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On January 24 2013 03:47 Spaceboy wrote:
I'm slightly concerned with the new corruptor (which admittedly does sound really interesting) that it might cause some weird situations where zerg could easily be overstocked with totally worthless air to air. I mean in WoL if you overproduce air to air there's some where to go with it; vikings can land, phoenixes can lift.. and corruptors could morph to broods. With this facility removed from them I have a slight worry you could see something like mass air toss forcing out 20 corruptors to hold, then remaxing on an all gateway army with no air at all so the zerg is just left hanging with useless supply. This might lead to a weird situation where zergs then end up having to cull their own corruptors to free up that supply and continue with the game.
That said, I guess it's possible that the new corruptors will be so much more efficient (and zergs aware of the possibility of overbuilding them) that maybe only 10 supply worth ever get made and it won't really be an issue. Should be interesting to see :D
We are also looking at this. What makes us more comfortable is that it comes from an all purpose unit like the Mutalisk. To get corruptors, one has to have made a unit to harass. Failing that we can mess with its attack.
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On January 24 2013 07:24 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 03:47 Spaceboy wrote:
I'm slightly concerned with the new corruptor (which admittedly does sound really interesting) that it might cause some weird situations where zerg could easily be overstocked with totally worthless air to air. I mean in WoL if you overproduce air to air there's some where to go with it; vikings can land, phoenixes can lift.. and corruptors could morph to broods. With this facility removed from them I have a slight worry you could see something like mass air toss forcing out 20 corruptors to hold, then remaxing on an all gateway army with no air at all so the zerg is just left hanging with useless supply. This might lead to a weird situation where zergs then end up having to cull their own corruptors to free up that supply and continue with the game.
That said, I guess it's possible that the new corruptors will be so much more efficient (and zergs aware of the possibility of overbuilding them) that maybe only 10 supply worth ever get made and it won't really be an issue. Should be interesting to see :D We are also looking at this. What makes us more comfortable is that it comes from an all purpose unit like the Mutalisk. To get corruptors, one has to have made a unit to harass. Failing that we can mess with its attack.
I think now that the corrupter can spawn the scourges for ressources its way less of a issue because you need less of them and get more untility from every single one.
i mean if you have 5 corrupters the world wont automaticly end (not like 20 corrupters after you killed all colossi)
but those 5 give you enough untility to deal with Air-Ground compositions.
Also in HotS it will be rare that there is no air at all you can attack.
I am excited about its effect on muta vs muta though = )
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Going to be taking a break for about 2 weeks or so from StarCraft 2. I need to take care of myself. My lack of performance has shown. I will post every now and then here on TeamLiquid.
Later.
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im down for games if anyone wants to jump on
edit: also dylan let me know when your on. i have a few issues to discuss.
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My thoughts on each change. I realize there will be some post made while I'm making this one, so some more editing may follow.
[QUOTE]On December 15 2012 07:05 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Update: Jan 22, 2013. Check out our Design Patch 2 Preview!
We are now on EU, Sorry for the long wait guys! Dig in and give us those replays!
[quote]
Design Patch 2 Preview!
Zerg
Mutalisk
+ Show Spoiler +-New ability: Morph to Corruptor (Spire Req)
-New ability: Morph to Brood Lord (Greater Spire Req)
Happy Happy Joy Joy Happy Happy Joy Joy
Dont give a f*** that this was off of Sbow and BW, Love this change.
Corruptor
+ Show Spoiler +-Morph to Broodlord ability removed.
-Morph from Mutalisk. Morph time 20 seconds.
-Morph cost to 50/50 from 150/100.
-HP increased to 250 from 200.
-Attack damage changed to 12+4 Armored.
-Range reduced to 5
Since Vikings are now better vs normal mutas, I think that having mutas turn into a specialized anti armor is pretty good. Dunno how I feel about the HP buff or the Range nerf. Need testing.
+ Show Spoiler +-New Ability: Gestate Cocoon (Auto Cast possible) (Hot Key G)
Cost: 50 Minerals/15 seconds.
Effect: Creates and stores a Volatile Cocoon in the Corruptor.
-New Ability:
Volatile Cocoon
Costs: N/A
Cast: Lay Cocoon
Effect: Creates a stationary, flying Volatile Cocoon unit under Corruptor (like a changeling)
Eggs Unit Template:
Volatile Cocoon
Cost: 1 Supply
HP: 200 Armor: 5
Ability: Emerge (Hotkey E)
Effect: Destroy egg and make 2 Scourge at location. Starts on cooldown. (Autocast on by default)
Autocast Trigger Radius: 6
Clarify this please
Scourge
Cost 0/0/0
35 HP Armor: 0 Movespeed: 3.5
Lifespan: 15 Seconds.
Attack: Acidic Burst (Applies on death like baneling)
Damage: 80 Aoe: .4
Range: Melee
Dafawq? The epicness factor is way to overpowering and I highly doubt this will ever have a change of being incarnated into HotS or even LotV. However, I do like the concept of giving AOE to zerg air. This could be a potential stepping stone to truly allow the infestor to be a specialized "infiltrator" spellcaster, as opposed to the only way zerg can efficiently deal with mass air. (Only AA AoE) Have no prior basis to even begin speculating on how this will translate for the game. To Be Determined.
Terran
Thor
+ Show Spoiler +-Immortality Protocol Removed.
-Thors have a toggle aura: slows all nearby ground units by 30% (including the thor itself and other thors) and forces unburrow/undeploy
Interesting. This can either be really awesome, or really useless depending on the radiu of the aura. Tanks have 13 range, so a 3-5 range aura probably wouldn't do a whole lot. Medivac thor vs swarm hosts anyone? I personally dont think this really fits for the Thor. Feels kind of like it should be on a spell caster, but I will reserve judgement until further testing.
Battlecruiser
+ Show Spoiler +-Removed Behemoth Conduit Ability
-Behemoth Reactor now which enables the Warp Drive ability.
-New Ability: Warp Drive
Cost: 75 Energy
Effect: Battlecruisers begin powering their Warp Drives; after 3 seconds it teleports 15 Range in whatever direction it is facing.
+1
Hehehe, Seems like a fun ability. I can see it would definately be useful when OG starts supporting larger maps. Some interesting WHOOPS moments I can foresee are overshooting the drive and popping up in the middle of a shiddon of AA, or getting feedbacked while charging. Every cinimetaic involving Battlecruisers I have seen involved them warping in somewhere in an epic fashion, so I think this is great from a design / lore perspective.
Diamondback
+ Show Spoiler +-Supply reduced to 2 from 3.
-Attack and HP Numbers are getting tuned down to compensate final numbers will be released after more testing.
+1. Felt like building Diamonds meant I was forced to sacrifice large chunks of my main army, since I couldn't have a lot of em. I think adding overkill on the AA mode would be appropriate.
Hellbat
-Hellbat is being adjusted to match the new HotS Hellbat.
k
Raven
+ Show Spoiler +-Recovery drone heals 100 health rather than 50% health.
-Seeker missile now matches HotS Seeker Missile.
I liked OneGoal's Raven's seeker better than the Hots one. T__T The recovery drone seems to make it better for tanks and diamonds, but less effective for thors. TBD
Protoss
Colossus
+ Show Spoiler +-Range reduced to 7 from 9.
-Colossus now has a different aoe that fires two vertical parallel lines away from it allowing it to hit units as far away as 10 units.
Happy Happy Joy Joy Happy Happy Joy Joy.
There has been a lot of discussion since I think mid 2011 about giving the Colossus vertical AoE. I really REALLY hope OneGoal's collosus can produce the results we are looking for. Slightly confused about the description, but will see how it works in game.
Tempest
+ Show Spoiler +-Tempests have a single attack that does 30+20 to Armored. (+3+2 per level)
-Decreased attack speed to 4 seconds from 3.
-Tempests have a minimum range of 3
+1
Dat 80-90 dmg vs massive was quite ridiculous. I like the moderation, and the minimum range. Too bad widows dont shoot up anymore XD
Dark Templar
+ Show Spoiler +-Figment Removed
-Uraj Talisman added 150/150/80: Increases Speed by 20% and grants immunity to all Slows and Stuns.
+1
Does fungal and EMP still reveal, or just do no damage. If it doesn't reveal either, then FU!@$ YEAH. AWESUMSAUCE power overwhelming. As a generic thing I love how things are being buff to equality rather than nerfed.
Immortal
+ Show Spoiler +-Hardened Shield now has a 3 second cooldown after being triggered.
-Hardened Shield no longer requires Research.
-New Research: Anion Fortification 100/100/100. Reduces Hardened Shield's Cooldown to 1 second.
+1
Interesting dynamic. As siege tank fire rate is 2. something seconds, the initial 3 to the 1 cooldown is a neat aspect. Also makes them much better vs hydras and marauders early game.
Mothership Core
+ Show Spoiler +-Fortify now grants detection to affected buildings.
-Envision Removed.
-Photon Overcharge reintroduced with new numbers.
-Cost: 75 Energy
-Grants any Protoss Nexus a 40 damage attack at 11 range for 20 seconds.
+1. I always liked photon overcharge. Tho I do think that maybe reducing the stats on the puri... photon overcharge might need adjusting, since you can build multiple mothership cores now.
[spoiler]
[/quote]
Mostly +1s :D
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The Corruptor can manufacture, store, and lay airborne eggs. These are permanent units that cost 1 supply. At any time they can be ordered (or triggered by enemy fliers) to hatch, destroying the egg (and the supply) and creating 2 temporary Scourge.
The Thor's ability is called Seismic Pulse radius is 4, which is significantly large.
The DT's CC immunity doesn't stop reveals.
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Do the scourge themselves have .5 supply each, or is it just the egg that gives the supply (since the scourge are temporary). I ask for scenarios like diamonds running under a flotilla of unprotected eggs and gunning em down, would canceling the eggs (err triggering) remove the supply strain?
Sad about the no reveal on the DT. Does EMP still remove shields? (Or is the immunity only for the effect of CC, not the damage....). Still a great upgrade.
I dont feel like the the Pulse really fits the Thor. I can see POTENTIAL gameplay with interesting usage of Dropping pulsing thors onto tank lines or swarm host burrows since it has -30% spd (or denying roach micro...), but the initial description sounds weird. If it produces more interesting gameplay, then I can live with a *slight* lore discrepancy. We'll see.
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I have a few concerns from the games I've been playing. I feel that immortals are a little too powerful for early game pvp (and their early game is getting even more buffed). The only counter to them is zealots, but they can't do anything without charge or sentries (both which come much later), especially with the immo speed upgraded. However, perhaps this is intentional on your part? (replicating goon vs goon in broodwar). However, broodwar had reavers, which presented the interesting dynamic. Mass goons and play more defensively/safer, or tech up to reaver and take an early expo but riskier (if you mismicro reaver/shuttle, you lose). However, i dont feel there is that dynamic here. I suppose its possible to set up a defensive stature and take an early expo and defend with photon charge? Though honestly, I feel that 3 gate immo zlot and attacking once your opponent expands is simply too powerful. And nothing from the stargate can seem to hold it as well? (phoenix to lift immo maybe? vray would just get sniped by immos). Thoughts?
Also a few minor concerns. The mothership core doesnt move to its rally point after being built, please fix this. Also, the msc movement feels very clunky and awkward (hots it's a lot more crisp).
And finally, how does mid game mech deal with fast muta? Now that widow mines no longer hit air, i feel that terran has to blindy make diamondbacks? (and im not even sure how effective they are against muta). And diamondbacks arent terribly effective against lings and banes. Thoughts?
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@da_head
The biggest strength of the mutalisk (early on) is the surprise factor. Just like with banshees or DTs, if they catch you unprepared, they can absolutely wreck face. However with zerg, as a general rule of thumb: the earlier he gets mutas, the less mutas he can physically have. Do you blindly make missile turrets on a regular basis? Do you blindly make thors? If so, you are doing it wrong. You need to have intelligence that prompts you to respond to the mutas. Keep scouting, and since you will be building tanks if you're going mech you can easily spit out at LEAST 2-3 diamonds ready fast. OR do what many higher lvl GM mech players do, and they pre-build an engi bay and mass missle turret before they even begin to suspect mutas.
I actually did a small amount of testing, you actually can't afford 3gate of constant immortals even with 2gas.
Three SCVs on gas harvest 101-114 gas per game minute
So 6 = 202-228 per min.
Immortals are 75gas each, but they build faster than a minute. If you use chrono boost, you can barely afford 2 immortals per round. Forget about mothership cores, Khydarin Mobilizer, etc.
Stargate openings are actually going to be quite strong, as immortals dont do bonus damage vs phoenix, and they dont have longer range than the VR charge, so they can zone out an area (at least temporarily if done correctly). It may be the case that early expanding (1 gate or less) will never be a possiblility if protoss remains as they are. I believe it is said that PvP is the most like Warcraft 3, where every unit is expensive and valuable. There were 30+ minute games where you might have seen maybe 1 expo taken by 1 player in that game, so dont be shocked about not expanding early in PvP.
I fully agree on the Mothership Core. Fix dat isht plox :D
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On January 25 2013 08:46 Doominator10 wrote:
@da_head
The biggest strength of the mutalisk (early on) is the surprise factor. Just like with banshees or DTs, if they catch you unprepared, they can absolutely wreck face. However with zerg, as a general rule of thumb: the earlier he gets mutas, the less mutas he can physically have. Do you blindly make missile turrets on a regular basis? Do you blindly make thors? If so, you are doing it wrong. You need to have intelligence that prompts you to respond to the mutas. Keep scouting, and since you will be building tanks if you're going mech you can easily spit out at LEAST 2-3 diamonds ready fast. OR do what many higher lvl GM mech players do, and they pre-build an engi bay and mass missle turret before they even begin to suspect mutas.
I actually did a small amount of testing, you actually can't afford 3gate of constant immortals even with 2gas.
Three SCVs on gas harvest 101-114 gas per game minute
So 6 = 202-228 per min.
Immortals are 75gas each, but they build faster than a minute. If you use chrono boost, you can barely afford 2 immortals per round. Forget about mothership cores, Khydarin Mobilizer, etc.
Stargate openings are actually going to be quite strong, as immortals dont do bonus damage vs phoenix, and they dont have longer range than the VR charge, so they can zone out an area (at least temporarily if done correctly). It may be the case that early expanding (1 gate or less) will never be a possiblility if protoss remains as they are. I believe it is said that PvP is the most like Warcraft 3, where every unit is expensive and valuable. There were 30+ minute games where you might have seen maybe 1 expo taken by 1 player in that game, so dont be shocked about not expanding early in PvP.
I fully agree on the Mothership Core. Fix dat isht plox :D
when i said 3 gate, i was referring to a mix of immo and zlots, as you cant support making 3 immos at once.
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On January 25 2013 08:52 da_head wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 25 2013 08:46 Doominator10 wrote:
@da_head
The biggest strength of the mutalisk (early on) is the surprise factor. Just like with banshees or DTs, if they catch you unprepared, they can absolutely wreck face. However with zerg, as a general rule of thumb: the earlier he gets mutas, the less mutas he can physically have. Do you blindly make missile turrets on a regular basis? Do you blindly make thors? If so, you are doing it wrong. You need to have intelligence that prompts you to respond to the mutas. Keep scouting, and since you will be building tanks if you're going mech you can easily spit out at LEAST 2-3 diamonds ready fast. OR do what many higher lvl GM mech players do, and they pre-build an engi bay and mass missle turret before they even begin to suspect mutas.
I actually did a small amount of testing, you actually can't afford 3gate of constant immortals even with 2gas.
Three SCVs on gas harvest 101-114 gas per game minute
So 6 = 202-228 per min.
Immortals are 75gas each, but they build faster than a minute. If you use chrono boost, you can barely afford 2 immortals per round. Forget about mothership cores, Khydarin Mobilizer, etc.
Stargate openings are actually going to be quite strong, as immortals dont do bonus damage vs phoenix, and they dont have longer range than the VR charge, so they can zone out an area (at least temporarily if done correctly). It may be the case that early expanding (1 gate or less) will never be a possiblility if protoss remains as they are. I believe it is said that PvP is the most like Warcraft 3, where every unit is expensive and valuable. There were 30+ minute games where you might have seen maybe 1 expo taken by 1 player in that game, so dont be shocked about not expanding early in PvP.
I fully agree on the Mothership Core. Fix dat isht plox :D when i said 3 gate, i was referring to a mix of immo and zlots, as you cant support making 3 immos at once.
Ah, K. Np.
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Immortals get get ruined by Colossi with their upgrade since the reworked shield doesn't really work well against multiple attacks or the aftershock damage. We aren't totally finished tweaking Immortals.
The MSC is much tighter, we are having troubles making it feel smoother. >.> Stoopid MS.
We are making Diamondbacks take up less supply and minerals, making them a better soft deterent. Similarly, Vikings and Turrets are pretty handy if you catch your Z opponent making a spire.
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On January 25 2013 10:19 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Immortals get get ruined by Colossi with their upgrade since the reworked shield doesn't really work well against multiple attacks or the aftershock damage. We aren't totally finished tweaking Immortals.
The MSC is much tighter, we are having troubles making it feel smoother. >.> Stoopid MS.
We are making Diamondbacks take up less supply and minerals, making them a better soft deterent. Similarly, Vikings and Turrets are pretty handy if you catch your Z opponent making a spire.
interesting. kk
also im on now if anyone wants to play.
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can i drop an idea for the corrupter?
i have always wanted corrupter to mimic devourer. the devourer special ability slowed target's attack speed. i have long felt this to be a very valuable addition to sc2 specifically with the corrupter's usual matchups (muta, viking, colossus), and is more entertaining than just lazy hard counter system. the devourer ability (acid spores) was part of the attack but its better as a spell to replace corruption so you could cast on ground units like thor. the corrupter would lose much of its damage output in exchange for this spell, of course. really the big reason is a way make carrier more popular vs zerg because the spell wont effect them (interceptors). thanks for reading.
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I actually kinda like the devourer style effect for the corruptor. But again, I don't ripping specific things from BroodWar will entice blizzard to really look into this specific aspect..... but then I think of Viper and Blinding Cloud. And on that strain the scourge Idea might also work pretty well.
Truthfully, I would prefer the stacking acidic effect, as it seems to fit better for a unit called "corruptor," but the new scourge might solve more gameplay issues and just outright be more bad@$$.
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dylan u comin on tonight? hideortoss and i have been playin extensively and have a few interesting things to discuss.
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On January 26 2013 04:40 Doominator10 wrote:
I actually kinda like the devourer style effect for the corruptor. But again, I don't ripping specific things from BroodWar will entice blizzard to really look into this specific aspect..... but then I think of Viper and Blinding Cloud. And on that strain the scourge Idea might also work pretty well.
Truthfully, I would prefer the stacking acidic effect, as it seems to fit better for a unit called "corruptor," but the new scourge might solve more gameplay issues and just outright be more bad@$$.
my only comment on the scourge is that its in effect a baneling in the sky, in the way you have to activate it much like marines walking over a buried bling. and you drop a tonne of them and you can quickly remove an enemy air force. the acid spore spell is more to slow down battles and enable retreats, rather than just two armies pounding away at each other for a minute and then remaxing
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Just a couple quirks:
Shouldn't phoenix base range be 5 now?
Does a hallucinated VoidRay still work like a OneGoal VoidRay?
To be continued
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On January 26 2013 11:31 Doominator10 wrote:
Does a hallucinated VoidRay still work like a OneGoal VoidRay?
Any hallucinated units cannot use abilities.
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EPT
