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Refined Map Project - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Monta
Profile Joined September 2010
United States60 Posts
November 29 2010 17:49 GMT
#41
I think it should be changed so that the left ramp is the same as the right one, not vice versa, because it's already a zerg favored map. Looks good though.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
November 30 2010 01:47 GMT
#42
I've been informed that Thundertoss's weekly top 200 KOTH will also be using Refined Scrap Station. You can find out more about it at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160509
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
tgFringe
Profile Joined November 2010
United States10 Posts
December 01 2010 23:48 GMT
#43
Very good changes, I love them all. I wish that more of our map pool would undergo this kind of revision and testing, and I applaud you for your dedication and work.

Kudos.
tgFringe
Profile Joined November 2010
United States10 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 00:16:49
December 02 2010 00:13 GMT
#44
I just discussed this with a friend, but instead of changing the wall-in to favor the right hand side, why not revert the ramp movement, and move the entire mineral/gas node and start location CLOSER to the ramp, solving the issues it has with creep spread and Spine Crawler placement.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 00:37:08
December 02 2010 00:36 GMT
#45
On December 02 2010 09:13 tgFringe wrote:
I just discussed this with a friend, but instead of changing the wall-in to favor the right hand side, why not revert the ramp movement, and move the entire mineral/gas node and start location CLOSER to the ramp, solving the issues it has with creep spread and Spine Crawler placement.


A couple people have suggested this. It's not as simple as you might think.

Moving the minerals and start area is easy. However, you'd then have to cut area off of the back of the right main, in order to keep the same amount of distance between the mineral line and the back of the main.

That would reduce the size of the main (more than the other fix), so you'd have to add even more area somewhere else, which could create problems with hidden tech, drops, etc.

It would also mean you'd have to move the entire island, in order to keep the distance between the island and the two mains the same.

And even after that, you'd run into problems with some other things. For example, the distance from the start location to the natural expo, the thirds etc, are all identical, and the watchtower is already slightly closer to the righthand main. Moving the starting spot would unbalance all of that, and make the issue with the watchtower worse.

I think both ways fix the issue, and both could potentially cause new problems, but the change I did is by far the simpler one, and has the minimum amount of change involved with regard to the architecture of the map. I was trying to change the map as little as possible.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
December 03 2010 01:12 GMT
#46
The SPGL Weekly is now using Refined Scrap Station as well, check it out at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171033&currentpage=3
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
December 03 2010 05:41 GMT
#47
These changes all look very positive overall, and the biggest issue that I have faced as a P player was that walling off in the right position was so much more awkward than the left. It's looks like for the most part you've fixed it but now you can clearly see that the right position has sooo much more space behind the wall off, while the left position looks incredibly cramped in comparison. This can be critical for things such as cannons or tech buildings (When you don't have many pylons) and of course units. On the flip side, it looks to me like the right side has a lot more surface area for ranged units to attack your buildings (Especially the building closest to the added doodad).

TBH I can't immediately see any decent solution to this, as adding doodads to the left side to allow you to wall off further down would leave you very close to the destructible rocks (Unless I'm just crazy and looking at it wrong). Call this nitpicking but it is very very crucial in PvZ for any build that is not a 1 base all in (IMO).
BoomStevo
Profile Joined August 2010
United States332 Posts
December 03 2010 09:52 GMT
#48
I decided that this was a good idea, but it could be done a million times better. By simply mirroring one side of the map you'd get the same map yet it would be much more balanced.

So... I did it:
+ Show Spoiler [Mirrored Scrap Station] +
[image loading]

[image loading]

It took a couple hours, with most of the time taken to just fixing the doodads and textures. I also had to resize the map to make sure the symmetry was correct. It's actually slightly smaller, but since I mirrored it based on the line of symmetry, it increased the air distance between the mains.

I hope you like it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=158246 - My Maps
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
December 03 2010 09:56 GMT
#49
That's actually really cool Stevo.

Is it published? I'll totally romp around on it tomorrow.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
BoomStevo
Profile Joined August 2010
United States332 Posts
December 03 2010 09:59 GMT
#50
On December 03 2010 18:56 Ketara wrote:
That's actually really cool Stevo.

Is it published? I'll totally romp around on it tomorrow.

Published on US as "Mirrored Scrap Station"
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=158246 - My Maps
Niso
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia148 Posts
December 03 2010 10:12 GMT
#51
Wow that a really thought out and refined change, I really like these changes and have always noticed these things on the map, especially in ZvZ when the opponent gets left spawn.
I hope this map will be spread and eventually get to blizzard for a patch:D
GJ
Television version of a person
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
December 03 2010 17:32 GMT
#52
Okay so, Mr. BoomStevo

I played around on the mirrored Scrap this morning. These are my thoughts:

In terms of making it symmetrical and positionally balanced, it is obviously a severe improvement. The only two errors that I found were the ground level being a little bit messed up at the 2-gateway choke on the right hand side, and the island being very very slightly offcenter to the right. If you liftoff 2 CCs and send them to the island at the same time, the one on the right gets there about 1-2 seconds faster. The island is exactly centered in the Blizz version. It probably only needs to be shifted 1 square to the left.

It's definitely a good map with the changes you did. Likely better than the changes I made.


However, from the purposes of this Refined Map Project, I have two issues with it, which I will explain.

The first issue is that the mirroring change would inevitably change gameplay on the map. It does make the air distance between the two mains larger. You've also done it so there is much less air distance behind the back of the mains than in the original version, and both of these changes directly alter the effectiveness of air harass, which is generally a key feature of this maps strategy. The latter issue can be fixed by resizing the airspace, but the former likely cannot. The travel distance for the choke covered by rocks has been increased as well it seems, making the rocks less important.

These alterations may very well make it a better map, I don't know. But what I'm trying to do with this project is fix the spawn problems without altering the strategy of the map at all, so that players can jump right into it without requiring extra practice time, and tournaments can change to it without any sort of worry. Mirroring it in this way doesn't achieve that result.


The second issue I have with it is just in regards to the concept of an asymmetrical map in general. The Blizzard maps are likely asymmetrical for a reason. It's clearly much easier to copy paste and rotate than it is to create an entire map that looks symmetrical but really isn't. Blizzard had to make them the way they did for a reason, although I'm sure some people here will disagree with me on that.

And I think the reason for that is largely in terms of the maps visual appeal. Gameplay is always more important, but SC2 is a spectator sport, and the visual appeal of the map for the spectator is important too. When the exact same features and doodads are present on both halves of the map, it is pretty clear to the viewer. Even though it's identical architecture, when I jumped into the Mirrored Scrap I instantly became aware that it's just not as pretty as the Blizzard map.

You could mitigate that a lot by having the doodads on the opposite side be different shapes but the same sizes, to keep their gameplay factor the same but change their visual look. But I think at the end of the day it still wouldn't look as good, and Blizzard having spent time to create an asymmetrical map that looks fantastic and is ALMOST perfectly balanced positionally (with a few edits) is a worthwhile thing, and something that should be maintained.

Just my 2 cents.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
ch4ppi
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany802 Posts
December 03 2010 21:30 GMT
#53
I really hate to see so less love for this work. Only 3 pages of thankful comment

Here u have another one. THANK YOU
lac29
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1485 Posts
December 03 2010 21:34 GMT
#54
This is such a great project and I hope it gets more attention and participation.
Ascend
Profile Joined July 2010
United States120 Posts
December 03 2010 21:34 GMT
#55
Great changes, several of which I had no idea there was such imbalance about. Hoping someone chooses Scrap Station during tonight's Top 200 KOTH so we'll get to see it in action.
Caster and Software Developer. Releases: "Starboard" "SC2 Replay Sync" "SC2 Replay Chat Editor" "SC2 C# Replay Parser"
dimfish
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States663 Posts
December 03 2010 21:54 GMT
#56
On December 04 2010 02:32 Ketara wrote:
Okay so, Mr. BoomStevo

I played around on the mirrored Scrap this morning. These are my thoughts:

In terms of making it symmetrical and positionally balanced, it is obviously a severe improvement. The only two errors that I found were the ground level being a little bit messed up at the 2-gateway choke on the right hand side, and the island being very very slightly offcenter to the right. If you liftoff 2 CCs and send them to the island at the same time, the one on the right gets there about 1-2 seconds faster. The island is exactly centered in the Blizz version. It probably only needs to be shifted 1 square to the left.

It's definitely a good map with the changes you did. Likely better than the changes I made.


However, from the purposes of this Refined Map Project, I have two issues with it, which I will explain.

The first issue is that the mirroring change would inevitably change gameplay on the map. It does make the air distance between the two mains larger. You've also done it so there is much less air distance behind the back of the mains than in the original version, and both of these changes directly alter the effectiveness of air harass, which is generally a key feature of this maps strategy. The latter issue can be fixed by resizing the airspace, but the former likely cannot. The travel distance for the choke covered by rocks has been increased as well it seems, making the rocks less important.

These alterations may very well make it a better map, I don't know. But what I'm trying to do with this project is fix the spawn problems without altering the strategy of the map at all, so that players can jump right into it without requiring extra practice time, and tournaments can change to it without any sort of worry. Mirroring it in this way doesn't achieve that result.


The second issue I have with it is just in regards to the concept of an asymmetrical map in general. The Blizzard maps are likely asymmetrical for a reason. It's clearly much easier to copy paste and rotate than it is to create an entire map that looks symmetrical but really isn't. Blizzard had to make them the way they did for a reason, although I'm sure some people here will disagree with me on that.

And I think the reason for that is largely in terms of the maps visual appeal. Gameplay is always more important, but SC2 is a spectator sport, and the visual appeal of the map for the spectator is important too. When the exact same features and doodads are present on both halves of the map, it is pretty clear to the viewer. Even though it's identical architecture, when I jumped into the Mirrored Scrap I instantly became aware that it's just not as pretty as the Blizzard map.

You could mitigate that a lot by having the doodads on the opposite side be different shapes but the same sizes, to keep their gameplay factor the same but change their visual look. But I think at the end of the day it still wouldn't look as good, and Blizzard having spent time to create an asymmetrical map that looks fantastic and is ALMOST perfectly balanced positionally (with a few edits) is a worthwhile thing, and something that should be maintained.

Just my 2 cents.


I agree with Ketara here. Blizzard intentionally makes slightly asymmetrical maps, and they do a great job of obscuring the asymmetry to create good-looking maps. (How many times did you play Scrap Station before you realized it is actually quite asymmetrical? I didn't see it until I ran that pig through the map analyzer) It ultimately gives each spawn of a map its own personality. That said, I wholly support initiatives like this thread that address the worst problems of an otherwise cool map.

On a side note, BoomStevo, would your perfectly-reflected remake of Scrap Station be tighter by air and address Ketara's concerns if you mirrored the other spawn? Just a mental exercise. :oP

Anyhow, I'm of the opinion that many other TL'ers have expressed that little asymmetries are generally not worth player's designing specific strategies for (if I spawn here and he spawns there I'll do this wacky build, etc). Let me say thanks to Ketara again for trying to find the version of Scrap Station that is both eye-candy and good for competitive play. And this thread is a great resource for dedicated mappers that want to better understand what asymmetries are acceptable.
MuteZephyr
Profile Joined August 2010
Lithuania448 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-03 22:10:13
December 03 2010 22:09 GMT
#57
Wow, I didn't even notice many of those differences.
Major props to you mate! People need to spread the word about these kind of problems.

The only way to get Blizzard to listen is through massive unrelenting QQ (Ex: chat channels, I mean do we really want chat channels? :D ).
I don't Micro, I FEMTO. That's 9 orders of magnitude more extreme.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
December 03 2010 22:33 GMT
#58
Somewhat late notice, but the Hyper Crew Open #7 is also going to be using Refined Scrap Station. I just saw the confirmation now, sorry about that.

Tourny starts in 30 minutes! - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172296
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
December 04 2010 16:40 GMT
#59
Added Refined Metalopolis to the list of tournament ready maps :D
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
IumSpechul
Profile Joined October 2010
United States17 Posts
December 04 2010 17:24 GMT
#60
I really appreciate the time and effort it takes to fine tune these. I'm sure others can, as well.

Here's hoping for more recognition and success for your valuable efforts.
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