EPT[D] High Level Zerg. Hatch first or Pool First? - Page 2
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
Hatch first. | ||
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Benshin88
United States183 Posts
On October 29 2010 02:48 Enervate wrote: If you're asking whether high level zergs hatch first or pool first, it's pretty easy to find the answer just by watching high level zergs play. Hatch first. You understand that there are 2 styles of playing Zerg. FE or 1 base. It's a 50/50 split IMO amongst upper level zergs. In lower leagues, everybody FE... I play some custom games when i'm off racing w/ terran or toss so i know what low level diamond players do. On the other hand high level players have like a 50/50 split. My friend does 1 base he's ~ 1900 while i usually attempt to FE. I've seen a couple 2000+ streams where they FE and some that don't IE Steven (aka) Destiny. I just want the opinions from the people that do pool first. Watching replays/ streams can not give you an answer. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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Benshin88
United States183 Posts
On October 29 2010 02:58 Ksyper wrote: Depends on your style if you ask me. I want to be a complete player so i want to know ALL styles. | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
On October 29 2010 02:51 Benshin88 wrote: You understand that there are 2 styles of playing Zerg. FE or 1 base. It's a 50/50 split IMO amongst upper level zergs. In lower leagues, everybody FE... I play some custom games when i'm off racing w/ terran or toss so i know what low level diamond players do. On the other hand high level players have like a 50/50 split. My friend does 1 base he's ~ 1900 while i usually attempt to FE. I've seen a couple 2000+ streams where they FE and some that don't IE Steven (aka) Destiny. I just want the opinions from the people that do pool first. Watching replays/ streams can not give you an answer. What the hell are you talking about. Everyone FE as Zerg, except in ZvZ. If you go 1 base you do a all-in or some wierd thing. ZvZ not included. | ||
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Bowdy
United States232 Posts
On October 29 2010 02:51 Benshin88 wrote: You understand that there are 2 styles of playing Zerg. FE or 1 base. It's a 50/50 split IMO amongst upper level zergs. In lower leagues, everybody FE... I play some custom games when i'm off racing w/ terran or toss so i know what low level diamond players do. On the other hand high level players have like a 50/50 split. My friend does 1 base he's ~ 1900 while i usually attempt to FE. I've seen a couple 2000+ streams where they FE and some that don't IE Steven (aka) Destiny. I just want the opinions from the people that do pool first. Watching replays/ streams can not give you an answer. You understand that you're wrong. I <3 destiny, you probably see me modding his chat all the time, but all upper level zergs (as in tournament results) FE. I'll agree that there's two styles of FE, speedling expand and straight up FE, but if you think 1 base zerg is viable vs competent P's/T's you're sadly mistaken. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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Benshin88
United States183 Posts
On October 29 2010 03:27 Bowdy wrote: You understand that you're wrong. I <3 destiny, you probably see me modding his chat all the time, but all upper level zergs (as in tournament results) FE. I'll agree that there's two styles of FE, speedling expand and straight up FE, but if you think 1 base zerg is viable vs competent P's/T's you're sadly mistaken. What i meant by 1 base was hatch after pool... I should have said Pool first hatch 2nd. | ||
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Bowdy
United States232 Posts
What i meant by 1 base was hatch after pool... I should have said Pool first hatch 2nd. Got ya :p yeah i agree then | ||
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orcslayermac
United States138 Posts
15 hatch 14 pool on extremely large maps, 14 hatch 13 pool on smaller maps. I know this one zerg player that is experimenting with a double extractor 12 hatch 11 pool that actually seems pretty solid vs relatively fast rushes. These are all vs T and P. I've been very surprised at how much aggression can be held off even when 15 hatch 14 pool goes down. You just can't do it when being proxied etc... | ||
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Zorkit
Canada66 Posts
On October 29 2010 02:58 Ksyper wrote: Depends on your style if you ask me. i completely agree with this. I find pool first works well if you enjoy playing it safe or for earlier aggression while hatch first works well to secure you a stronger econ. In general as zerg, you're gonna wanna expand rather "early" anyways. Most of the time, if youre not FE-ing, you're expanding at around 20-30 supply. 1base play is mostly considered all-in. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On October 29 2010 02:48 Enervate wrote: If you're asking whether high level zergs hatch first or pool first, it's pretty easy to find the answer just by watching high level zergs play. Hatch first. Troll ? If not ban plz, we don't want ignorant ppl. On October 29 2010 00:56 Benshin88 wrote: I remember watching a stream of Steve (aka Destiny) he said that pool first/ delayed hatchery was better on ANY MAP. He tried to test this with another zerg player but in the end both economies were very similar. Only way to get the real answer somebody needs to do a systematic test to both builds. He's right. I've already tested multiples times. The only downside about going pool first is maybe the lack of creep you get from the 2nd hatch to have sunkens placed on better positions. Economy's wise, it's exactly the same. Why is that ? Because you get the 1st queen way earlier than the hatch first assuming you go for a pool first hatch 2nd at 15-16-17 supply. Still i'd rather get pool first because of so many opening you can get. Hell i'd not mind at all to have 1 or 2 less drones overall if i go 2nd hatch at 20 supply. On October 29 2010 01:45 zeidrichthorene wrote: Going Hatch first at your nat means your hatchery is established before any strong timing pushes can be executed. It's pretty tough to apply enough pressure to force a cancel on a 14 hatch in general. A later hatch is easier to stop because the other races have a chance to get their production established. A bunker shouldn't be able to block a 14 hatch, because your hatch will be going down before a barracks finishes. A bunker rush next to your hatch can be expected, but that can be stopped with drone and ling control. Hello supply ? Hello barrack ? Hello engineering bay ? Bunker isn't the only option to delay FE you know. Whatever. I'm upset at ppl following blindly what progamers do without even experiencing themselves or asking why they're doing it. And for the sake of being called an idiot keep in mind i've 1850+. So gogo bash. I've did some screenshots about the hatch first vs pool first build, the idea was to get 40 drones for each bases, lemme find this topic... >_< Edit : Can't find it T_T The search result has been kinda shortened or am i doing it wrong ? Can't find my older's posts which were probably like in the july or august's time... Basically either one of these build had a little advantage over the other about economy but in the end it was exactly the same. Can't remember which one though. I really can't find this topic  | ||
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voss
Australia146 Posts
On October 29 2010 10:28 RaiZ wrote: Troll ? If not ban plz, we don't want ignorant ppl. He's right. I've already tested multiples times. The only downside about going pool first is maybe the lack of creep you get from the 2nd hatch to have sunkens placed on better positions. Economy's wise, it's exactly the same. Why is that ? Because you get the 1st queen way earlier than the hatch first assuming you go for a pool first hatch 2nd at 15-16-17 supply. Still i'd rather get pool first because of so many opening you can get. Hell i'd not mind at all to have 1 or 2 less drones overall if i go 2nd hatch at 20 supply. Hello supply ? Hello barrack ? Hello engineering bay ? Bunker isn't the only option to delay FE you know. Whatever. I'm upset at ppl following blindly what progamers do without even experiencing themselves or asking why they're doing it. And for the sake of being called an idiot keep in mind i've 1850+. So gogo bash. I've did some screenshots about the hatch first vs pool first build, the idea was to get 40 drones for each bases, lemme find this topic... >_< Thank you for posting this - my thoughts exactly. I don't understand why people are 'discussing' about the economy difference when there is none. There are several things to discuss, not economy related. hatch first will: - give you creep at the nat - give you a higher hp (albeit un-cancel-able) structure for defending a well timed push - delay lings - delay queen #1 - show fast expand very early on - earlier queen #2 (slightly) pool first will - give you queen #1 earlier - give you lings eariler (if required) - delay creep at nat - possibility of denying scouting - delayed queen #2 (slightly) These are the differences. I have a question regarding this:- due to the fact that you get 2nd hatch up faster, you are producing more 'energyless' larva (larva that doesn't take energy to produce). Does this mean you can squeeze in an extra creep tumor with hatch first? Or the fact that your queen comes out earlier in pool first, allowing for more energy regen, offset this? | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Finally, you can keep your opponent guessing more. Again, its in no WAY just for the economy, you can get the same or better economy by going with an early pool. This is pretty evident if you guys start going early hatch on ZvZ, cause you will fin that you CAN GET outmacroed by an early pool. Hope i made it clear this keyboard is awful. (not on my pc) | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
link to my first reply: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164575#14 It did some weird shit and managed to shave off one second. The goal was to get 50 drones and 4 lings as fast as possible, no other restraints. The fastest build was 6:17 where it went for a very early third hatch and 3 queens. But that's only one second faster than the build I already posted earlier in this thread. 10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0 10 Overlord M:100 G:0 13 Queen M:153 G:0 16 Hatchery M:305 G:0 17 Overlord M:108 G:0 19 Queen M:202 G:0 22 Overlord M:103 G:0 35 Overlord M:327 G:0 36 Overlord M:489 G:0 36 Queen M:605 G:0 39 Overlord M:405 G:0 40 Queen M:255 G:0 45 Zergling M:286 G:0 49 Zergling M:199 G:0 50 Overlord M:149 G:0 Should we consider opening 10pool into expand every game? I will most definitely give it a shot. | ||
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eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
I am only in high silver, winning and losing vs gold players atm. I have gone 15 hatch, 16 pool or so for most of my games. But I'm not sure it is worth the risk, maybe because of me rising in level (only laddered 20-25 matches or so, since changing to zerg for a challenge). But that early queen you get with pool first, and hte faster lings, I might be more comfortable with that unless the map is large. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
Hatch first is a very greedy opening. Forces Protoss 2 pressure. Pool first is a way better opening, because of mindgames. | ||
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pwncakery
Canada131 Posts
In ZvT I'm going 15 hatch/16 pool, with ZvP I'm going pool first because of the chance of getting cannon rushed/hatch blocked. To avoid getting walled in against terran you can patrol a drone at the base of your ramp at 17 food or a little before 3 minutes. fwiw I'm in master league. | ||
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