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On January 22 2013 06:20 RiFT_ wrote:
No patch today, but we are hard at work on Patch 2 for later this week. Changes coming for the Thor, Diamondback, Corruptor, Tempest, Immortal, and Battlecruiser.
Patch 2 is seeking to make sure all units are interesting and useful and Patch 3 will be seeking to address macro mechanics, economy, and defender's advantage.
nice 
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On January 22 2013 06:14 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
@gCgCrypto: Nope, its part of the Corruptor redesign. And worry not, FRB will get looked at, but not before we do some GM level testing. Which will be happening a lot sooner than initially anticipated! Design Patch 3 will be looking at Macro Mechanics, and after that the economy. Unless we get some serious mathematical help, we will have to take care, lest we break everything. If you know anyone, let us know!
I don't think so? o.O Yesterday we were finalizing the Thor changes and getting them into the editor. Today I will put up our finalized patch notes for y'all.
Not really sure what the second part is referring to (if it refers to me still)
To the mathematical problem:
If you can put it into a mathematical form i know someone who could and would do it (actualy 3 of those)
However all of them are not related to SC2 at all (one played some BW with me)
So if you could put the mathematical problem into a form that a "outsider" understands i´m pretty sure i would be able to help out.
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FRB will get looked at
FRB didn't work: ask Barrin. You have to change the worker AI, which you could get some help with if you asked MaverCK (the guy who runs the SC2:BW project).
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Changing Worker AI is probably not on the table. I am nearly 100% certain Blizzard will never implement that. I can check with my connections to make sure though Oosh.
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On January 22 2013 09:05 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Changing Worker AI is probably not on the table. I am nearly 100% certain Blizzard will never implement that. I can check with my connections to make sure though Oosh.
well, they changed the worker ai in hots to be even more efficient for mining minerals. It at least shows altering the AI is on the table.
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Whew, I just finished recording my audio part for the next design patch vid. Wonderful!
Also, I have to say I'm so thrilled with more and more community members pitching in. I'm heading to the Mold Treatment Centers of America (Atlanta, Georgia) for a week or so, maybe to finally get a cure! Normally I handle video production duties, but Jakub Koziol recently joined our team, and he's taking over for at least this patch. Just in time, too!
So it's in big part thanks to him stepping up that we get to keep this ball rolling while I receive treatment. And of course, the hard work of the regular team!
Great work, guys.
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What do you mean by FRB did not work? What are you expecting from implementing FRB?
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Back to actual design / balance:
I want to shift some attention on the queen, as I think it a strong aspect to why zergs are so comfortable turtling to 3-4 base hive in the current meta of SC2 WoL and Hots. The fact that it is the easiest, safest, and most boring way to play and watch I think is a problem.
I believe the queen should finally be allowed to revert back to its original 3 range vs ground.
Balance Reasoning:
+ Show Spoiler +Blizzard buffed the queen in order to make it easier for zergs to defend them selves from aggression. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you side with blizzard) , the queen buffed made it so that all forms of early aggression (specifically TvZ) were essentially worthless. 3-5 queens could really handle anything a Terran threw at it, and forced the match-up into macro games, where zerg naturally had an advantage over Terran. Looking back pre-queen buff: The standard Terran opening was hellion expand. The hellions came out early enough to Force some form of reaction, slowing down droning. The standard response was a spine crawler, a wall, and a queen at the front, or early zergling speed and or roaches. Getting a 3rd pre 5 minutes was hard and dangerous, as was droning up to 70 drones before making a single attacking unit. What did this produce? Early and Mid Games were much more volatile, and elongated. Nowadays, the early game is to about 5 mins, mid up to around 13, and zergs are easily getting hive tech by roughly 14 - 15 minutes. Now, I don't believe I am the only one who thinks that the 2011 year of starcraft (pre queen buff there was more ling bane muta vs marine tank medi) was much more interesting than the current meta. A lot more interesting tactics involved involving what you did with the units you had, as opposed to 'just' having the right composition and being moderately good at hitting the F key or whatever key it is for fungal. Post queen range buff: The IceFisher (popularized by Spanishiwa if I recall correctly) became not just standard, but the easiest way to secure yourself without sacrificing any economy, since queens add to, not detract from economy. It is essentially 4 queen 3rd base from zerg, and expo hellion banshee expo from Terran. Or fast 3 base macro if your a Bomber clone. Zergs can purely use 3-5 queens to defend themselves from everything in the early to early mid, then use infestors to defend everything from mid to late game, and flip between broodlords and ultralisks in hive to kill. Infestor Tangent: + Show Spoiler +The buff to infestors caused an serious upset to PvZ, since stalker collosus was THE comp. of choice, but fungal's new bonus to armored meant everything died. However, TvZ still remained very exciting despite the infestor changes because there were many options a Terran could do early and early mid that would force the zerg to react in the proper manner. Since zerg was supposed to be the 'reactionary race,' this did not seem to be a bad thing. The buff to the DPS of fungal meant that Terran's had to pre split their marines before going into creep if there was heavy infestor usage. It wasn't as interesting to watch, but it wasn't terribad either.
Design Reasoning:
+ Show Spoiler +Queens are supporting caster to help grow the swarm (inject) and keep it alive (transfuse / creep tumors). They are not meant to be fighting the enemies of the swarm. They are valuable, fragile, and to be well protected deep within the heart of the hive clusters. + Show Spoiler +Personally, I don't like that blizz made the queen to be the default semi-mobile AA, but given the fact that all other zerg T1 had no AA, it was kind of necessary to keep vikings, banshees, phoenix, and void rays from absolutely wrecking zerg face all day long, so I'll let it go. Right now, the queen plays the role more like a buff bodygaurd, as opposed to a nurturing mother. (If you could consider anything about zerg nurturing...) This is not how I felt zerg was meant to be. A body system does not send it's red blood cells to fight off a virus (think of a Terran intrusion as a virus), it calls the specialists to deal with intruders: white blood cells. I feel zerg should operate in a similar manner in that queens are the life-blood of the zerg system, and in order to cleanse the system it must summon the mutations that specialize in eliminating threats to the system. The hydralisk, a 1 supply T1 ranged unit, can now be the catch-all that it was meant to be, instead of the queen. Where lings swarm and overwhelm a low tech intruder, hydras can handle the higher tech threats that lings are not efficient or unable to handle (early hellions, and early banshees.) The queen can go back to what it was supposed to be doing this whole time; letting the teeth of the zerg swarm defend while the queens are helping the eggs mature. Another Tangent + Show Spoiler +As an aside, I love the way Starbow operates their zerg. Each iconic and basic zerg unit (ling, hydra, muta) mutate into a specialized strain to combat specific weaknesses against the intruder (baneling, lurker, corruptor / brood lord). You can only build as many queens as you have hatcheries, transfuse speeds up morphing buildings, and more. At the moment I think starbow has the best zerg in terms of design, and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. Not a complaint, just an observation.
To be truly complete to the conceptual design, queens should have a lowered AA range and less hp, making them even less of a combat fighter and more of a nurse mother. Maybe a stronger transfuse as an upgrade to have them specialize into a medic role. However, since queens are such an integral part of zerg play right now, I feel like simply lowering the range back down to 3 would be a good START to put the queen back in its place.
Going back to a previous example of units having stat points like in an RPG, Queens have too many points in both spell-caster, and all-around unit to be ideally designed and balanced in my opinion. (SpellCaster = powerful in small numbers. All-around = effective in large numbers. SpellCaster + AllAround unit = not well balanced / designed.)
Concerns:
+ Show Spoiler +---The new reapers with the regen and turret might come out too early for zergs to be able to effectively deal with it. Reaper expands were not quite standard, but very common when queens had 3 range. You could park the reapers in between the main and nat before the creep really connected the bases, and cause a lot of havoc. The new map pool alone helps mitigate it, but the new turret might make reaper openings (not OP) very strong. The current map, DayBreak, is not conducive for the tactic since the main and nat are very well protected. But if you were to add in more maps, it might be a concern to address. And then, ONLY if extensive playtesting determines that reaper openings are too strong.
---The buffed zealot, dragoon, and mothership rush combo is definitely strengthened by nerfing queen ground range. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. I find the interaction of the queens trying to buy just enough time for zerglings and hydras to pop while focusing the queens on the MSC would be very entertaining, especially once it gets to the point where we have players of high and equal skill who are proficient at handling these new changes microing against each other.
---One thing I will say, the buffed queen did help ling bane wars become a little bit more bearable. But again, the T1 1 supply Hydra should be able to fill the gap here.
---Widow Mines.... well widow mines and queens share the same range even now, so if a queen wants to atk a mine, the mine can shoot back. Reducing the range on the queen is not going to affect this relationship as much as I thought it might...
Tl;dr
Queens should be the nursing caretakers of the swarm hive clusters; not bodygaurds able to defend everyting.
T1 1 supply Hydras can be the versatile defensive tool zerg uses to stay alive, and rightfully take the place the queen currently holds.
Bring the queen range back down to 3 for now.
**In the future, nerfing the queen's combat capabilities while strengthening its identity as a life-giver is a good step forward.**
Hopefully, this helps get the ball back rolling.
Round 1: FIGHT
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On January 22 2013 12:08 Doominator10 wrote:Back to actual design / balance: I want to shift some attention on the queen, as I think it a strong aspect to why zergs are so comfortable turtling to 3-4 base hive in the current meta of SC2 WoL and Hots. The fact that it is the easiest, safest, and most boring way to play and watch I think is a problem. I believe the queen should finally be allowed to revert back to its original 3 range vs ground. Balance Reasoning: + Show Spoiler +Blizzard buffed the queen in order to make it easier for zergs to defend them selves from aggression. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you side with blizzard) , the queen buffed made it so that all forms of early aggression (specifically TvZ) were essentially worthless. 3-5 queens could really handle anything a Terran threw at it, and forced the match-up into macro games, where zerg naturally had an advantage over Terran. Looking back pre-queen buff: The standard Terran opening was hellion expand. The hellions came out early enough to Force some form of reaction, slowing down droning. The standard response was a spine crawler, a wall, and a queen at the front, or early zergling speed and or roaches. Getting a 3rd pre 5 minutes was hard and dangerous, as was droning up to 70 drones before making a single attacking unit. What did this produce? Early and Mid Games were much more volatile, and elongated. Nowadays, the early game is to about 5 mins, mid up to around 13, and zergs are easily getting hive tech by roughly 14 - 15 minutes. Now, I don't believe I am the only one who thinks that the 2011 year of starcraft (pre queen buff there was more ling bane muta vs marine tank medi) was much more interesting than the current meta. A lot more interesting tactics involved involving what you did with the units you had, as opposed to 'just' having the right composition and being moderately good at hitting the F key or whatever key it is for fungal. Post queen range buff: The IceFisher (popularized by Spanishiwa if I recall correctly) became not just standard, but the easiest way to secure yourself without sacrificing any economy, since queens add to, not detract from economy. It is essentially 4 queen 3rd base from zerg, and expo hellion banshee expo from Terran. Or fast 3 base macro if your a Bomber clone. Zergs can purely use 3-5 queens to defend themselves from everything in the early to early mid, then use infestors to defend everything from mid to late game, and flip between broodlords and ultralisks in hive to kill. Infestor Tangent: + Show Spoiler +The buff to infestors caused an serious upset to PvZ, since stalker collosus was THE comp. of choice, but fungal's new bonus to armored meant everything died. However, TvZ still remained very exciting despite the infestor changes because there were many options a Terran could do early and early mid that would force the zerg to react in the proper manner. Since zerg was supposed to be the 'reactionary race,' this did not seem to be a bad thing. The buff to the DPS of fungal meant that Terran's had to pre split their marines before going into creep if there was heavy infestor usage. It wasn't as interesting to watch, but it wasn't terribad either. Design Reasoning: + Show Spoiler +Queens are supporting caster to help grow the swarm (inject) and keep it alive (transfuse / creep tumors). They are not meant to be fighting the enemies of the swarm. They are valuable, fragile, and to be well protected deep within the heart of the hive clusters. + Show Spoiler +Personally, I don't like that blizz made the queen to be the default semi-mobile AA, but given the fact that all other zerg T1 had no AA, it was kind of necessary to keep vikings, banshees, phoenix, and void rays from absolutely wrecking zerg face all day long, so I'll let it go. Right now, the queen plays the role more like a buff bodygaurd, as opposed to a nurturing mother. (If you could consider anything about zerg nurturing...) This is not how I felt zerg was meant to be. A body system does not send it's red blood cells to fight off a virus (think of a Terran intrusion as a virus), it calls the specialists to deal with intruders: white blood cells. I feel zerg should operate in a similar manner in that queens are the life-blood of the zerg system, and in order to cleanse the system it must summon the mutations that specialize in eliminating threats to the system. The hydralisk, a 1 supply T1 ranged unit, can now be the catch-all that it was meant to be, instead of the queen. Where lings swarm and overwhelm a low tech intruder, hydras can handle the higher tech threats that lings are not efficient or unable to handle (early hellions, and early banshees.) The queen can go back to what it was supposed to be doing this whole time; letting the teeth of the zerg swarm defend while the queens are helping the eggs mature. Another Tangent + Show Spoiler +As an aside, I love the way Starbow operates their zerg. Each iconic and basic zerg unit (ling, hydra, muta) mutate into a specialized strain to combat specific weaknesses against the intruder (baneling, lurker, corruptor / brood lord). You can only build as many queens as you have hatcheries, transfuse speeds up morphing buildings, and more. At the moment I think starbow has the best zerg in terms of design, and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. Not a complaint, just an observation. To be truly complete to the conceptual design, queens should have a lowered AA range and less hp, making them even less of a combat fighter and more of a nurse mother. Maybe a stronger transfuse as an upgrade to have them specialize into a medic role. However, since queens are such an integral part of zerg play right now, I feel like simply lowering the range back down to 3 would be a good START to put the queen back in its place. Going back to a previous example of units having stat points like in an RPG, Queens have too many points in both spell-caster, and all-around unit to be ideally designed and balanced in my opinion. (SpellCaster = powerful in small numbers. All-around = effective in large numbers. SpellCaster + AllAround unit = not well balanced / designed.) Concerns: + Show Spoiler +---The new reapers with the regen and turret might come out too early for zergs to be able to effectively deal with it. Reaper expands were not quite standard, but very common when queens had 3 range. You could park the reapers in between the main and nat before the creep really connected the bases, and cause a lot of havoc. The new map pool alone helps mitigate it, but the new turret might make reaper openings (not OP) very strong. The current map, DayBreak, is not conducive for the tactic since the main and nat are very well protected. But if you were to add in more maps, it might be a concern to address. And then, ONLY if extensive playtesting determines that reaper openings are too strong.
---The buffed zealot, dragoon, and mothership rush combo is definitely strengthened by nerfing queen ground range. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. I find the interaction of the queens trying to buy just enough time for zerglings and hydras to pop while focusing the queens on the MSC would be very entertaining, especially once it gets to the point where we have players of high and equal skill who are proficient at handling these new changes microing against each other.
---One thing I will say, the buffed queen did help ling bane wars become a little bit more bearable. But again, the T1 1 supply Hydra should be able to fill the gap here.
---Widow Mines.... well widow mines and queens share the same range even now, so if a queen wants to atk a mine, the mine can shoot back. Reducing the range on the queen is not going to affect this relationship as much as I thought it might... Tl;dr Queens should be the nursing caretakers of the swarm hive clusters; not bodygaurds able to defend everyting. T1 1 supply Hydras can be the versatile defensive tool zerg uses to stay alive, and rightfully take the place the queen currently holds. Bring the queen range back down to 3 for now. **In the future, nerfing the queen's combat capabilities while strengthening its identity as a life-giver is a good step forward.** Hopefully, this helps get the ball back rolling. Round 1: FIGHT
Yea im in aggreeance. The queen is way to fuckin strong defensively. A tier 1, 150 mineral unit can beat a tier 2 250/125 vray is a fucking joke. And as you pointed out, it basically eliminated any form of pressure that terran could apply in the early game.
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On January 22 2013 12:15 da_head wrote:
it basically eliminated any form of pressure that terran could apply in the early game.
Hallelujah!
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On January 22 2013 12:37 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 12:15 da_head wrote:
it basically eliminated any form of pressure that terran could apply in the early game. Hallelujah!
Qualifier: "eliminated any form of non all-in pressure that a terran could apply in the early game.
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On January 22 2013 09:05 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Changing Worker AI is probably not on the table. I am nearly 100% certain Blizzard will never implement that. I can check with my connections to make sure though Oosh.
One really interesting idea I've read previously for adding scalability to the economy would be to make it so that the mineral patches are like 20% closer to the CC/Nexus/Hatch.. that way the first worker on a patch mines faster due to reduced travel time..but you get diminishing returns as the second worker on a patch will now arrive before his buddy has finished mining and have to wait a little bit. What's really elegant about this is that the actual income levels for 16 workers at a base will be identical to what it is now (as the decreased travel time will be exactly matched by the extra time spent waiting) which means it will have a relatively small impact on the game as a whole, while still adding in much needed scalability. This also has the benefit of not requiring worker AI to be purposely made less efficient, which is something I have trouble believing Blizzard will do.
It might also be considered a positive that income levels will be higher right at the beginning of the game as this may allow some truncation of the first 3 minutes or so we have now where no action ever really takes place. That said some tweak may need to be made to zerg's super early game if you do try this method as right at the start of the game their worker production is limited by income (as they have surplus larvae at this point) whereas the two other races production is limited by the build time for their workers. As such there could be a problem with zerg's economy snowballing a bit.. that said I can't intuitively tell how strong this effect might be so it might not even be an issue.
Anyway something to think about :D
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I have just came up with an idea that I remember seeing somewhere here at TeamLiquid. I might as well share it with you all because why not.
How about increasing the acceleration of workers? They still have the same speed but getting from 0 to their desired speed is much quicker. Or maybe decrease or increase the time spent on a mineral patch.
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On January 22 2013 13:28 Spaceboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 09:05 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Changing Worker AI is probably not on the table. I am nearly 100% certain Blizzard will never implement that. I can check with my connections to make sure though Oosh. One really interesting idea I've read previously for adding scalability to the economy would be to make it so that the mineral patches are like 20% closer to the CC/Nexus/Hatch.. that way the first worker on a patch mines faster due to reduced travel time..but you get diminishing returns as the second worker on a patch will now arrive before his buddy has finished mining and have to wait a little bit. What's really elegant about this is that the actual income levels for 16 workers at a base will be identical to what it is now (as the decreased travel time will be exactly matched by the extra time spent waiting) which means it will have a relatively small impact on the game as a whole, while still adding in much needed scalability. This also has the benefit of not requiring worker AI to be purposely made less efficient, which is something I have trouble believing Blizzard will do. It might also be considered a positive that income levels will be higher right at the beginning of the game as this may allow some truncation of the first 3 minutes or so we have now where no action ever really takes place. That said some tweak may need to be made to zerg's super early game if you do try this method as right at the start of the game their worker production is limited by income (as they have surplus larvae at this point) whereas the two other races production is limited by the build time for their workers. As such there could be a problem with zerg's economy snowballing a bit.. that said I can't intuitively tell how strong this effect might be so it might not even be an issue. Anyway something to think about :D
Are you a wizard?
We will talk about this. That may do it.
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Agreed. The mineral patch idea is by far the most elegant solution to the SC2 economy I have ever heard.
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On January 22 2013 16:16 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 13:28 Spaceboy wrote:On January 22 2013 09:05 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Changing Worker AI is probably not on the table. I am nearly 100% certain Blizzard will never implement that. I can check with my connections to make sure though Oosh. One really interesting idea I've read previously for adding scalability to the economy would be to make it so that the mineral patches are like 20% closer to the CC/Nexus/Hatch.. that way the first worker on a patch mines faster due to reduced travel time..but you get diminishing returns as the second worker on a patch will now arrive before his buddy has finished mining and have to wait a little bit. What's really elegant about this is that the actual income levels for 16 workers at a base will be identical to what it is now (as the decreased travel time will be exactly matched by the extra time spent waiting) which means it will have a relatively small impact on the game as a whole, while still adding in much needed scalability. This also has the benefit of not requiring worker AI to be purposely made less efficient, which is something I have trouble believing Blizzard will do. It might also be considered a positive that income levels will be higher right at the beginning of the game as this may allow some truncation of the first 3 minutes or so we have now where no action ever really takes place. That said some tweak may need to be made to zerg's super early game if you do try this method as right at the start of the game their worker production is limited by income (as they have surplus larvae at this point) whereas the two other races production is limited by the build time for their workers. As such there could be a problem with zerg's economy snowballing a bit.. that said I can't intuitively tell how strong this effect might be so it might not even be an issue. Anyway something to think about :D Are you a wizard? We will talk about this. That may do it.
Ha ha, thanks! However all credit should go to someone called adremeaux on reddit though. I saw him comment on the sc2bw thread there saying there are better ways of fixing the economy than "shitifying" unit movement.. to my great surprise upon asking him what those were, instead of just being a troll, he actually dropped some knowledge bombs :D
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Sorry for the delay, someone very dear to me passed away last night.
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On January 23 2013 05:52 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Sorry for the delay, someone very dear to me passed away last night.
That is sad to hear =( i dont know how to correctly say it in english so: Mein Herzliches Beileid.
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On January 23 2013 05:52 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Sorry for the delay, someone very dear to me passed away last night.
Sorry to hear about that 
My condolences.
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EPT
