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Spades retires from Western Wolves - Page 23

Forum Index > SC2 General
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This is not the place to argue whether or not spades hacked, do that in the relevant thread please.

(this is in effect page 10 onward)
Maekchu
Profile Joined February 2011
140 Posts
June 05 2012 22:17 GMT
#441
On June 06 2012 07:15 MVega wrote:
Love all the talk about "Man up" or taking the "coward's way out." - It's a video game, not a murder trial or a fight to the death. Holy shit.


Yeah, why try to keep our COMPETITIVE games hack free? People should just be allowed to hack with no consequences. It's just a game after all... -.-
mrtomjones
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada4020 Posts
June 05 2012 22:19 GMT
#442
On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote:
Spade haters? Is there anything to love?

Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.

Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.

Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now.
hnQ
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
113 Posts
June 05 2012 22:20 GMT
#443
So he left his team with good motive, still isn't conclusive that he hacked and you guys still go bandwagoning? NICE
Attero
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada271 Posts
June 05 2012 22:20 GMT
#444
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.

I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.

Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.

The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.

This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.

The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
Retired SC2 Professional | The Beaver Show | twitch.tv/OmniAttero
philly5man
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom356 Posts
June 05 2012 22:21 GMT
#445
On June 06 2012 07:00 mrtomjones wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 06:59 philly5man wrote:
Wouldn't leave if he were innocent. Defo cowards way out.

lol You need to get your understanding beyond the high school level. He WOULD leave even if he was innocent. In fact it salvages his reputation slightly with other teams if he can prove innocence because he put the team before his own self.


Congratulations, you were fooled by his coward's way out statement. Just the fact that he hasn't categorically denied cheating is enough to suggest that he was. This whole 'leaving the team to salvage their reputation' is no more than a way of avoiding the actual issue, and hoping people forget about him quickly.
TBone-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2309 Posts
June 05 2012 22:21 GMT
#446
On June 06 2012 07:12 Roggay wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote:
I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.

Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream.
Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?


Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.
Eve online FC, lover of all competition
mrtomjones
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada4020 Posts
June 05 2012 22:21 GMT
#447
On June 06 2012 07:17 Maekchu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:15 MVega wrote:
Love all the talk about "Man up" or taking the "coward's way out." - It's a video game, not a murder trial or a fight to the death. Holy shit.


Yeah, why try to keep our COMPETITIVE games hack free? People should just be allowed to hack with no consequences. It's just a game after all... -.-

Yah lets talk about something completely different than he is and make some ridiculous statement and generalization that he never even suggested.

For those saying he didn't handle it well. He is NOT a pro athlete with a publicist and tons of help in how to deal with it. He is you, or me, and not many people in his position would handle this with the skill that everyone on the outside looking in thinks he should.

For those calling him a coward because he is leaving his team... he had no choice.. educate yourself before calling people a coward. People in these situations very often lose a lot even if innocent. Also.. he made lots of posts defending himself.. what part of that is cowardice?
Maekchu
Profile Joined February 2011
140 Posts
June 05 2012 22:22 GMT
#448
On June 06 2012 07:19 mrtomjones wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote:
Spade haters? Is there anything to love?

Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.

Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.

Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now.


My point still stand that whether or not he is innocent in this specific issue. It has already been proven he have cheated in the past. How many chances should a person get? I simply don't understand people supporting a person like this.
Roggay
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland6320 Posts
June 05 2012 22:23 GMT
#449
On June 06 2012 07:21 TBone- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:12 Roggay wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote:
I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.

Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream.
Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?


Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.

Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word).
And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion.
MVega
Profile Joined November 2010
763 Posts
June 05 2012 22:24 GMT
#450
On June 06 2012 07:21 mrtomjones wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:17 Maekchu wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:15 MVega wrote:
Love all the talk about "Man up" or taking the "coward's way out." - It's a video game, not a murder trial or a fight to the death. Holy shit.


Yeah, why try to keep our COMPETITIVE games hack free? People should just be allowed to hack with no consequences. It's just a game after all... -.-

Yah lets talk about something completely different than he is and make some ridiculous statement and generalization that he never even suggested.

For those saying he didn't handle it well. He is NOT a pro athlete with a publicist and tons of help in how to deal with it. He is you, or me, and not many people in his position would handle this with the skill that everyone on the outside looking in thinks he should.

For those calling him a coward because he is leaving his team... he had no choice.. educate yourself before calling people a coward. People in these situations very often lose a lot even if innocent. Also.. he made lots of posts defending himself.. what part of that is cowardice?


Thank you. That's exactly what I meant.
bumkin: How can you play like 50 games per day... I 4gate 2 times then it's nap time
mrtomjones
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada4020 Posts
June 05 2012 22:24 GMT
#451
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.

I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.

Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.

The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.

This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.

The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.

Nice post Attero. Hope that more people see this and think about how this was handled.
petered
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1817 Posts
June 05 2012 22:25 GMT
#452
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.

I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.

Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.

The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.

This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.

The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.


I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.

Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
This, my friends, is the power of the Shikyo Memorial for QQ therapy thread. We make the world a better place, one chainsaw massacre prevention at a time.
TBone-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2309 Posts
June 05 2012 22:25 GMT
#453
On June 06 2012 07:23 Roggay wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:21 TBone- wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:12 Roggay wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote:
I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.

Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream.
Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?


Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.

Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word).
And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion.


Because they dealt with it for like 10 years man. They know what to look for.
Eve online FC, lover of all competition
hnQ
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
113 Posts
June 05 2012 22:26 GMT
#454
On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.

I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.

Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.

The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.

This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.

The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.


I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.

Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.


because this is not highschool level mindset, this damages his rep, doesn't matter if he's innocent, and he was actually noble (assuming he is innocent) in leaving WW to save their reputation.
NachiMe
Profile Joined November 2011
250 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-05 22:26:55
June 05 2012 22:26 GMT
#455
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.

I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.

Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.

The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.

This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.

The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.


Do you think he hacks all the time? It's entirely plausible that he only hacks during tournaments and such.
mrtomjones
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada4020 Posts
June 05 2012 22:27 GMT
#456
On June 06 2012 07:22 Maekchu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:19 mrtomjones wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote:
Spade haters? Is there anything to love?

Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.

Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.

Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now.


My point still stand that whether or not he is innocent in this specific issue. It has already been proven he have cheated in the past. How many chances should a person get? I simply don't understand people supporting a person like this.

TT1 wanted more games to be analyzed and thought that this sample size was way too small to make a judgement. People should pay more attention to what he says lately. He also said that he would not be surprised if someone kills themselves over the hate/mob type posts that are on websites like this. Sometimes I think that people don't really think through what they are saying online. Most wouldnt say the same things offline. Idra said on real talk? the other day that no one comes up to his face and says he sucks and such. Would love to see this website move even more away from a Reddit atmosphere.
Crowned
Profile Joined August 2011
United States368 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-05 22:29:05
June 05 2012 22:27 GMT
#457
Edit: not the place for this reply.
It's cool to love to win, but it's better to hate to lose.
Roggay
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland6320 Posts
June 05 2012 22:29 GMT
#458
On June 06 2012 07:25 TBone- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:23 Roggay wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:21 TBone- wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:12 Roggay wrote:
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote:
I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.

Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream.
Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?


Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.

Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word).
And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion.


Because they dealt with it for like 10 years man. They know what to look for.

TT1 WAS a hacker, I think he knows better what to look for honestly. And I really don't see why you would say that they have dealt with this for 10years? You think others did not?...
UniquE.
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada143 Posts
June 05 2012 22:29 GMT
#459
Personally even if he didn't cheat in this showmatch. His teammates calling him out and even team owner saying he stream cheats is enough for me. Once a cheater always a cheater, is the way I look at it. I know its harsh but He cant be trusted and his past should blackball him in every event. I don't believe in second chances when it is competitive play for money. This is my opinion playing in the OHL for over 5 + years while I was younger.
Prplppleatr
Profile Joined May 2011
United States1518 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-05 22:33:37
June 05 2012 22:29 GMT
#460
On June 06 2012 07:25 petered wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.

I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.

Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.

The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.

This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.

The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.


I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.

Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.


He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.

Great post attero, ty for saying it (completely agree). And indications of hacking does NOT = hacking, innocent until PROVEN guilty, not indicated.
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