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Don´t sweat it. We have no hint why Krashe died.
Look at it this way: It is entirely possible that we have a doctor. It is entirely reasonable that said doctor is going to protect either me, you or someone of the other actives.
They chose to kill the guy with the horrible read on the reds, Karshe.
Then it makes sense, doesn´t it?
Now if that way of thinking is right, the only question is who does think prplhz or palmar get protected and why.
And my first line "I thought about claiming cop...." was nothing in particular.
Before this I only played on epcimafia and the sc2 map, both of which only last for an hour or so and revolve heavily around power roles. In both games claiming cop is viable for everyone, townies, scum, real cop, I even saw a doctor claiming cop once.
It is incredibly risky of course.
It´s still better than saying "hello everyone" in my book.
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Addendum:
They prolly chose Karshe because his horrible read makes him the least likely target for the doctor.
And that´s kinda ok, since I would lynch our doctor if he went out of his way and protected the least important/active/good looking people.
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No offense intended, Karshe.
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I'd like to say first that this game is incredibly interesting for as few active players as are in it.
Karshe died a terrible death at the hands of some crafty fellows. First, here is every post (save a few fluff posts that literally had no content...if someone calls me out for "Is there a seperate voting thread?" or something equally irrelevant I'm going to be very angry) that Karshe made in the game up until he cast his vote for Skrammen d1. Posts are in spoilers, summaries under spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 00:56 Karshe wrote:
Good morning all.
First post here, I have caught up with the thread.
As others have said, there's no real reason to suspect Mataza yet. The majority of us are fairly new to the game, and Mataza making the first "quality" post shouldn't be considered suspicious. The only thing to watch for is scum posting general tips/math to gain town cred while not actually helping our hunt. And yes, I realize I could qualify under that last statement. =P
Looking forward to scum hunting with you all. Hopefully we'll get lots of posts today and get to know everyone.
Very reasonable.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 01:53 Karshe wrote:Inactives are a mixed bag for me. I agree that lynching them isn't the wisest choice because there's a low chance they are mafia... but inactives also irritate me to no end. I understand that RL > TL and things come up, but why join the game if you're not going to play? It just ruins the spirit of the game for me and I have low tolerence/patience for inactives. That said, hopefully we're discussing this for no reason and we'll hear from everyone today. 
I like this guy already...and I already miss him.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 13:37 Karshe wrote:I am most definitely not getting mod killed, thank you. Just had a busy monday, and when I was on earlier, there weren't too many quality posts yet. I've got caught up, and here are my thoughts. I am most suspicious of Mataza right now. I wouldn't go as far to vote him, yet, but I have my reservations. Since this is openly a noobie game, this was my first thought going into the game: Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:56 Karshe wrote:
The only thing to watch for is scum posting general tips/math to gain town cred while not actually helping our hunt. And yes, I realize I could qualify under that last statement. =P
and this was one of Mataza's first posts: Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 12:16 Mataza wrote:
Small math problem.
12 day1
ly nk
10 day2
ly nk
8 day 3
ly nk
6 day4
So scum is forced to lay really low, if they ever want to stand a chance. To newer players to the game--myself somewhat included--this sounds like a foreign language and some may think, "Man, he knows what he's talking about... I better listen to what this guy has to say." I propose that was Mataza's intention for posting the math so early on. Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:49 Mataza wrote:
I am curious what these various questions. So far I only gathered one:
"Tell us why you´re/you´re not mafia!"
I very well might be mafia, as everyone of you might be mafia too. But I can´t go ahead and tell you my plans before half the people posted, because then these plans wouldn´t work.(Since mafia would know what to do or what not to do.)
About the inactives:
Dependant on the number of inactives, it´s not a bad idea to lynch them.
Low activity means they aren´t really helping the town and therefore it´s not a big loss. We wouldn´t lose any amount of discussion.
But we can´t do that right now, because a) the day isn´t nearly over and b) there are too many.
But people who do not post/do no vote are modkilled at the end of the cycle. One of Mataza's next longer posts, which can be summarized to rephrasing things that have already been said I would argue that even for a noobie game, a lot of this is stating common sense. Yes, we know you could be mafia. That's how the game works. I feel this is another example of gaining town cred while not actually contributing. It looks as though my main argument was also noticed by Giygas (to give credit where credit is due): Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 15:52 GiygaS wrote:
Mhm, and you've also mentioned the Mafia's purported strategy, which is to stay under the radar. Something you haven't done. If you wanted someone to go off the path of finding the mafia, you would say that the strategy they would perform would be completely opposite to what you were doing. Also, you were the first one to make basic rules to know HE IS THE MAFIA. I believe that Mataza attempted to put an early notion into newer players heads that mafia will attempt to lay as low as possible, while he himself is a mafia and one of the most active posters. My initial gut feeling thus far is that Giygas is town. I feel as though he has done a great job at generating discussion without having done anything I can point out as shady. I haven't made a decision on VisceraEyes yet, for now he is an active poster and I would personally rather lynch an inactive compared to a helpful/active poster on Day 1, if that's what it comes down to. Sorry to wrap this up short but I haven't eaten dinner yet. I will check in before bed for updates.
First actual content post. Mostly suspicious of Mataza. Misread on GiygaS. Still not sure on VisceraEyes.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 01:14 Karshe wrote:I see no reason we should worrying about the game set up on Day 1, since we have no way of knowing what game type we're playing. I, too, questioned Mataza's early cop claim, but was hesitant to bring light to it. I'm not sure I buy your reasoning, and there's always LAL (lynch all liars). I'm not convinced you're mafia yet, but I'll be keeping an eye on your posts. Taking a look at others, I am growing increasingly suspicious of Palmar. Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:54 Palmar wrote:
I'm more worried about the quiet people, it's only been 13 hours or so, but we're still missing half the town in the action.
If people don't post people don't make mistakes. So please type in a few sentences so we know you're alive Getting easy town cred while not really contributing and just saying, "where is everyone?" Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:50 Palmar wrote:
Why would it take effort to create a first post? Even if you say something completely retarded it's fine as long as you have nothing to hide. Barring revealing a blue power role, anything you say in your first post will just be that... a simple first post.
Not contributing. Then, his most eye raising act, he then takes it upon himself to defend Mataza, the town's biggest point of discussion, while pointing a completely random finger away from Mataza. And I mean, he really defends Mataza. My only concern is if both Mataza and Palmar were scum, Palmar wouldn't be defending Mataza so blantantly (and oddly). I'll be keeping an eye on your posts as well. To finish with: I am still not sold on Gigyas being scum, but it may be at this point that I'm just taking Mataza's posts with a grain of salt. I will re-read Gigyas' posts in a bit with an open mind.
Suspicious of Palmar, restatement of suspicion of Mataza
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 01:21 Karshe wrote:Also, I wanted to say, Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 22:04 Palmar wrote:
@purplehaze... you're an idiot, but you're not scum, or at least you're not an obvious scum. There's no need for that. This a openly a noobie game, many of us are still learning the ropes... there's no need for name calling. All it will do is discourage further posting and create a negative atmosphere. We're all here to have fun lynching mafia, right?
What a stand-up guy...
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 03:27 Karshe wrote:Hi Skrammen, We're glad you were able to make it, but we need you to post more information. If you're thinking you will not be able to play as a result of real life, you can request a replacement. Otherwise, we will need you to post more analysis and not just bandwagon... or you risk being lynched as a result of being a non-helpful townie.
Warning to Skrammen.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 05:18 Karshe wrote:Not enough discussion today, getting worried. To reiterate what Palmar has said, Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:23 Palmar wrote:
But I'd rather have to filter through tons of bad information injected by mafia, than having no information at all and just playing a guessing game. and my own stance on Day 1: Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:53 Karshe wrote:
Inactives are a mixed bag for me. I agree that lynching them isn't the wisest choice because there's a low chance they are mafia... but inactives also irritate me to no end. I understand that RL > TL and things come up, but why join the game if you're not going to play? It just ruins the spirit of the game for me and I have low tolerence/patience for inactives.
I have a low tolerance for inactive players. I am still very suspicious of Mataza, but I would much rather have him in the game and posting consistantly compared to someone who posts once in this thread and once in the vote thread. Lynching an inactive poster may not give us very much information on Day 2, but I believe it will help us in the long run because we will have more information to dissect from active players in future days. So, my intetion is to vote for an inactive as we get closer to night time. I'm allowing more time for those inactive to post some analysis, or request a replacement.
Keepin it real. No surprises.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 07:22 Karshe wrote:
As for my vote, I still intend to vote for an inactive for reasons I've already stated, but I wanted to give as much time as possible to allow for them to speak up.
I feel like we've got some scum lurking and waiting to put in a last minute vote to bandwagon whoever the town has decided on.
More statement of intent to lynch inactives.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 08:21 Karshe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:41 Mataza wrote:
Karshe may have jumped on the bandwagon so late that it passes by unnoticed, but he said he sounded sure Giygas is town and I am mafia.
After he noticed the bandwagon was dead, he instantly dropped suspicion on me and now wants to lynch inactives. By now I am pretty sure that no mafia is inactive, but instead very outspoken. I haven't bandwagon'd anyone, including you. I still have suspicions that you are mafia, I have not dropped anything at all. However, what I have said is: Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 05:18 Karshe wrote:
I have a low tolerance for inactive players. I am still very suspicious of Mataza, but I would much rather have him in the game and posting consistantly compared to someone who posts once in this thread and once in the vote thread.
Lynching an inactive poster may not give us very much information on Day 2, but I believe it will help us in the long run because we will have more information to dissect from active players in future days.
I would rather vote an inactive who isn't contributing anything to the fun/game at all, rather than someone (you) who I believe to be shady but at least is actively participating. I have already stated why: we may have less information on Day 2, but more information in the future. To answer purplehaze's question from earlier, if I had to pick a Day 2 lynch right now, it would be Mataza. I feel like you're trying to derail every lynch attempt, and you yourself have said: Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:01 Mataza wrote:
Common sense: Active mafia will try to disrupt town conversation. I still question your motives as well. So far you have been quoted as saying "Mafia will try to lurk!" while being the most active poster, and now you're saying, "Mafia are bandwagoning! By the way, I have never bandwagoned!" *wink wink nudge nudge* I am about to leave for work, I will vote for an inactive in 30 minutes when I get home if they have not posted yet.
Defending his decision to Mataza, reinforcing his suspicion in the process. At this point I'm surprised he never FoS'd Mataza.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 09:05 Karshe wrote:
As I have been indicating all day: voting Skrammen, who has been inactive for the majority of the game except for a single bandwagon post which helped nothing.
##Vote: Skrammen
The inactive he ultimately chose.
It doesn't take but a quick glance to notice a theme. Obviously he was targeted by the mafia for being to harsh on inactives! Wait.....no............
He was suspicious of Mataza the entire day! He never let up on him, not even after I released my FoS from him. Also was suspicious of Palmar, but only posts once so I can't speak to the intensity of his suspicion.
....to be continued...
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Now allow me to muse for a while.
Mataza has possibly the strongest stance in the town. He single-handedly (with the help of some votes from his friends) rid the town of the awful scum GiygaS. He's one of the most active posters in the game. He has a fanclub whose president is Palmar.
I have one of the weakest. I broke under pressure. I've been making horrible reads and outrageous accusations throughout d and n 1. My only ally against my main opponent at the beginning of d1 was GiygaS. I......touch myself at night.
Now...hang with me here.
Mafia chose to kill Karshe. They CHOSE him. They weren't limited by doubt. It's true, there could still be a doctor or cop or both in this game. But between Mataza and myself, doctor was preoccupied. So they eliminated the next biggest threat. Not prplhz who was suspicious of me. Not Palmar who was suspicious of DeepBlu2. Certainly not stefftastiq, the inactive. They chose Karshe. Why? Because at the end of the day, he was the only one left standing against Mataza.
This might come as a shock to many of you, and I can assure you, Karshe dying came as a shock to me. But I suspect that Mataza is playing us all like a freaking drum. I think it's been part of his plan all along to position himself into a leadership role by sacrificing one of his own so he can, unfettered, pick us off during the day as well as night.
FoS: Mataza
My next guess is that either Mataza or his scum buddy will claim cop. Be VERY wary of this.
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Now the town is in a precarious position. Do they trust in their "hero" Mataza? Do they lynch the very savior of Day 1? I say to you now that there will be attempts to discredit me. Palmar's defense is obviously dismissal. He likely won't even comment on my accusation as it's not worth his time. I suspect Mataza will fiercely defend himself as he did Day 1. But keep this in mind always. It made no sense for Mafia to murder Karshe unless he was onto something. He was moderately active, but as far as the general flow of town, was mostly unhelpful in taking down GiygaS. The only reason I can find in his posts is his opposition to Mataza.
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This is the best post you've created in the thread so far VisEyes. I will refrain from quoting Karshe as to not increase the length of the thread uselessly. I want to have a look at the Karshe-s death from a slightly different angle.
Your post analyses: What did Karshe say that could've gotten him killed
I will now analyse: What does Karshe's death accomplish for the mafia
The state of the town:
After GiygaS got lynched last night, there was an interesting situation in the town. We got a correct lynch on the first day, but sadly, the mafiosi that got lynched was pretty much... insane.
Let's have a look at how this death affects the active players:
VisEyes:
Karshe was on his short-list of suspects. Viseyes still strongly suspects me (Palmar) and Purplehaze. It is interesting to note that Karshe was not the only target VisEyes and Mataza agreed on. They also agreed that Purplehaze was suspicious.
Did the mafia intend to break up the combination of VisEyes/Mataza?
Mataza:
Currently Mataza is pretty well trusted in the town. If he's playing mafia then he's at least being very subtle about it. But he was very convinced Karshe was mafia during the night. Mataza also fos'd purplehaze during the night.
Did the Mafia want to discredit Mataza by proving him wrong?
Purplehaze:
Purplehaze was the one that sealed the deal on the GiygaS kill. This is important because no matter the fact that it could be a bluff, it should give him some credibility. Karshe's death did not change much for Purplehaze aside from the fact that he is now the prime suspect agreed upon by VisEyes and Mataza
Did the mafia want to set Purplehaze up?
Palmar:
As for myself, I got fos'd by Karshe early in day1. I was the only active player along with Karshe that did not vote to kill GiygaS. Mataza had already cleared me of his suspicions, but Karshe's death proved that he was wrong there. I am not stupid, thus I can clearly see all the arrows pointing towards myself at this point.
Did the mafia want to set me up?
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And here is the big thing. Karshe was all for lynching and pushing inactives. Please note the pattern that Karshe's death discredited every active player in town. The more I think about it the more I understand what a brilliant way of causing confusion in the town it was to kill Karshe.
Just imagine what you can do with one night-kill
Discredit Mataza
Break up Mataza/VisEyes
Paint a target on Purplehaze
Paint a target on Palmar
I'd take this opportunity with open hands if I was the mafia.
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@Palmar
Oh, in my excitement, I forgot one thing.
I retract my FoS: prplhz. The more I read Karshe's posts, the more of prplhz I got to read too. While his switch WAS suspicious, his reasoning for it appeared to be logical and sincere. I assume he still suspects me and I'll have some 'splaining to do later on...but I no longer suspect him. Just thought I'd correct you there.
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Right, sorry.
My analysis still stands.
I would like to see how Karshe's death has negatively affected the following players:
Wunder
Hiro Protagonist
Nard
Stefftastiq
DeepBlu2
Skrammen
Truth to be told. We know very little about them. I am going to try to find time to analyse each and every one of those during the coming day.
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Shouldn't take long. That's the long list of inactives. 
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Here is the thing VisEyes.
Your theory is based on the assumption that the night kill was simply used to kill whomever was the biggest threat to the mafia at the point.
While essentially correct, it's such obvious logic to do that. The mafia knows, just as well as we do, that if player a FOS player b, and then player a dies during the night, player b immediately comes under suspicion.
Like... it's inevitable.
If Karshe FoS's Mataza and myself, and then he dies. Isn't it obvious that both of us will immediately be under fire from the town?
Put yourself on the other side. If someone accused you in day1 and you were mafia. Wouldn't you think killing him was a bit too obvious? Wouldn't you think that as soon as he died people would go back and read all his posts, only to find that he was going after you?
I don't buy it. Karshe's death was no accident. It was carefully chosen to cause maximum confusion in the town.
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On May 19 2011 19:05 VisceraEyes wrote:Shouldn't take long. That's the long list of inactives.
Do you not see why I have a problem with that? Do you not understand why it bothers me to no end that we don't have any information to go on?
How on earth will we prove those guys scum, when nothing of value has been said?
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I took a cue from Palmar and tried to figure out what Karshe's death accomplished for the mafia.
What I found was the obvious. My initial reaction. While I can't in good conscience retract my FoS: Mataza[red] due to the striking evidence I uncovered...I'm forced to reopen my original scumlist and FoS: prplhz and Palmar.
From my perspective, either Palmar and Mataza as my latest theory posits are working together or [red]Palmar and prplhz are working together as my previous theory posits.
Because it's impossible yet to determine which is the case, there is a common element which is clear at this moment.
##Vote Palmar
I'd like to hear from Mataza and hear what he has to say.
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Suddenly my straw houses aren't so inconsequential...it's funny how that works out.
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Do you really wanna go back and have a look at your arguments from day one? Do you remember that big post you created against purplehaze? Your main argument in this post was that he agreed with Mataza.
I wasn't suspicious of Purplehaze at the point, but I really wanted clarification on why he asked for a doctor protection out of nowhere?
Your argument at this point is:
Purple defended Mataza = Purple Scum
I defended Mataza = Palmar Scum
Mataza Defended me = Mataza Scum
One thing is pretty damn sure, not all of us are scum.
Thing is, you can read whatever you want from any of the three of us. You can go back and find "scummy" stuff from any of us. Hell, I can go back and find scummy stuff on you. But I don't think you're scum. I just think that you tunnel-vision way too much on the few people actually playing the game.
What you cannot do is find "scummy" stuff from everyone else playing this game.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
I may have stepped too deep here, the level of analysis is quite mindboggling. I'd love to contribute, but I'm not sure how or where to start, even after reading a lot of the newbie guides... One thing that can be said though is that VisEyes, Palmar and Mataza are all very active, and I do believe at least one of them is Mafia.
Sadly, I don't have much proof and I'm not sure how all of you guys have to time to sift through and analyze everyone's posts :< what does FoSing someone actually do, other than make your suspicions more concrete?
I will try to monitor this situation more, but I think a lot of my opinions are siding with VisEyes right now, though I'm not sure why.
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It's only considered tunneling if people are offering up reasonable and logical alternatives and the person in question isn't seeing them or doesn't care.
I have nothing more to go on, so I'm not tunneling. I'm working with what I have. Which is considerable.
If you want to get really technical, my main problem with prplhz was A) He tried to discredit me saying I pulled a 180 where Mataza was concerned, stopped focusing on him and voted for an inactive. In the VERY SAME POST he proclaimed that he himself was no longer suspicious of Mataza and that he would, in all likelihood, cast his vote for an inactive. Not only that, but that post was very VERY vague on where he stood where Mataza was concerned...he said that it was bad that people stopped focusing on him, but then in the same breath said that he was no longer suspicious of him. When I tried to call him out on it, that's when you did your little drama about the PRs and how uncareful he is and how useless I am. B) He scum-switched at 9:59. I don't care that he did it and ultimately landed on a scum. The point is he, along with 5 others, decided together that the best lynch for the night was inactive Skarrem...and at 9:59 he betrayed those he sided with and chose to lynch GiygaS, an active player. C) General scumminess. This is less prominent and is ultimately subjective, so I won't try and explain that...it's in the eye of the beholder obviously.
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FoS = finger of suspicion
If I FoS you I'm letting it known that I believe you're mafia.
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@Wunder
FoS means you suspect someone, and you're showing the whole town. You're flying your finger flippantly forward with frenetic fervor.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
@Palmar: But what does that entail? Does it just mean that everyone knows you think that X is mafia? Is that all it does?
Also, I agree with VisEyes that all his calls, though a bit irrational, are somewhat based from the information in front of him. I do think that purplehaze could be suspicious, and that him and the other mafioso turned GiygaS in, in an attempt to throw a few people off their tail. I currently have my eye of both Palmar and PurpleHaze
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EPT
