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On April 03 2013 01:10 banjo1735 wrote:
Repetitive motion injuries can occur in more than just the wrist and, from the little I've read, are caused by a variety of factors including repetition (obviously), force, and posture. I'm not convinced that higher sensitivity means more force on the wrist. Actually, since lower sensitivity means you have to move the mouse over a larger distance in a shorter amount of time, wouldn't that mean that you have to exert more force on it?
I don’t know of studies which would support the “low sensitivity is healthier for your hands” hypothesis. I just think it makes sense and I did a lot of self experiments (e. g. playing two weeks with a very high CPI).
On April 03 2013 01:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Hm, at 1080p 1800DPI on my DeathAdder feels too fast. 900DPI feels just about right to me, but am I losing a lot by having it be that low?
These two statements are why I'm asking:
"As a general rule you need more CPI, the higher the resolution of your monitor."
"With 2000 CPI you’re on the safe side. Most players need significantly less."
I would definitely give 900 CPI a shot. And I don’t think you’re loosing anything. If anything, your winning: speed, precision and for the health benefits see the side discussion in this thread. 
The moment you start loosing speed with low CPI is when you cannot control your army/base/screen fast enough. Say for example you would have to lift your mouse 2 times only to reach the minimap. If you can click comfortably on your minimap — you should be fine.
On April 03 2013 01:29 rolando wrote:
hi, thanks for makiing this thread. I use a sensei at 5600 DPI but in game I uncheck mouse sensitivity. do you recommend this or should I change it to 51%? The sensei has been working great so far but I was just wondering if I was skipping pixels.
If you unchecked mouse sensitivity in SC 2 your Windows settings matter. If Windows is at 6/11 you don’t skip pixels.
I seriously recommend that you lower your sensitivity, though. By playing with 5600 CPI you’re limiting yourself. I would try a significantly lower CPI value and give it a few weeks (don’t just abort after one frustrating game!).
On April 03 2013 01:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
Basically, the nature of Repetitive Strain Injuries is very much in the name. Very high sensitivities mean you move your wrist just as frequently, but in a much narrower range of movement. Instinctively you'd think reducing the amount you move the mouse via high-sensitivity settings would alleviate this, but for me and a friend this actually made our wrists worse.
I get the same in my picking hand on guitar, it's not a wide movement, but that in itself can cause issues over time.
Good explanation and example. Thanks. 
On April 03 2013 02:30 TroW wrote:
I've been using a Zowie Mico for maybe 6 months now and I initially put it on 1600 DPI (it only has 400, 800, and 1600 as options). I read somewhere that this 1600 was "simulated"
...
The only consistent issues I have noticed are that 1) sometimes the mouse will randomly shoot several inches across the screen when I'm moving it around quickly in a direction that makes no sense given my movements and 2) the cursor can be a tad bothersome to move across the entire monitor quickly when I need to click the minimap, place buildings quickly, etc.
1600 CPI on the Mico is interpolated, correct. If effectively behaves like a mouse with 800 CPI and with 8/11 in Windows (multiplication factor of 2). The Mico, so to say, skips pixels by design. The Mico also is known for erratic movements as you described it. On top of that I just hate the stiff buttons the Mico has. ;P
On April 03 2013 02:30 TroW wrote:so I took it down to 800 and upped my windows mouse speed to 7/11 to compensate for the absurd slowness.
It felt like the 800 was more reliable and accurate in reading my movements than the 1600 DPI, but I never did test pixel skipping or anything like that, I just went with how it felt to use the mouse. I have my mouse sensitivity in SC2 turned off so supposedly it is the same mouse speed in game as it is in windows.
I really like the Mico because of its shape and size, but I was wondering if you knew of a better way for me to get the speed higher than 800 DPI on 6/11 without causing a bunch of pixel skipping.
I would like to find a way to minimize pixel skipping and such while getting the cursor a bit faster than it is presently.
Bad news: If 800 CPI is too slow for you and you want to keep using the Mico, you will have to arrange yourself with pixel skipping. Either on a hardware level (set your Mico on 1600 CPI) or on a software level (set Windows above 6/11). With 800 CPI and Glymbols tool you could reach 1000 CPI (11/20), 1200 CPI (12/20) and 1400 CPI (13/20).
Edit: you could lower the resolution of your monitor. At 1280x720 your mouse will be 1.5 times faster than at 1920x1080. However: Image quality can suffer a lot when your monitor runs with a non native resolution. Also your input lag will be higher.
On April 03 2013 03:15 ROOTT1 wrote:
in general i find it much harder to micro the higher your dpi is, makes it hard to select individual units (blink stalker micro for example)
edit: my current dpi is 1350 but i keep switching back and forth between 1350-1440-1530.. cant settle on a speed =/
I once tried to lift a sentry in the middle of a bunch of stalkers while I was playing with a very high CPI value. I missed. ;P
Experimenting with different sensitivities is great. How much time these experiments need is a difficult question. The danger always being that one didn’t give the experiment enough time.
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Hey, very interesting blog!
So I've gotten a Roccat Savu 4-5 months ago and unfortunately the DPI settings are 400, 800, 1600 and 4000. Which already is a bit weird to me, as I'd imagine if 400 is possible all multiples of 400 should be? But unfortunately there's not even the option for 1200 and I just think 800 is definitely too low for me and 1600 rather too high, although I went with it as I didn't see any other choice.
I guess there's just no way I can reach 1200 or 1400 as the harmonic values would result in multipliers of 0.25 or 0.5. Which means 1600 DPI will result in 800 at best and 4000 in 2000 (too high) or 1000.
Maybe I'll try out 1000 as I think I just don't move my right hand enough with 1600 dpi :/
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United Kingdom20276 Posts
800 is a good number, i'd strongly reccomend it as a starting point for anyone looking for mouse accuracy and strong muscle memory etc on 1920x1080, don't be so quick to dismiss it.
There was a time when i could not use anything below 2k, now i'd consider 1k almost unbearably high, though i understand most dont share that view, 800 is more of a medium sensitivity than a low one, consider it
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Thats 540dpi, i would consider my accuracy pretty bad on that map and settings (89%.. due to the mods and not knowing it very well) But seriously, you never see people using >1.5k dpi even attempting this kind of shit. Even at 540, my hand was not moving much, it's not really limiting at all unless you go lower. + Show Spoiler +Ignore the grip/mouse movement details on cam though, i was nervous so it was different, weird etc because of streaming, and viewers
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It's good to have discussions like these on the forums, I believe there will be more in the future as players become more aware of the importance of gaming peripherals to performance.
However, it's important to realize that what players are actually looking for isn't the "right sensitivity" or even the "right mouse". The real question being asked is, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" This distinction is important because gaming peripherals and game settings are actual a means to an end rather than ends in themselves. In the following, I'll dissect how nuanced achieving smoothness, precision, and consistency in a game is.
"Fast"
Screen resolution, DPI/CPI, software sensitivity are all factors in determining how quickly a mouse moves across the screen. However, mouse grip styles (and also their associated pivots) and mouse pads are also huge contributing factors. The general notion that larger screen resolution = more DPI/CPI is true. A larger resolution means more pixels and DPI/CPI is a measure of how many pixels a mouse moves per inch (e.g. speed, not precision which is a common mix up), therefore more DPI = you move more across the screen with the same distance traveled on your mouse pad. That said, how you move the mouse completely changes how a user perceives any changes in resolution/DPI.
For palm grip players this mean that your pivot is further up your arm (wrist, elbow, shoulder, basically anywhere you have joints). Your movements are often sweeping and larger than other mouse grip types which means you tend to have lower sensitivity settings (this will refer to both DPI and software-based) and frequently pick up the mouse to reposition it to reach the edges of your screen. Mouse pads choice is much more important for you guys as you interact with it far more than other grip types. The speed and feel of a pad depends on the player. Generally, a player may choose a faster pad and compensate for it with a lower sensitivity for control and vice versa. The feel of a pad would mean how rough or textured the pad feels to the player. Some players prefer to be able to feel the pad under their fingers to "track" where they are in their movement (during their sweeping motion, whenever they pick up and reposition their mouse), while others don't really place their fingers close enough to the pad to feel it and would rather have the sensation of moving their mouse over air. Also note that mouse pads can also affect the LOD distance of a mouse. LOD distance is the lift-off distance of a mouse and basically means how much you have to lift the mouse off from its surface before it stops tracking. A mouse with a higher LOD would mean that you have to lift it up higher before it stops tracking. Generally, palm grip players and/or players with lower sensitivities find it easier to lift up their mouse a small amount to reposition because of their pivot (this has to do with economy of motion and how it's easier for a player with a wrist or even elbow pivot to pick up a mouse higher than a player with a shoulder pivot). Consequently, even a player with a resolution/sensitivity combination that would be viewed as "slow" if you only considered those 2 factors could be moving quite quickly in-game with the right grip/pad. They would simply be using more mouse surface area and constantly picking up their mouse to achieve this speed (but gaining greater control in the process). As a final caveat, I want to add that FPS players tend to use this grip the most because of the control it gives and how movement in their game works. Unlike in RTS games, an FPS player will often use "big" movements to move in their game which requires them to pan camera angles than move across pixels on a flat environment. Also when compared to RTS games, they typically do not need to change directions constantly, rapidly, or unexpectedly when doing such a panning movement and use smaller movements to aim their weapon. This also means that a mouse designed with this type of use in mind will have a higher "perfect control speed" (e.g. how fast the mouse can physical move while still maintaining perfect tracking on its sensors) than for games that feature more players with claw or fingertip grips.
Claw grip players will generally have their pivot closer to the wrist and higher sensitivities, so while some of these players may also pick up their mouse often like palm grip players, they do so in a smaller surface area.
Fingertip grip players will almost always have their pivot at the wrist and generally have the highest sensitivities. They will also pick up the mouse far less (some players will even have their sensitivities high enough so that they don't need to). This also means that you need to be applying constant tension to your nerves and tendons in order to be able to have control over such precise movements over such short distances (you basically need to have control as fine as a sixteenth of an inch compared to 3-4 inches) and is why people say it causes RSI. It's tension that causes injuries. The repetitive in RSI is when you apply constant tension, repeatedly. Personally, I've spent over 3 months trying to get used to 2300 DPI on 1920x1080 for SC2 and decided that I just couldn't get the control down at the precision I needed for professional level play. I've since switched to 1150 and am aiming for 800 with a faster pad.
You can basically think of these things as how "zoomed in" you are with your mouse. Generally, a lower sensitivity means more pad surface area which results in greater granularity of control. The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement (e.g. move the mouse more, faster to have the same speed in-game as someone with higher sensitivity). Also note that the grip styles and sensitivities are correlated but independent of each other (e.g. a fingertip grip doesn't always mean you should have high sensitivity), while the pivot and physical range of motion are not. This means that with a wrist pivot, you can only physically move your mouse so much with a palm, claw, and fingertip (with palm being able to move the least and fingertip the most, considering vertical and horizontal movements). You have the option of picking up and re-planting your pivot to increase your range of motion in your game (e.g. be able to reach the edge of your screen), but depending on your grip and sensitivity, you're stuck with the granularity control within that pivot.
"Smooth"
I'll define smoothness as "the speed and economy of motion at which a player is able to move from one complete mouse action to the next". Translated to sports-terms, it would be akin to agility; it is also related to Day9's "hang". As touched upon in "speed", this is something that RTS games place heavy emphasis on (especially at higher levels). In sports-terms it would be like basketball as opposed to tennis where change of direction happens much more frequently at shorter travel distances. Here, players with palm/claw grip types (and their associated sensitivities and pivots) will benefit more from a mouse pad with faster initial movement. This is also very closely associated with mouse accuracy since you finish one complete mouse action that much more efficiently (Day9's click once, instead of spamming with mouse), so you can smoothly transition into the next.
"Precise"
I've pretty much already covered this at this point, but I'll try to elaborate as best as I can. The reason you're generally going to have much better precision with a lower sensitivity is because you're much less likely to over or undershoot if your movement isn't a short twitching motion (like with high sensitivity). It really comes down to granularity of control within your pivot. Picking up your mouse to reposition your pivot will be awkward at first (what isn't at first?) but once you get used to it, it enables you to have the best of both worlds. You'll often notice Koreans twitch their mouse laterally (using pivot) then reposition their mouse across the pad to do this. You won't really lose accuracy doing this and the "dead time" you have while you pick up the mouse and reposition it can easily be mitigated with skill (e.g. knowing when to pick up your mouse so managing your range of motion in-game). The physical movements in keyboard and mouse (e.g. how to hit control groups faster with your fingers, reposition mouse, how to physically click the buttons) are another aspect of mechanics that are often overlooked (as opposed to not getting supply blocked) but that's for another post. Note that I assume that we are not working with software-based mouse acceleration (most commonly enhanced pointer precision in Windows). Sensor-based (on the mouse itself, generally much less severe) is much more manageable and should be [comparably] compatible with my post. It's basically possible to get used to sensor-based acceleration, but not ideal.
"Consistent"
Like precision, this has been covered for the most part but it's also unique in that your equipment probably matters the most here. While it's possible to somewhat get used to some inconsistencies like acceleration, when you put it all together it really does come down to how reliable your equipment is so you have to adjust as minimally as possible. This is especially important for tournament players as you're now contending with your own body as another source of possible inconsistency. Nerves, adrenaline, doubt, concentration, these are only some of the factors that can affect how you personally answer, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" when it matters most. Even for more casual players, ladder anxiety alone can make you overshoot the minerals with your initial split (or rally). Having greater control and margin for error with consistent equipment along with a lower sensitivity allows you to get into a rhythm without having to constantly second-guess yourself.
Conclusion
For all the players just getting into selecting a mouse/pad, congratulations. You're in for a rewarding journey on playing games where you if you will it, it will happen. I hope this has opened a world of possibilities instead of complicated things for you.
I've done a lot of research into this sort of thing and many of the ideas presented aren't something I've come up with independently but taken in from sources that I've believed to be useful. I'll format it and make it more presentable later if people want since I'm not sure if most people can be bothered to read through this one post in a thread.
Note: A mouse like the MiCO is a good example of a mouse where a lot of the angles in this post have been considered. The stiff mouse switches that people tend to complain about are the result of a claw-esque grip from the StarTale players who press on them much harder and from a vertical angle than most players are accustomed to. I personally went from a Xai to the AM-GS to the MiCo (for SC2) and the transition from the Xai to the AM-GS was the hardest since that was the biggest jump in switch stiffness. I've since gotten used to it and while my double-click speed is strictly slower than the Xai, I frankly don't need it and prefer the firm click now instead. It gives me a greater sense of control so I don't spam or accidentally click as much and is more than sufficient for engagements and such.
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On April 03 2013 04:24 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Hey, very interesting blog!
So I've gotten a Roccat Savu 4-5 months ago and unfortunately the DPI settings are 400, 800, 1600 and 4000. Which already is a bit weird to me, as I'd imagine if 400 is possible all multiples of 400 should be? But unfortunately there's not even the option for 1200 and I just think 800 is definitely too low for me and 1600 rather too high, although I went with it as I didn't see any other choice.
I guess there's just no way I can reach 1200 or 1400 as the harmonic values would result in multipliers of 0.25 or 0.5. Which means 1600 DPI will result in 800 at best and 4000 in 2000 (too high) or 1000.
Maybe I'll try out 1000 as I think I just don't move my right hand enough with 1600 dpi :/
On April 03 2013 04:29 Cyro wrote:
800 is a good number, i'd strongly reccomend it as a starting point for anyone looking for mouse accuracy and strong muscle memory etc on 1920x1080, don't be so quick to dismiss it.
I definitely would choose 800 as a starting point. If that is too slow for you I would use 1600 CPI with 7/20 (resulting in 1000 CPI). 7/20 is inconsistent in the way it drops counts, but you have no choice if 800 is too slow for you.
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On April 03 2013 04:09 blueslobster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 01:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Hm, at 1080p 1800DPI on my DeathAdder feels too fast. 900DPI feels just about right to me, but am I losing a lot by having it be that low?
These two statements are why I'm asking:
"As a general rule you need more CPI, the higher the resolution of your monitor."
"With 2000 CPI you’re on the safe side. Most players need significantly less."
I would definitely give 900 CPI a shot. And I don’t think you’re loosing anything. If anything, your winning: speed, precision and for the health benefits see the side discussion in this thread. The moment you start loosing speed with low CPI is when you cannot control your army/base/screen fast enough. Say for example you would have to lift your mouse 2 times only to reach the minimap. If you can click comfortably on your minimap — you should be fine.
Thanks for the clarification. It feels pretty much exactly the same as I've had my mouse settings for the last several months, but it's more "technically" accurate now (after checking with the movement recorder) so I guess I'm pulling ahead in this :D
Maybe this is the break I need to finally get GM!!!!..... lolol
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lol blue... i saw ur pic in the blog and thought, wtf i know him, isnt this ips.blue? and yes he is xD. dunno if you remember me, back then my nick was mulliwulli or something like that and i often played games with you and avenger xD. sadly IPS isnt anymore  .
nice work btw , back then you were already an mousefreak, even if i doubt that the settings back then where ideal haha :D
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On April 03 2013 04:58 blueslobster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 04:24 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Hey, very interesting blog!
So I've gotten a Roccat Savu 4-5 months ago and unfortunately the DPI settings are 400, 800, 1600 and 4000. Which already is a bit weird to me, as I'd imagine if 400 is possible all multiples of 400 should be? But unfortunately there's not even the option for 1200 and I just think 800 is definitely too low for me and 1600 rather too high, although I went with it as I didn't see any other choice.
I guess there's just no way I can reach 1200 or 1400 as the harmonic values would result in multipliers of 0.25 or 0.5. Which means 1600 DPI will result in 800 at best and 4000 in 2000 (too high) or 1000.
Maybe I'll try out 1000 as I think I just don't move my right hand enough with 1600 dpi :/ Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 04:29 Cyro wrote:
800 is a good number, i'd strongly reccomend it as a starting point for anyone looking for mouse accuracy and strong muscle memory etc on 1920x1080, don't be so quick to dismiss it. I definitely would choose 800 as a starting point. If that is too slow for you I would use 1600 CPI with 7/20 (resulting in 1000 CPI). 7/20 is inconsistent in the way it drops counts, but you have no choice if 800 is too slow for you.
I went with 4000 CPI and 4/20 now, which should result in 1000 while remaining harmonic, right?
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Nice information. btw fixed in HOTS? (now 50% default value.) unlike WOL (51% default value.)
mousesensitivity=0.500000 (in game 50%) , mousesensitivity=0.509934 (in game 51%) in variable.txt
thus now 50% 1:1 ratio ?
sorry for my bad english.
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On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
It's good to have discussions like these on the forums, I believe there will be more in the future as players become more aware of the importance of gaming peripherals to performance.
Definitely. Esport has a long way to go.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
However, it's important to realize that what players are actually looking for isn't the "right sensitivity" or even the "right mouse". The real question being asked is, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" This distinction is important because gaming peripherals and game settings are actual a means to an end rather than ends in themselves.
I agree. But as of now a perfectly configured mouse simply is the state of the art. Things like Occulus and The Leap have the potential to change everything. But they aren’t there, yet. Further: they are much more suited for FPS than RTS.
That’s why mice will stick around for a few years to come …
I agree that sensitivity is much more than “how fast is my mouse”. I very much enjoyed reading your post. You have a deep understanding of how different aspects play together.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
mouse grip styles (and also their associated pivots) and mouse pads are also huge contributing factors.
I agree.
Mouse pads sadly have a hard time in the RTS scene. I don’t know how often I’ve seen people proudly stating that they use their table or a peace of paper (and of course the infamous 5 € mouse and 10 € keyboard).
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
For palm grip players this mean that your pivot is further up your arm (wrist, elbow, shoulder, basically anywhere you have joints). Your movements are often sweeping and larger than other mouse grip types which means you tend to have lower sensitivity settings (this will refer to both DPI and software-based) and frequently pick up the mouse to reposition it to reach the edges of your screen … Generally, palm grip players and/or players with lower sensitivities find it easier to lift up their mouse a small amount to reposition because of their pivot (this has to do with economy of motion and how it's easier for a player with a wrist or even elbow pivot to pick up a mouse higher than a player with a shoulder pivot). Consequently, even a player with a resolution/sensitivity combination that would be viewed as "slow" if you only considered those 2 factors could be moving quite quickly in-game with the right grip/pad. They would simply be using more mouse surface area and constantly picking up their mouse to achieve this speed (but gaining greater control in the process). As a final caveat, I want to add that FPS players tend to use this grip the most because of the control it gives and how movement in their game works. Unlike in RTS games, an FPS player will often use "big" movements to move in their game which requires them to pan camera angles than move across pixels on a flat environment. Also when compared to RTS games, they typically do not need to change directions constantly, rapidly, or unexpectedly when doing such a panning movement and use smaller movements to aim their weapon. This also means that a mouse designed with this type of use in mind will have a higher "perfect control speed" (e.g. how fast the mouse can physical move while still maintaining perfect tracking on its sensors) than for games that feature more players with claw or fingertip grips.
Again, I agree.
I think palm grip is not the best choice for playing RTS. It may very well be for FPS. But when it comes to RTS I think fingertip grip is superior.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Fingertip grip players will almost always have their pivot at the wrist and generally have the highest sensitivities. They will also pick up the mouse far less (some players will even have their sensitivities high enough so that they don't need to). This also means that you need to be applying constant tension to your nerves and tendons in order to be able to have control over such precise movements over such short distances (you basically need to have control as fine as a sixteenth of an inch compared to 3-4 inches) and is why people say it causes RSI. It's tension that causes injuries. The repetitive in RSI is when you apply constantly tension, repeatedly. Personally, I've spent over 3 months trying to get used to 2300 DPI on 1920x1080 for SC2 and decided that I just couldn't get the control down at the precision I needed for professional level play. I've since switched to 1150 and am aiming for 800 with a faster pad.
3 months should be long enough of an experiment. -_- Lower CPI and a faster pad sounds good.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
You can basically think of these things as how "zoomed in" you are with your mouse. Generally, a lower sensitivity means more pad surface area which results in greater granularity of control. The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement (e.g. move the mouse more, faster to have the same speed in-game as someone with higher sensitivity).
I think many people play RTS with high CPI out of two reasons:
- They think more CPI is strictly better. And if they are able to handle 4000 CPI they must be super gosu as opposed to someone who plays with low CPI.
- They think they will be significantly faster when using high CPI. It is of course true, that a mouse running with 4000 CPI moves four times as fast as a mouse with 1000 CPI. However: the 4000 CPI player has to move his mouse slower. Why? Because other wise he just couldn’t be precise enough. The 1000 CPI player on the other side can move his mouse faster to compensate for his low CPI. So it’s just as you said: “The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement.”
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
"Smooth"
I'll define smoothness as "the speed and economy of motion at which a player is able to move from one complete mouse action to the next". Translated to sports-terms, it would be akin to agility; it is also related to Day9's "hang". As touched upon in "speed", this is something that RTS games place heavy emphasis on (especially at higher levels). In sports-terms it would be like basketball as opposed to tennis where change of direction happens much more frequently at shorter travel distances. Here, players with palm/claw grip types (and their associated sensitivities and pivots) will benefit more from a mouse pad with faster initial movement. This is also very closely associated with mouse accuracy since you finish one complete mouse action that much more efficiently (Day9's click once, instead of spamming with mouse), so you can smoothly transition into the next.
I like to call this «continuousness» or «seamlessness» (which sadly isn’t a proper word). This is really important when playing mouse speed games like Reflex on missionred.com, too. You can’t spam clicks. And if there are lots of targets efficient mouse movement is of prime importance. Further: you cannot get out of the zone, our your rythm. You have to keep your pace and avoid hiccups.
Concerning mousepads: I concur that mousepads with very low initial movement resistance are key for fingertip grip/RTS.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
"Precise"
I've pretty much already covered this at this point, but I'll try to elaborate as best as I can. The reason you're generally going to have much better precision with a lower sensitivity is because you're much less likely to over or undershoot if your movement isn't a short twitching motion (like with high sensitivity).
Agree.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
It really comes down to granularity of control within your pivot. Picking up your mouse to reposition your pivot will be awkward at first (what isn't at first?) but once you get used to it, it enables you to have the best of both worlds.
How often would you have to lift off your mouse if your cursor is located in the upper right corner and you wanted to click on the mini map?
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
You'll often notice Koreans twitch their mouse laterally (using pivot) then reposition their mouse across the pad to do this. You won't really lose accuracy doing this and the "dead time" you have while you pick up the mouse and reposition it can easily be mitigated with skill (e.g. knowing when to pick up your mouse so managing your range of motion in-game). The physical movements in keyboard and mouse (e.g. how to hit control groups faster with your fingers, reposition mouse, how to physically click the buttons) are another aspect of mechanics that are often overlooked (as opposed to not getting supply blocked) but that's for another post.
This really is very advanced.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Note that I assume that we are not working with software-based mouse acceleration (most commonly enhanced pointer precision in Windows). Sensor-based (on the mouse itself, generally much less severe) is much more manageable and should be [comparably] compatible with my post. It's basically possible to get used to sensor-based acceleration, but not ideal.
I think it’s best to avoid sensor-based acceleration (ergo: avoid using mice with 9500/9800 sensors like the Xai, Sensei and some Logitech mice). On the other hand only 9500/9800 allow you to precisely set your CPI on a hardware level. Life isn’t fair …
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
"Consistent"
Like precision, this has been covered for the most part but it's also unique in that your equipment probably matters the most here. While it's possible to somewhat get used to some inconsistencies like acceleration, when you put it all together it really does come down to how reliable your equipment is so you have to adjust as minimally as possible. This is especially important for tournament players as you're now contending with your own body as another source of possible inconsistency. Nerves, adrenaline, doubt, concentration, these are only some of the factors that can affect how you personally answer, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" when it matters most. Even for more casual players, ladder anxiety alone can make you overshoot the minerals with your initial split (or rally). Having greater control and margin for error with consistent equipment along with a lower sensitivity allows you to get into a rhythm without having to constantly second-guess yourself.
I agree in that inconsistency is evil and has to be avoided. That’s why I don’t use a mouse with a 9500/9800 sensor. Even if 6 % acceleration doesn’t sound like much. It adds up.
So what’s your stand on polling? Do you prefer a polling rate which is always at 500 Hz or would you prefer polling which fluctuates between 600-900 Hz (therefore being faster but more inconsistent)?
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Note: A mouse like the MiCO is a good example of a mouse where a lot of the angles in this post have been considered. The stiff mouse switches that people tend to complain about are the result of a claw-esque grip from the StarTale players who press on them much harder and from a vertical angle than most players are accustomed to. I personally went from a Xai to the AM-GS to the MiCo (for SC2) and the transition from the Xai to the AM-GS was the hardest since that was the biggest jump in switch stiffness. I've since gotten used to it and while my double-click speed is strictly slower than the Xai, I frankly don't need it and prefer the firm click now instead. It gives me a greater sense of control so I don't spam or accidentally click as much and is more than sufficient for engagements and such.
So you prefer claw grip over fingertip grip? Care to elaborate?
On April 03 2013 05:13 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maybe this is the break I need to finally get GM!!!!..... lolol
Good luck with that. Keep us informed. 
On April 03 2013 05:17 DeadlyStar wrote:lol blue... i saw ur pic in the blog and thought, wtf i know him, isnt this ips.blue? and yes he is xD. dunno if you remember me, back then my nick was mulliwulli or something like that and i often played games with you and avenger xD. sadly IPS isnt anymore .
Mulliwulli sounds familiar. DeadlyStar definitely being an improvement, name wise. ^^ Good old times …
On April 03 2013 05:17 DeadlyStar wrote:nice work btw , back then you were already an mousefreak
Always have been, always will be. ;P
On April 03 2013 05:18 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
I went with 4000 CPI and 4/20 now, which should result in 1000 while remaining harmonic, right?
According to Skylit (No. #1 mouse tester on the planet) 4000 CPI on the Savu should only be used with 125 Hz in order to reduce jitter. So now you have an interesting decision to make: Harmonic count dropping but slower response time (the difference between 1000 Hz and 125 is a whopping 7 ms) vs. inconsistent count dropping but faster response time.
I would choose inconsistent count dropping but faster response time over harmonic count dropping but slower response time. 125 Hz is just so sluggish. However: dropping counts helps against jitter, so maybe you could get away with 500 Hz. how jittery do your paint drawings look when using the Savu with 4000 CPI and 4/20 on 1000 Hz/500 Hz? Try finding a good compromise.
Edit: Changed consistency into inconsistency. ;P
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On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Fingertip grip players will almost always have their pivot at the wrist and generally have the highest sensitivities. They will also pick up the mouse far less (some players will even have their sensitivities high enough so that they don't need to). This also means that you need to be applying constant tension to your nerves and tendons in order to be able to have control over such precise movements over such short distances (you basically need to have control as fine as a sixteenth of an inch compared to 3-4 inches) and is why people say it causes RSI. It's tension that causes injuries. The repetitive in RSI is when you apply constantly tension, repeatedly. Personally, I've spent over 3 months trying to get used to 2300 DPI on 1920x1080 for SC2 and decided that I just couldn't get the control down at the precision I needed for professional level play. I've since switched to 1150 and am aiming for 800 with a faster pad.
This needs to be called out and discussed exhaustively. Exploding wrists are such a huge factor in pro and amateur gaming and it's my view that injuries of this nature if they cannot be avoided should prevent playing.
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Do you have any advice/an overview for mac users?
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On April 03 2013 23:49 tili wrote:
Do you have any advice/an overview for mac users?
Boot camp that shiz
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Thanks for the great write up.
I'm currently switching from BW to SC2 and I need some advice.
The LMO, which had around 500 DPI I believe, was my mouse of choice in BW. So I went and set my DPI to 1600 (G9x, 1920 x 1080 in game and desktop). However, the mouse feels quite a bit faster than in BW. Shouldn't it feel about the same even with a different aspect ratio?
Could it be that I'm just missing a setting or do I just have to get used to the new settings?
I suspect it's the latter, but any help from you guys would be great.
Thanks
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On April 03 2013 21:22 MildCocoA wrote:
fixed in HOTS? (now 50% default value.) unlike WOL (51% default value.)
mousesensitivity=0.500000 (in game 50%) , mousesensitivity=0.509934 (in game 51%) in variable.txt
thus now 50% 1:1 ratio ?
I just tested again: still there. I also started a thread on the EU battle.net forum. Please post to let Blizzard know, that this thing has got to be fixed!
The following two pictures show how it’s still buggy:
![[image loading]](http://mousespeed.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/54.8676.png)
![[image loading]](http://mousespeed.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/55.3529.png)
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United Kingdom20276 Posts
I agree in that consistency is evil and has to be avoided. That’s why I don’t use a mouse with a 9500/9800 sensor. Even if 6 % acceleration doesn’t sound like much. It adds up.
Its not the fact that acceleration is bad - It's bad for a lot of reasons, don't get me wrong there, it's also useful for advanced users though.
What is NOT useful is a hardware acceleration curve that looks AT ALL remotely close to this:
![[image loading]](http://cdn.overclock.net/3/3a/350x700px-LL-3a123337_belsqdbh6ng4hh0nr.gif)
![[image loading]](http://666kb.com/i/beluh5x7m0nnjthuf.gif)
This is just flat out bad, in EVERY WAY. It's not acceleration - its flat out inconsistent response. Your mouse could move 97 or 105 pixels from the same movement. It's completely worthless and a major hardware defect. Moving the mouse faster does not increase responsiveness - it makes it wildly fluctuate between moving faster than normal and not, so going from 0.8m/s to 1m/s could lower your sens by 7%. Going to 1.2m/s could increase it by that ~7% or so again - until it falls below normal, then rises, then falls, etc. The mouse's actual response averages out to something like 5% faster than it is supposed to track - but its actual response, sensitivity, is just a wildly fluctuating mess that makes it flat out BAD for the user.
THIS is what a USEFUL acceleration curve can look like:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MQCk2FL.png)
Green line with accel, Orange line without. Numbers entirely made up. It can be more or less steep, it can even have different steps where acceleration amount changes, but most important thing is that it does not look anything like the top 2 graphs at all. Of course it can also be a curve, exponentially increasing, etc - not just a solid line, but nothing of any use looks anything like the hardware problems in such sensors.
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On April 03 2013 23:49 tili wrote:
Do you have any advice/an overview for mac users?
Bootcamp, as suggested by dreamseller, could be a solution.
If you want to stick to your Mac: Here is a short SC 2 Mac Guide.
On April 04 2013 00:12 patzer0145 wrote:
Thanks for the great write up.
I'm currently switching from BW to SC2 and I need some advice.
The LMO, which had around 500 DPI I believe, was my mouse of choice in BW. So I went and set my DPI to 1600 (G9x, 1920 x 1080 in game and desktop). However, the mouse feels quite a bit faster than in BW. Shouldn't it feel about the same even with a different aspect ratio?
Could it be that I'm just missing a setting or do I just have to get used to the new settings?
BW ran with 640×480. You run SC 2 with 1920×1080. 640 fits exactly three times into 1920. 480 fits 2.25 times into 1080. I remember the LMO to have more like 400 CPI.
400 CPI times three makes 1200. As your mouse has 1600 CPI this should feel a little faster. Considering you only have 2.25 times more vertical pixels, the difference in speed gets even more pronounced.
On April 04 2013 00:53 Cyro wrote:
Its not the fact that acceleration is bad - It's bad for a lot of reasons, don't get me wrong there, it's also useful for advanced users though.
You’re right. The 9500/9800 not only have acceleration, but they also behave inconsistent.
Even if the 9500/9800 only had the kind of straight acceleration you drew up in your last picture, I still would not recommend this mouse. The reason being: If I wanted to test out acceleration, I would want to be able to perfectly control the acceleration curve.
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I am so surprised that most people use very low dpi settings, like 800. I myself use 1700 and I just can't hit stuff with low speed anymore. Well I could but I really really dislike moving my whole arm. Just as with playing guitar I only use my wrists as a pivot. I didn't start out with high(er) speed settings, but thanks to Osu! I'm quite fast and accurate now with my settings. I'd say if you want to adapt to a new speed massing Osu! plays is ideal to create the muscle memory needed. But don't expect to be gosu instantly, it takes time. Like improving your guitar technique takes a lot of time.
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On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
Definitely. Esport has a long way to go.
Thanks for the reply! Your responses were insightful and a pleasure to read. I also agree that ESports has a ways to go and more attention to detail in equipment (and hopefully better equipment as a result) is a step in the right direction. However, that also opens a whole new can of worms, namely using endorsing a brand or a model while using something else. Here's an example from tennis. In ESports, there's a picture of Rapha, one of the best Quake players ever using a WMO with a black paint job and a SS sticker despite being a part of SK gaming which is sponsored by SS. There was a picture in The Ultimate Mouse thread but there's no view all option now and Google wasn't helpful
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
I agree. But as of now a perfectly configured mouse simply is the state of the art. Things like Occulus and The Leap have the potential to change everything. But they aren’t there, yet. Further: they are much more suited for FPS than RTS.
That’s why mice will stick around for a few years to come …
I agree that sensitivity is much more than “how fast is my mouse”. I very much enjoyed reading your post. You have a deep understanding of how different aspects play together.
I hadn't considered other [future] peripherals when I made that statement. There are other things now like certain gaming gloves but I don't know if any of them will have an impact on RTS. Namely, in StarCraft you often don't look at the action you're actively performing which isn't possible with eye-tracking based equipment. You're probably right that these things are more suited for FPS because they often using "3D" physical motions (which correlate to 3D actions in-game) while RTS games are currently still "flat" and the linear motions of a mouse and keyboard are best suited for that kind of gaming environment.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
I agree.
Mouse pads sadly have a hard time in the RTS scene. I don’t know how often I’ve seen people proudly stating that they use their table or a peace of paper (and of course the infamous 5 € mouse and 10 € keyboard).
In addition to people not being aware of mouse pads being important, I think lesser known brands like Artisan are often overlooked in favor by bigger sponsoring brands like Razer and SS. I believe this is a mistake as Artisan makes some of the best pads in the market. Personally I've tried the Artisan Shiden-kai and Hayate and they really change the feel of my mouse. For example, I play SC2 on 1920x1080 and my Zowie AM-GS at 1150 DPI on the SS QcK felt slower than my Zowie MiCO at 800 DPI on the Artisan Shiden-Kai.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:Again, I agree.
I think palm grip is not the best choice for playing RTS. It may very well be for FPS. But when it comes to RTS I think fingertip grip is superior.
I believe for RTS it really boils down to most players preferring their pivots to be at their wrist rather than a specific grip type. This would mean that fingertip and claw are both commonly used. If you look at a lot of pro gamers (VODs of hand movements, live, etc.) they tend to pick up their pivot a lot which would suggest that most of them are either claw or fingertip with low sensitivity. The MiCO itself was designed with the claw grip in mind (at least according to them), and Flash definitely uses a claw grip. As previously mentioned, I believe the demands of the game really do drive the choices players make.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:3 months should be long enough of an experiment. -_- Lower CPI and a faster pad sounds good.
I felt it important to note that I spent a sufficient amount of time in trying a new setup out. People often try for only a week or a couple of days before giving up and not giving themselves enough time to adjust. I think we both agree that these things take time and commitment to really test out (although 3 months would probably be on the more 'thorough' side of the scale).
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:I think many people play RTS with high CPI out of two reasons:
- They think more CPI is strictly better. And if they are able to handle 4000 CPI they must be super gosu as opposed to someone who plays with low CPI.
- They think they will be significantly faster when using high CPI. It is of course true, that a mouse running with 4000 CPI moves four times as fast as a mouse with 1000 CPI. However: the 4000 CPI player has to move his mouse slower. Why? Because other wise he just couldn’t be precise enough. The 1000 CPI player on the other side can move his mouse faster to compensate for his low CPI. So it’s just as you said: “The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement.”
You are completely right, and I don't think I articulated that point clearly enough in my post. The flaw in many people's thinking is that they believe DPI is the primary means of adjusting their mouse speed. Higher DPI is faster from the perspective of physically moving your mouse a set distance, but it's possible to compensate for lower DPI by physically moving the mouse more, and faster. The increased physical movement of the mouse would mean the surface matters more, and therefore the mouse pad being a vital component.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
I like to call this «continuousness» or «seamlessness» (which sadly isn’t a proper word). This is really important when playing mouse speed games like Reflex on missionred.com, too. You can’t spam clicks. And if there are lots of targets efficient mouse movement is of prime importance. Further: you cannot get out of the zone, our your rythm. You have to keep your pace and avoid hiccups.
Concerning mousepads: I concur that mousepads with very low initial movement resistance are key for fingertip grip/RTS.
I agree. I hadn't considered mouse accuracy flash games like that (and I do play them, too). They are a great example of demonstrating the importance of all this as Mission Red is to the 100M dash (pure athletic competition) as StarCraft is to soccer (athletic competition with a large skill component).
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
How often would you have to lift off your mouse if your cursor is located in the upper right corner and you wanted to click on the mini map?
Personally for the me, it only took 1 flick and a mouse lift to get from corner to corner. Unfortunately, I returned my MiCO and the Shiden-kai because they had some defects that I was not satisfied with, so I couldn't give you a more detailed example. I've since switched to the Hayate mouse pad and my new MiCO should be arriving today. The flick/lift motion really does take getting used to if you came from just a fingetip/no pivot pick-up motion, but you do get greater granularity of control. If you watch any of the pro VODs in this and other threads, you should see the pro gamers use a small flicking motion right before lifting their mouse. I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) designed by Counter-Strike legend HeatoN. The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:This really is very advanced.
I think a lot of people have the notion that pros, particularly Korean pros "just do it" and don't really put much thought into out-of-game stuff. I've noticed this on some mouse enthusiast forums and even here on TL. This is all part of professionalizing the sport.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
I think it’s best to avoid sensor-based acceleration (ergo: avoid using mice with 9500/9800 sensors like the Xai, Sensei and some Logitech mice). On the other hand only 9500/9800 allow you to precisely set your CPI on a hardware level. Life isn’t fair …
I do agree it's generally best to avoid acceleration wherever possible. I've personally used the Xai for almost 2 years and felt that it was generally consistent (and avoided looking at too much information saying it was not, placebo effect) and I also see some pro gamers actually use products that are known to have acceleration issues. These things led me to conclude that it is possible to use them proficiently, but it is obviously not ideal. Cryo's post is interesting, and I think at it's core it just expresses a fundamental truth (even outside of this mouse context): inconsistency is bad, but if it's possible to consistently control that inconsistency, it can be managed. Being able to precisely set my DPI on a hardware level was one of the draws for me that led to purchasing the Xai and believing it was a requirement for future mice purchases. However, now I believe that DPI can get you to the 'general' range you want to be at and using a proper grip/pad to fine-tune is better. This would be especially true if you're really trying to optimize yourself for competitive play.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
I agree in that consistency is evil and has to be avoided. That’s why I don’t use a mouse with a 9500/9800 sensor. Even if 6 % acceleration doesn’t sound like much. It adds up.
So what’s your stand on polling? Do you prefer a polling rate which is always at 500 Hz or would you prefer polling which fluctuates between 600-900 Hz (therefore being faster but more inconsistent)?
From my understanding, polling is one of those things where it's generally believed that "higher is better" when in reality it's not an independent factor and having the "right" value is most important (which would mean it's not necessarily always 1000mhz). As I'm sure you're aware, certain mice jitter or get inconsistent with USB polling rates that are too high among other things. So personally, I'd rather much have the manufacturer have a clearly stated purpose (this mouse is designed for RTS games that have these set demands so we're going to make a product that specifically addresses them) instead of an all-rounder that just ends up being mediocre or worse because too many concessions were made in the name of versatility (and potentially marketing gimmick). I would of course prefer a polling rate that was consistent, even if it wasn't the fastest. As I understand it, a mouse with specific usage demands will require certain component decisions (limited by available technology) which would then necessitate a specific USB polling rate. Assuming that, I'd much prefer a "lower" and consistent USB polling rate that would maximize the rest of the mouse. If the technology improves and it's possible to have "faster" and "consistent", great.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:So you prefer claw grip over fingertip grip? Care to elaborate?
I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO. I honestly haven't been able to use the mouse enough yet to really decide on what feels best. Really, for me I'm not particularly set on a certain grip style and I'm more concerned about getting the best performance possible in-game. If that means swapping my setup, then so be it. That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On a side note, I believe a minimalist approach where it's simply plug and play (where less things can go wrong), is preferable for a mouse that is going to see a lot of tournament action. The Xai was intriguing to me before because it had the features to be extremely customizable, yet didn't require driver installations (more things that can go wrong) to do it. Unfortunately, issues with the on-board hardware (it wouldn't retain DPI sometimes) really highlighted to me that reliability trumped additional features (as it often does in products where reliability cannot be compromised: you don't want your gun to jam while you're in the middle of a fire fight in Afghanistan). As of now, the MiCO is the best thing on the market from what I've tried (which is admittedly a small sample) and read (much more than what I've sampled). I don't mean to advertise or anything, but I'm not one to shy from being candid.
On April 03 2013 23:40 dreamseller wrote:
This needs to be called out and discussed exhaustively. Exploding wrists are such a huge factor in pro and amateur gaming and it's my view that injuries of this nature if they cannot be avoided should prevent playing.
As pedantic as I can be, what I wrote is still a "best estimate" of what might actually be and I'm constantly revising it. I'm fairly confident that my construct is in the right direction, but I also don't know enough about the usage habits of Korean progamers. What I can say with certainty is that they are some of the highest usage groups in the world so therefore at the greatest risk of developing problems. It could be that playing for the better part of a day everyday for the better part of a decade just isn't good for you no matter how you do things. It could be that the demands placed on these progamers just to be competitive isn't healthy for the long-term. This wouldn't be the first time that something like this has been true in sports. Football has concussions, and gymnastics (especially women's) is a striking example of how competitive demands push the envelope so much for young athletes that there is an ever-increasing demand on skills that put ever-increasing stress on the body (which means that no matter how hard you train, your body can just be "done" with top level competition before you're 20). Maybe we'll look back on this one day and see this as the wild west days of ESports, but I do believe that increased scrutiny can lead to innovations that help the players (or at least have something to take care of them after they retire).
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United Kingdom20276 Posts
On April 04 2013 01:39 PanzerElite wrote:
I am so surprised that most people use very low dpi settings, like 800. I myself use 1700 and I just can't hit stuff with low speed anymore. Well I could but I really really dislike moving my whole arm. Just as with playing guitar I only use my wrists as a pivot. I didn't start out with high(er) speed settings, but thanks to Osu! I'm quite fast and accurate now with my settings. I'd say if you want to adapt to a new speed massing Osu! plays is ideal to create the muscle memory needed. But don't expect to be gosu instantly, it takes time. Like improving your guitar technique takes a lot of time.
I agree with this. I'd say 400 on 1920x1080 is "very low" though, and 600-1.2k is golden range on 1920x1080 if you want the best accuracy, precision, muscle memory etc, depending on tastes
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EPT
