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On March 17 2013 03:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 03:05 Andr3 wrote:On March 17 2013 02:59 Gradius wrote:When it was said in WoL that the Overmind was corrupted it wasn't a retcon, it was an expansion of lore, however good or bad. No, it was definitely a retcon. Zeratul touched minds with the Overmind and looked at its origins in SC1, and none of this mental imprisonment nonsense was mentioned. If I remember correctly, during the Zerus missions, if you talked to Abathur he tells Kerrigan his concerns about how the beasts on Zerus have already assimilated the essences of the zerg, and thus have been able to replicate their units on the battlefield. It makes sense considering how the primal zerg operate (acquiring the essence of other beings). It actually makes no sense considering how primal zerg operate. They lack a hive mind, so how exactly did they "steal" the essence of creatures on planets over thousands of light-years away? This entire "primal zerg" concept is ill-inconceived. Nothing was mentioned about the numerous species the Overmind knew, or the knowledge it possessed of Xel'naga either, lack of information doesn't necessarily mean retcon. Zeratul after all only mentions a part of what he gained from touching with the Overmind's mind. What does hive-mind have to do with the assimilation of species? Which creatures do you talk about? The ones you see in the in-game mission(which for the purpose of lore shouldn't even be looked at) are "stolen" from Kerrigan when she lands on Zerus, Abathur mentions this and is kinda surprised by how fast they did it. The problem is that, according to the campaign, when Primal Zerg steal essence, an individual incorporates the essence and mutates with it. They don't operate as a unified mind (contrary to the original SC manual), and so they don't have a way or motivation to spread essence among them. How do the Primal Zerg then steal the essence of Roaches/Hydras and produce them in mass numbers? This would require a massive number of Primal Zerg all killing normal Zerg individually and mutating individually. It's just lazy and poorly done.
You're applying what you see in an in-game mission to lore...why?
If you're designing a mission are you really going to make sure stats/number of units/whatever stand correct with the projection of lore?
Do you know how many plot holes are then in every game we've ever played?
I think it's time to discuss why mutas can fly in space again ._.
EDIT: And even IF we ignore common sense and apply what we see in the missions to the lore, it's still plausible that they would assimilate as much essence as they did. Kerrigan after all has a lot of army backing her up, for every hydra you make imagine they eat one, huehue.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 17 2013 02:08 jubil wrote:
I don't remember who or where it was, but I recall someone pointing out that the plot of Starcraft is not science fiction at all (which Raynor says outright near the end of WoL), but a western, complete with the cowboy walking off into the sunset with the girl in his arms. Well, HotS just turned out to be a darker western, with the tragic hero obsessed with revenge at any cost. If you look at it in this light, not expecting much depth but rather an archetypical story with a sci-fi flair, I found it to be not so bad.
There were a few moments when I was pretty disappointed - ie. how they handled Narud and Stukov. No indication of the rich personal history between the two, or between Narud/Duran and Kerrigan, and frankly Narud didn't really come across as ominous/threatening as he did in the SC:BW secret mission, and there didn't seem to be any linkages between his work then and how he came to be in a Dominion lab.
and a few where I was pleasantly surprised - nearly all of pre-re-infested Kerrigan, the cinematic confrontation between Warfield and Kerrigan, and the characterizations/interactions with Zagara and Abathur. By the end of the campaign I actually thought the way they handled Abathur was quite good - subtly funny.
Now, if they REALLY wanted emotional depth, I think they should have spent a little more time on Kerrigan's deliberations to become re-infested. It was a little rushed, and left a bit of "damn, so why did I go to all that trouble in WoL??" taste in my mouth. But, I was not really expecting that much depth...
The bit where Abathur recommends 'immediate assimilation into opposing swarm' or whatever the exact words were, was really, really well done and funny I thought. Easily best character in the game.
Narud loses a ton of his ominousness without his accent 
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On March 17 2013 03:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 02:08 jubil wrote:
I don't remember who or where it was, but I recall someone pointing out that the plot of Starcraft is not science fiction at all (which Raynor says outright near the end of WoL), but a western, complete with the cowboy walking off into the sunset with the girl in his arms. Well, HotS just turned out to be a darker western, with the tragic hero obsessed with revenge at any cost. If you look at it in this light, not expecting much depth but rather an archetypical story with a sci-fi flair, I found it to be not so bad.
There were a few moments when I was pretty disappointed - ie. how they handled Narud and Stukov. No indication of the rich personal history between the two, or between Narud/Duran and Kerrigan, and frankly Narud didn't really come across as ominous/threatening as he did in the SC:BW secret mission, and there didn't seem to be any linkages between his work then and how he came to be in a Dominion lab.
and a few where I was pleasantly surprised - nearly all of pre-re-infested Kerrigan, the cinematic confrontation between Warfield and Kerrigan, and the characterizations/interactions with Zagara and Abathur. By the end of the campaign I actually thought the way they handled Abathur was quite good - subtly funny.
Now, if they REALLY wanted emotional depth, I think they should have spent a little more time on Kerrigan's deliberations to become re-infested. It was a little rushed, and left a bit of "damn, so why did I go to all that trouble in WoL??" taste in my mouth. But, I was not really expecting that much depth... The bit where Abathur recommends 'immediate assimilation into opposing swarm' or whatever the exact words were, was really, really well done and funny I thought. Easily best character in the game. Narud loses a ton of his ominousness without his accent
Yes, I think many will agree that Abathur was the most original/best character in the game.
I was hoping that, in the end, Nerud was going to revert back into the appearance of Samir Duran (and back to his old ominous accent), and at the same time engage in some sort of dialouge with Kerrigan about how he was under her nose the entire time and how he used her for his own ends etc. Instead, he changed into the 'old' Sarah Kerrigan... Really disappointing :/
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 17 2013 00:39 DidYuhim wrote:
I find it really sad that so many people liked the story of HotS.
Blizzard did a lot of advertisement about their campaign, they said a lot of things about how HotS will be better than WoL and how the plot is based around the emotions of the main characters, how Kerrigan tries to understand the Zerg, how she is torn apart by guild of her using Zerg to rid the world of couple billion of people. I had my hopes up to have a good plot that will keep me entertained for a few re-runs of the campaign.
What I got was a result of 11 year old's literature abortion styled around "how I spent my summer". Storyline can be summed up in about ten sentences. Voice acting for Kerrigan was horrible, the emotional depth in both writing and acting is non-existant.
I miss the original VA for Kerrigan everytime the new one opens her mouth =[
There's a bunch of voices they actually managed to make worse not just VA wise but like, effects wise.
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On March 17 2013 03:13 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 03:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:
By doing that, it just shows that you're trying to be an obnoxious snob that wants to be right about something, even if you can't be right about anything that matters. Look, I told you right away my point wasn't what you thought it was. And I told you repeatedly that it was a small point. That you now want to criticize me for your reading comprehension failure is quite amusing. If you want to talk about something more substantive, why don't you respond to my response to your claim that Abathur disregarding humans is a retcon?
My reading comprehension was fine. You were just screaming, "I'm right! I'm right!" about something completely inconsequential to the entire discussion (including the point that I was making), and I wasn't responding to it because it was, well, inconsequential.
I didn't address that because you were right; I just read about it in the manual, remembered that Abathur mentioned it, and forgot about his response.
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Nothing was mentioned about the numerous species the Overmind knew, or the knowledge it possessed of Xel'naga either, lack of information doesn't necessarily mean retcon. Zeratul after all only mentions a part of what he gained from touching with the Overmind's mind.
This is straight from SC1:
"Indeed. When I slew the Cerebrate on Char, I touched briefly with the essence of the Overmind. In that instant, my mind was filled with its thoughts, and I tell you now our worst fears have come true.
The Zerg were indeed created by the ancient Xel'Naga, the same beings that empowered us in our infancy. But the Overmind grew beyond their constraints, and has at last come to finish the experiments they began so long ago."
No dark voice. It's a retcon. Saying that it's just "lack of information" is like saying that Raynor is a shapeshifting space-teletubby with magical powers, and you can't prove that he's not.
What does hive-mind have to do with the assimilation of species? Which creatures do you talk about?
The ones you see in the in-game mission(which for the purpose of lore shouldn't even be looked at) are "stolen" from Kerrigan when she lands on Zerus, Abathur mentions this and is kinda surprised by how fast they did it.
Ah ok, that makes more sense. I guess I'm confused because you fight roaches and hydralisks in the very first mission as soon as you land on the planet. So...what, did they slaughter a vast portion of our army and steal their essence behind our backs? Abathur tells you that only after the 1st Zerus mission.
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I don't like anyone posting how objectively bad the story is - implying that if you liked the story you must be an idiot because it's measurably terrible. This story, like all others, are subjective and based on opinion. I'm sure that if you're a big fan of the lore, there are things that don't make sense or that were obviously retconned. I am aware that the story is, for the most part, predictable and corny/cheesy - that's somewhat inherent to love stories in my opinion. Regardless, I enjoyed the story and I enjoyed the game, I'm sad for a lot of people that they either expected so much more, or are going to be critical regardless because that's cool - to shit on things instead of liking them despite their flaws.
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On March 17 2013 04:13 Salv wrote:
I don't like anyone posting how objectively bad the story is - implying that if you liked the story you must be an idiot because it's measurably terrible. This story, like all others, are subjective and based on opinion. I'm sure that if you're a big fan of the lore, there are things that don't make sense or that were obviously retconned. I am aware that the story is, for the most part, predictable and corny/cheesy - that's somewhat inherent to love stories in my opinion. Regardless, I enjoyed the story and I enjoyed the game, I'm sad for a lot of people that they either expected so much more, or are going to be critical regardless because that's cool - to shit on things instead of liking them despite their flaws.
All this discussion leads to is
"You're wrong because you're expectations are too high or you want to criticize just because you're a hater"
vs.
"You're wrong because you just don't understand what good writing is or you'll sympathize and try to rationalize the story despite all of its flaws because you are an irrational fanboy"
Which leads to absolutely nowhere.
The fact is that there are some reasonably objective standards by which we can critique writing. HotS fails on every count. The fact that people have to do such extensive backflips to make the story merely consistent, let alone good, means that it has failed.
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But it is lack of information.(as far as explanation goes)
It could be anything, from Zeratul merely not sensing Amon's influence, being unable to sense its influence(as it is an xel'naga)..
Spoiler is from one of the Q&A's from Blizzard's lore series.
+ Show Spoiler +Question: Raynor and Zeratul had a vision. We learned it was the Overmind's and that it showed the future (or a possible future). But how and why did the Overmind have this vision in the first place?
Answer: The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice.
It's entirely plausible that Zeratul merely couldn't scrap together any of Amon's influence due to numerous factors. Maybe not strong enough psionically, being a protoss, or just that none of those thoughts were clear. It's all speculation at this point, but I don't see how it is retcon.
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This story, like all others, are subjective and based on opinion.
If that were true then Homer and Shakespeare would be indistinguishable from pure garbage. It would also mean that publishers would approve everything submitted to them, since it's all subjective anyway.
What about classes where they teach you to become a better writer? Is it just a waste of time where you twiddle your thumbs?
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On March 17 2013 04:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:
My reading comprehension was fine. You were just screaming, "I'm right! I'm right!" about something completely inconsequential to the entire discussion (including the point that I was making), and I wasn't responding to it because it was, well, inconsequential.
I'm right! I'm right!
All I was doing was preventing you from telling me I was wrong about something I wasn't arguing.
No dark voice. It's a retcon. Saying that it's just "lack of information" is like saying that Raynor is a shapeshifting space-teletubby with magical powers, and you can't prove that he's not.
He said "my mind was filled with his thoughts". Maybe he wasn't thinking about it in that instant. It's not like the influence was a constant voice in his mind.
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On March 17 2013 04:19 Andr3 wrote:But it is lack of information.(as far as explanation goes) It could be anything, from Zeratul merely not sensing Amon's influence, being unable to sense its influence(as it is an xel'naga).. Spoiler is from one of the Q&A's from Blizzard's lore series. + Show Spoiler +Question: Raynor and Zeratul had a vision. We learned it was the Overmind's and that it showed the future (or a possible future). But how and why did the Overmind have this vision in the first place?
Answer: The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice. It's entirely plausible that Zeratul merely couldn't scrap together any of Amon's influence due to numerous factors. Maybe not strong enough psionically, being a protoss, or just that none of those thoughts were clear. It's all speculation at this point, but I don't see how it is retcon.
Something else to consider from the Q&A:
+ Show Spoiler +One either has free will, or one does not. But if one does not, there are degrees of non-free will. The Dark Voice put the Overmind in charge of the Swarm, which meant the Overmind needed broad latitude in its thinking: discretion, the ability to make choices, and long- and short-term planning. Flexibility. It could not be an automaton. So, did the Overmind have free will? No, because the Dark Voice put parameters on its thinking. It could not flat out consider rebellion, for instance. If it tried, iron-clad controls would clamp down. There were compulsions it had to follow in certain situations. The Overmind, determined to do what it could for the Swarm, found the cracks, the barely permissible choices that it could make—the moves that would not activate the controls but which it hoped could eventually free the zerg from the Dark Voice's control. In turn, this would let the zerg evade the fate the Overmind had seen in its vision.
And to clarify something that I've seen widely misinterpreted, the Overmind did not create the Queen of Blades to save the galaxy, the Koprulu sector, or anything besides the zerg. The Overmind saw a vision in which the zerg were used to kill the protoss, and only the fact that the zerg were slaves bothered it. The end of that vision showed all the zerg being sucked dry by hybrid. It represented the destruction of the zerg, and that was what the Overmind wanted to prevent. It wished to move the Swarm out from the Dark Voice's control to save the zerg—and only the zerg. The Overmind would have been happy to see the zerg consume every other species in existence.
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On March 17 2013 04:20 Gradius wrote:If that were true then Homer and Shakespeare would be indistinguishable from pure garbage. It would also mean that publishers would approve everything submitted to them, since it's all subjective anyway. What about classes where they teach you to become a better writer? Is it just a waste of time where you twiddle your thumbs?
But if it is objective and if the quality of the story is easily quantifiable in terms of how "good" it is, then wouldn't it be very easy to make insanely good stories? Just get a few good writers on every movie/game/book and $$
It's a mixture of both, most people in my experience seem to think that if the use of typical tropes is above average than the story starts to suffer more.
EDIT: Daniri, that gives me hope. Crush Amon/whatever than proceed to eat the terran&protoss. Zerg are hungry!
I don't think we'll go the way of WC3. There's Zagara which Kerrigan teaches a lot(leads me to believe that maybe Kerrigan will die eventually DUN DUN DUN), and Niadra which has the directive to destroy all protoss still.
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What are you people not getting about this line:
"The Zerg were indeed created by the ancient Xel'Naga, the same beings that empowered us in our infancy. But the Overmind grew beyond their constraints, and has at last come to finish the experiments they began so long ago."
How convenient is it that Amon's entire backstory is ignored in the one segment that explicitly touches on it? If the Overmind was actually "raging in the prison of his own mind" then Zeratul, Kerrigan, or the Cerebrates would have picked up on it. It's a retcon. Stop being pure denialists and just admit it already.
Furthermore, the word "retcon" has a broad range of definitions, and can include any change whatsoever that alters the audience's perception of something, of which this definitely qualifies. Saying that it's "lack of information" is blatant dishonesty. They could retcon Raynor in SC3 to be the second coming Jesus Christ and justify it as "lack of information".
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On March 17 2013 04:13 Salv wrote:
I don't like anyone posting how objectively bad the story is - implying that if you liked the story you must be an idiot because it's measurably terrible. This story, like all others, are subjective and based on opinion. I'm sure that if you're a big fan of the lore, there are things that don't make sense or that were obviously retconned. I am aware that the story is, for the most part, predictable and corny/cheesy - that's somewhat inherent to love stories in my opinion. Regardless, I enjoyed the story and I enjoyed the game, I'm sad for a lot of people that they either expected so much more, or are going to be critical regardless because that's cool - to shit on things instead of liking them despite their flaws.
If you liked the story, why in the world would you be so upset about people venting reasons for not liking it?
If you (1) don't care if the story is good/bad and enjoy the game either way, or (2) feel justified in the thinking the story is good, why are you so outraged about people arguing for why it's bad? Either you should not care or you should have counter-arguments.
Also, who's criticizing it because it's "cool"? :/
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just finished the campaign. definitely continued the WoL standard of having dull story with one or two things happening and elementary-school-level dialogue
and (ending spoilers)
+ Show Spoiler +... why is the final mission just a breaking down of mengsk's front door... wouldn't it make sense to have the player kill him themselves? rather than watch a cutscene of it? one of the best moments of SC1/BW was you killing fenix and duke
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On March 17 2013 04:28 Gradius wrote:
What are you people not getting about this line:
"The Zerg were indeed created by the ancient Xel'Naga, the same beings that empowered us in our infancy. But the Overmind grew beyond their constraints, and has at last come to finish the experiments they began so long ago."
How convenient is it that Amon's entire backstory is ignored in the one segment that explicitly touches on it? If the Overmind was actually "raging in the prison of his own mind" then Zeratul, Kerrigan, or the Cerebrates would have picked up on it. It's a retcon. Stop being pure denialists and just admit it already.
Furthermore, the word "retcon" has a broad range of definitions, and can include any change whatsoever that alters the audience's perception of something, of which this definitely qualifies. Saying that it's "lack of information" is blatant dishonesty. They could retcon Raynor in SC3 to be the second coming Jesus Christ and justify it as "lack of information".
None of Amon's influence was clear, concise.(as this debate it seems...)
Why would cerebrates or Kerrigan pick up on it if they were under the influence of Overmind(and perhaps indirectly under Amon's?)
And Kerrigan does make a mention of it in one of the Zerus missions I believe. That she felt something dark but wasn't quite sure what, which is interesting because Overmind specifically created her to elude Amon's reach.
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On March 17 2013 04:13 Salv wrote:
I don't like anyone posting how objectively bad the story is - implying that if you liked the story you must be an idiot because it's measurably terrible. This story, like all others, are subjective and based on opinion. I'm sure that if you're a big fan of the lore, there are things that don't make sense or that were obviously retconned. I am aware that the story is, for the most part, predictable and corny/cheesy - that's somewhat inherent to love stories in my opinion. Regardless, I enjoyed the story and I enjoyed the game, I'm sad for a lot of people that they either expected so much more, or are going to be critical regardless because that's cool - to shit on things instead of liking them despite their flaws.
Somewhat is the important word here I guess. Do you really believe that ? It's no wonder we are still making movies and writing books about love, the subject is impossible to exhaust.
+ Show Spoiler +
Les Liaisons dangereuses, The Idiot, The Master and Margarita, Swann and Odette and Marcel and Albertine in In Search of Lost Time, L'Education sentimentale for books. The Ghost and Mrs Muir, Sunset Boulevard, City Lights, Gilda, Jules and Jim, Sunrise, Summer with Monika, Contempt, A Woman under the Influence, The Barefoot Comtessa, Annie Hall for movies.
Where is the predictable and cheesy in those ?
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On March 17 2013 04:28 Gradius wrote:
Furthermore, the word "retcon" has a broad range of definitions, and can include any change whatsoever that alters the audience's perception of something, of which this definitely qualifies. Saying that it's "lack of information" is blatant dishonesty. They could retcon Raynor in SC3 to be the second coming Jesus Christ and justify it as "lack of information".
If there's some definition of retcon out there that fits your argument, then fine. The only one I use is that a retcon is changing previously established lore, or contradicting it with new lore. Something that changes the audience's perception I'd call a revelation, speaking of Jesus.
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I actually really liked the story in HotS. I liked how it progressed and I especially like how, in contrast to WoL, every mission felt like it was a part of the story (except for pointless upgrade missions). In WoL the Tosh missions or the side missions really felt sort of like side missions that padded the length whereas in this game the missions flowed into one another very well.
The only real complaint I have about the story is that the protoss expansion is going to feel really forced at this point. So far this has really been all about terran and zerg (and the tal darim) with zeratul occationally popping in to give key advice every now and then so having an entire expansion devoted to protoss is going to feel really awkward considering the story so far has basically centered aroud both Kerrigan and Raynor for two games.
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EPT
