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On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer.
Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death.
-COPD
-Asthma crisis
-Pneumonia
-Bladder cancer
-Upper digestive tract cancer
-Gastric cancer
-Esophagus cancer
-Acute heart infarction
-Congestive heart failure
-Acute cerebral stroke
-Deep vein thrombosis
-Pulmonary thromboembolism
-Upper respiratory tract infection
-Uterine cervix cancer
-Low birth weight
-Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise)
-Dyslipidemia
-Arterial hypertension
-Obstructive arterial disease
-Aortic aneurysm
-Intracerebral bleeding
-Subarachnoid hemorrhage
-Kidney cancer
-Osteoporosis
-Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction
-Decreased estrogen in females
-Pancreatic cancer
-Atherosclerosis
-Chronic kidney disease
-Worsening of diabetic nephropathy
-Alzheimer's disease
-Tuberculosis
Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers.
"About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers.
Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit.
The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports.
TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why.
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Obesity causes more deaths and more wasted money on medical expenses than smoking in this country.
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i'd like to propose a ban on harley riders.
i think it fits all the requirements, right?
(potential hearing loss, potential fatal distraction, exhaust and noise pollution, etc.)
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On May 24 2011 09:54 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer. Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death. -COPD -Asthma crisis -Pneumonia -Bladder cancer -Upper digestive tract cancer -Gastric cancer -Esophagus cancer -Acute heart infarction -Congestive heart failure -Acute cerebral stroke -Deep vein thrombosis -Pulmonary thromboembolism -Upper respiratory tract infection -Uterine cervix cancer -Low birth weight -Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise) -Dyslipidemia -Arterial hypertension -Obstructive arterial disease -Aortic aneurysm -Intracerebral bleeding -Subarachnoid hemorrhage -Kidney cancer -Osteoporosis -Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction -Decreased estrogen in females -Pancreatic cancer -Atherosclerosis -Chronic kidney disease -Worsening of diabetic nephropathy -Alzheimer's disease -Tuberculosis Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers. "About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers. Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit. The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports. TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why.
no one is arguing smoking isn't bad.
where is the evidence that says short term exposure to outdoor SHS is bad?
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On May 24 2011 08:46 BroodjeBaller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:44 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:33 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:28 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:23 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:19 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:17 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 07:57 Egyptian_Head wrote:On May 24 2011 07:54 BroodjeBaller wrote:
Smoking is the most useless and retarded activity to ever exist.
Its smells horrible, its bad for your health in so many ways, its bad for your looks, its expensive. There are no benefits.
It should be banned everywhere and all cigarette companies should be closed. You feel the same way about alcohol? Alcohol doesnt smell horrible, its not bad for your health(and other peoples health) if you take it in moderation, its not bad for your looks. Ow and the smell of smoking is not something temporary. Its stay in your clothes(untill you wash them), it stay in your car, it stays in your house, its horrible. So no I dont feel the same way about alcohol. This has got to be the most idiotic post I've seen this week. Why? Because you are a smoker I guess? Because it's complete bullshit to say alcohol doesn't have an odor. Ever talk to anyone when they are drunk and you are sober? Ever seen the victim of a drunk driver after they can ran over cause someone had a night on the town? Ever had a friend puking their guts out over a toilet bowl and you found that attractive? Your post just fails on so many levels. Learn to read I never said alcohol doesnt have an odor. It doesnt smell as horrible as smoking and the range of the smell is much much smaller. I also said drinking in moderation so dont come with your drunk driver bs. Again learn to read. Moderation doesn't make anything addicting better for you nor does it make one better to do than the other. Alcohol is still poison. It's still destructive. Just like smoking. So my point still stands regardless of how you word anything. No alcohol actually has positive effects when you take it in moderation. Smoking is bad even when you take it in moderation.
Those are all myths. You can still cause harm to your body even under the guidelines by the AMA. There is much more research needed to really understand any benefits from alcohol. I take them with a grain of salt. Your are still taking poison into your body regardless of usage.
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On May 24 2011 09:54 oo inflame oo wrote:
Obesity causes more deaths and more wasted money on medical expenses than smoking in this country.
one major problem at a time?
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On May 24 2011 09:57 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:46 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:44 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:33 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:28 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:23 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:19 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:17 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 07:57 Egyptian_Head wrote:On May 24 2011 07:54 BroodjeBaller wrote:
Smoking is the most useless and retarded activity to ever exist.
Its smells horrible, its bad for your health in so many ways, its bad for your looks, its expensive. There are no benefits.
It should be banned everywhere and all cigarette companies should be closed. You feel the same way about alcohol? Alcohol doesnt smell horrible, its not bad for your health(and other peoples health) if you take it in moderation, its not bad for your looks. Ow and the smell of smoking is not something temporary. Its stay in your clothes(untill you wash them), it stay in your car, it stays in your house, its horrible. So no I dont feel the same way about alcohol. This has got to be the most idiotic post I've seen this week. Why? Because you are a smoker I guess? Because it's complete bullshit to say alcohol doesn't have an odor. Ever talk to anyone when they are drunk and you are sober? Ever seen the victim of a drunk driver after they can ran over cause someone had a night on the town? Ever had a friend puking their guts out over a toilet bowl and you found that attractive? Your post just fails on so many levels. Learn to read I never said alcohol doesnt have an odor. It doesnt smell as horrible as smoking and the range of the smell is much much smaller. I also said drinking in moderation so dont come with your drunk driver bs. Again learn to read. Moderation doesn't make anything addicting better for you nor does it make one better to do than the other. Alcohol is still poison. It's still destructive. Just like smoking. So my point still stands regardless of how you word anything. No alcohol actually has positive effects when you take it in moderation. Smoking is bad even when you take it in moderation. Those are all myths. You can still cause harm to your body even under the guidelines by the AMA. There is much more research needed to really understand any benefits from alcohol. I take them with a grain of salt. You are correct, the entire a glass of wine a day is better for your health myth is only based on a observational study for example.
Edit: Discussing on TL till' 3AM when you have school the next day, wohoo  Too fun not to though.
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On May 24 2011 09:58 RickOrShay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:54 oo inflame oo wrote:
Obesity causes more deaths and more wasted money on medical expenses than smoking in this country. one major problem at a time?
or just leave everyone the fuck alone?
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I would be so pissed, let people do whatever the fuck they want, give fines for throwing cigs on the floor, aside from that, smoking is bliss.
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On May 24 2011 09:56 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:54 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer. Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death. -COPD -Asthma crisis -Pneumonia -Bladder cancer -Upper digestive tract cancer -Gastric cancer -Esophagus cancer -Acute heart infarction -Congestive heart failure -Acute cerebral stroke -Deep vein thrombosis -Pulmonary thromboembolism -Upper respiratory tract infection -Uterine cervix cancer -Low birth weight -Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise) -Dyslipidemia -Arterial hypertension -Obstructive arterial disease -Aortic aneurysm -Intracerebral bleeding -Subarachnoid hemorrhage -Kidney cancer -Osteoporosis -Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction -Decreased estrogen in females -Pancreatic cancer -Atherosclerosis -Chronic kidney disease -Worsening of diabetic nephropathy -Alzheimer's disease -Tuberculosis Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers. "About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers. Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit. The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports. TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why. no one is arguing smoking isn't bad. where is the evidence that says short term exposure to outdoor SHS is bad?
You should read the posts quoted... but anyways... just pulled out of my ass:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440792/
http://www.bmj.com/content/315/7114/980.abstract
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/111/20/2684
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1440-1843.2003.00453.x/full
It took me less than a minute to find these four... all in respectable publications, and just a VERY small sample of the INSANE amounts of evidence available. Of course you can't just take these and instantly interpretate them as truth. However, the point stands, there IS scientific evidence, lots of it.
One more thing, cigarette effects are cumulative, which means if people smoke in my environment, even for small amounts of time, through the years I will be progressively damaged by it. I don't know what you define as "short term exposure", but it doesn't really matter. A little every day for many years is likely to cause me tons of trouble.
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On May 24 2011 09:56 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:54 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer. Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death. -COPD -Asthma crisis -Pneumonia -Bladder cancer -Upper digestive tract cancer -Gastric cancer -Esophagus cancer -Acute heart infarction -Congestive heart failure -Acute cerebral stroke -Deep vein thrombosis -Pulmonary thromboembolism -Upper respiratory tract infection -Uterine cervix cancer -Low birth weight -Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise) -Dyslipidemia -Arterial hypertension -Obstructive arterial disease -Aortic aneurysm -Intracerebral bleeding -Subarachnoid hemorrhage -Kidney cancer -Osteoporosis -Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction -Decreased estrogen in females -Pancreatic cancer -Atherosclerosis -Chronic kidney disease -Worsening of diabetic nephropathy -Alzheimer's disease -Tuberculosis Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers. "About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers. Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit. The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports. TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why. no one is arguing smoking isn't bad. where is the evidence that says short term exposure to outdoor SHS is bad?
Effect of Secondhand Smoke on Occupancy of Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptors in Brain.
Brody AL, Mandelkern MA, London ED, Khan A, Kozman D, Costello MR, Vellios EE, Archie MM, Bascom R, Mukhin AG.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21536968
Cigarette smoking saturates brain alpha 4 beta 2 nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.
Brody AL, Mandelkern MA, London ED, Olmstead RE, Farahi J, Scheibal D, Jou J, Allen V, Tiongson E, Chefer SI, Koren AO, Mukhin AG.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16894067
can't help you if you don't have access to papers, but you asked for the evidence. the 2nd paper shows that 1 puff of cigarette smoke can occupy receptors in your brain (and likely elsewhere, since nicotinic receptors bind nicotine with very high affinity around the body) for 3 hours.
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On May 24 2011 09:58 Clearout wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:57 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:46 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:44 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:33 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:28 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:23 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 08:19 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 08:17 BroodjeBaller wrote:On May 24 2011 07:57 Egyptian_Head wrote:
[quote]
You feel the same way about alcohol? Alcohol doesnt smell horrible, its not bad for your health(and other peoples health) if you take it in moderation, its not bad for your looks. Ow and the smell of smoking is not something temporary. Its stay in your clothes(untill you wash them), it stay in your car, it stays in your house, its horrible. So no I dont feel the same way about alcohol. This has got to be the most idiotic post I've seen this week. Why? Because you are a smoker I guess? Because it's complete bullshit to say alcohol doesn't have an odor. Ever talk to anyone when they are drunk and you are sober? Ever seen the victim of a drunk driver after they can ran over cause someone had a night on the town? Ever had a friend puking their guts out over a toilet bowl and you found that attractive? Your post just fails on so many levels. Learn to read I never said alcohol doesnt have an odor. It doesnt smell as horrible as smoking and the range of the smell is much much smaller. I also said drinking in moderation so dont come with your drunk driver bs. Again learn to read. Moderation doesn't make anything addicting better for you nor does it make one better to do than the other. Alcohol is still poison. It's still destructive. Just like smoking. So my point still stands regardless of how you word anything. No alcohol actually has positive effects when you take it in moderation. Smoking is bad even when you take it in moderation. Those are all myths. You can still cause harm to your body even under the guidelines by the AMA. There is much more research needed to really understand any benefits from alcohol. I take them with a grain of salt. You are correct, the entire a glass of wine a day is better for your health myth is only based on a observational study for example. Edit: Discussing on TL till' 3AM when you have school the next day, wohoo Too fun not to though.
One 30 year study when there are thousands of years of research and even my personal observations that reject any claims of anything positive coming out of booze but maybe a good time. Yeah it's a good discussion in this thread and maybe someone will get something out of all of this.
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On May 24 2011 10:02 Nqsty wrote:
I would be so pissed, let people do whatever the fuck they want, give fines for throwing cigs on the floor, aside from that, smoking is bliss.
wow, i wonder what'll happen when that finally happens...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
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There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year rose by 51% for products like Camel Snus. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this.
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I don't understand why non smokers want to take away the freedom to smoke when it's already a pain in the ass. Meanwhile, you'll take medication for anxiety, eat a mcdonalds burger, drive a big ass truck with a bottle next to you and go home and beat your wives. Yes it is an exaggeration, but as long as there are designated smoking areas what is the big issue? I'm not walking around blowing smoke in people's face, nor will I smoke near someone that doesn't smoke. God it pisses me off that non smokers are making it seem like the smoke is traveling twenty feet and going straight into your lungs.
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On May 24 2011 10:14 Baarn wrote:
There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year for rose by 51%. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this.
Unfortunately those are about to get fucked over too. Not to mention the high taxes being put in place on cigars.
It just makes me angry that the government is telling me what I can or cannot enjoy when in reality all I'm harming is myself.
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On May 24 2011 10:11 fush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:02 Nqsty wrote:
I would be so pissed, let people do whatever the fuck they want, give fines for throwing cigs on the floor, aside from that, smoking is bliss. wow, i wonder what'll happen when that finally happens... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
Slippery slope fallacy. Grow up.
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Smoking is bad, I'm all for banning smoking in every way possible.
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On May 24 2011 10:14 Baarn wrote:
There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year rose by 51% for products like Camel Snus. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this.
What people often don't realise, is that there's plenty evidence that has linked smokeless tobacco with many of the same diseases as regular cigarettes.
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They want to ban smoking in public places in Sweden, I don' think that you should legislate on personal lifestyles, if someone is smoking, it's their own choice.
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EPT
