascism test: venerates the state: CHECK devotion to a leader: CHECK militarism: NOPE Venerate: Regard with great respect; revere. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. On July 19 2013 05:01 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote:On July 19 2013 02:50 Klondikebar wrote:On July 19 2013 02:45 cLutZ wrote:On July 19 2013 01:19 Shiori wrote:
Post-secondary education (be it college, community college, or vocational training) should be just subsidized, wholly or partially, for the same reasons that public education is subsidized. Education is, simply, the cornerstone of a responsible and competent citizenry. There is absolutely no reason not to make it as accessible as possible. Obviously, if this were done, one would have to substantially tighten the restrictions on entrance to various post-secondary institutions, in order to prevent people with no aptitude/ability wasting resources i.e. we don't need people going into English literature if they can't piece together a sentence, and nor do we need someone with poor fine motor skills training to be a surgeon or fine woodworker. Only true because or primary and secondary education systems are so inefficient and dont teach any appreciable skills. The teach obedience, repetition, and response to a bell. Highschool was originally designed with the assumption that you'd go work in a factory. You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. But if you walk by a classroom while elementary school students are saying it, it's like...looking into a North Korean classroom. Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you don't know anything about North Korea... at all. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... You're putting words in my keyboard here. Venerate / despise are fairly distant along the spectrum. If you actually want to discuss whether the state should be "revered", as you say, that's another discussion... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? That mythical one in the sky that hands down morals and cultural values, and is strongly tied to the national identity of the WASP. You should know that the addendum was added to the pledge due to fears of communism in order to solidify loyalty. I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. It's a nice discussion technique to obliquely mention that you don't think others know what they're talking about, and leave it at that. Kudos. There is nothing wrong with revering the nation of your birth and the ideals it stands for. If those ideals are abhorrent, and the nation itself corrupt, fine. But I'm not a subjectivist so I don't buy into the equivocation bullshit that leads to absolutist nonsense like: "pledges are inherently fascist". God is not a political leader. If I said: "You have no idea how fascist nationalized health-care systems are. The NAZIs had one, so it's fascist." I think most people in here would find that to be a statement revealing a severe lack of understanding concerning what fascism is. Show nested quote +And no, there is nothing wrong with indoctrinating children into being obedient to the principles of liberty and justice. Um, yes there is. I'm not sure why you think telling children that they should never think critically about what liberty or justice are but rather exemplify obedience to whatever liberty of justice is defined to be by whomever is in a position to define it, which evidently isn't any of the children (since apparently we're going to indoctrinate rather than educate).
In no way did I suggest that children should not think critically about what liberty and justice are. And no, I'm sorry, liberty and justice are words with meaning, and like I said, I don't buy into this subjective "ideals mean whatever I want them to" crap. Liberty and justice have meaning, are ideals that are worth struggling for, and indoctrinating into children a respect for those ideals is both a moral and civic duty.
Education is indoctrination.
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On July 19 2013 06:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:
You honestly see no difference between a deliberate policy of mass indoctrination of the youth with obedience to the system and a healthcare system? You think that's a totally reasonable comparison to make? Holy shit that pledge works well. You haven't established how the pledge, in any way, shape, or form, can be taken to mean: "you must be obedient to the system". And no, there is nothing wrong with indoctrinating children into being obedient to the principles of liberty and justice.
What about "compulsory unification of opinion violates the first amendment" don't you get?
Here is the actual text from the US Supreme Court decision in 1943 finding against a law making recitation of the Pledge compulsory:
"Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.
It seems trite but necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the American concept of the state or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent."
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On July 19 2013 06:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 06:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On July 19 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:
Armed rebellion isn't allowed for obvious (you can't murder people) reasons but we have a large secessionist party in Scotland who are actually being allowed a referendum on leaving the United Kingdom next year. There is a large scale movement which plans to undermine the Westminster government, to create and empower a rival authority and ultimately to break away from the nation and because they're peaceful we give no shits and will let them vote on it. And that is how it's done. You can't secede in the US. That was settled in our civil war. Once in, there's no out. The union is indivisible. Was just responding to your "in what European country can you actively oppose the gov" with a relevant example. In the UK you can and they have been for years with democratic devolution and a referendum on independence coming. That's how liberty works.
Yeah, I know what you were saying and I was responding to it. We do things different in the US. Don't assume that different is worse, just because your own nationalism demands it.
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