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On February 04 2011 03:49 MichaelJLowell wrote:
E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them.
Can't speak for America, but over here an employer isn't allowed to fire you on the basis that you were assaulted and injured.
Yeah, I called it "assault". Why not? It's not like we know anything except the fact that Demuslim was pushed and injured. Are you really saying that's a good enough excuse to fire someone?
That said neither I nor you know any details of Demuslims contract. You're making a lot of assumptions based on even more assumptions. But hey, everyone right online and everyone has their God given right to prove it
On February 04 2011 03:52 Malhorn wrote:
Some of you guys seroiusly need to lighten up, lol. Almost everyone goes out and has a good time every once in a while. Sometimes shit happens, its part of life. If you aren't going out and enjoying life, then whats the point?
No fun allowed is the solid foundation e-sports will be built upon, didn't you know? If not you can most definitely learn it lurking these forums!
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This is terrible news indeed.
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MichaelJLowell you should stop posting. You dont seem to have a clear mind on your own. Maybe drunk? So pls just stop and dont annoy people here.... It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
You have a higher chance to get an injury from sports i think and thats something everyone should do  . Remember he did not fight but Fall.... You can fall everywhere. So pls stop to annoy like a little bitch and apologize to the people here for xour behavior.
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On February 04 2011 03:52 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:49 MichaelJLowell wrote:On February 04 2011 03:41 Tiax;mous wrote:
MichaelJLowell - If anything , this seriousness and extreme strict professional approach will hurt esports and esport fanbase more than a few beers demuslim had. Obviously esports means "no fun allowed" and these 20 yo kids should live like a 40yo family father , home to work , back to home right? Kids all over the world will be dying to watch those guys , no doubt E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them. On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote:
Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened?
Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen.
So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed. On February 04 2011 02:10 Asha` wrote:
According to Rotti on stream:
There was an unfortunate alteraction with some drunk guys, demu got pushed/punched and fell on his elbow
He'll likely be out of hospital on Monday, is fortunately showing good improvements already
With proper rehab he could be able to start playing again after 2-3 weeks or so Are you now going to tell me that Rotterdam isn't a reliable source because he was drinking at the time? It's a dumb move on your part just discrediting DeMuslim for being unprofessional with not enough circumstancial evidence. We just don't know how exactly the incident occurred, and judging purely from the outcome is simply unacceptable.
I'll repeat the posts that I quoted earlier in the thread, bolded for emphasis:
On February 04 2011 02:04 Tanith wrote:
I'l happily debate otherwise if/when the facts are known as to how the fight happened, i seriously doubt he was out on the town randomly picking fights with people (thats stupid) but a fight kicking off and defending yourself or perhaps sticking up for friends (who knows) is not stupid at all, we've all been there, go for a night out where I live and you'll see it happening in every fuckin pub! On February 04 2011 01:43 gparent wrote:
People who are claiming this cannot possibly happen if you are careful probably haven't been outside on their own in the first place. I don't know if you ever went to a bar, Michael, but you don't have to start a fight for it to happen to you. In extreme cases, someone looking for one will get it, no matter how "professional" you are about it.
We've established that he was at a bar and he was drinking. People in this thread defending DeMusliM have acknowledged the danger involved. I don't think Team EG cares whether or not there was a risk involved. They just know one of their players has a broken hand because of that risk.
On February 04 2011 03:55 Tiax;mous wrote:
MichaelJLowell - Yea of course his employer can/may fire him if it is in his contract , noone is arguing about that. The problem is you're trying to make him look like he raped the soul of this serious esports business etc etc. Or maybe you haven't noticed that , you've been preaching for like 10 pages about how irresponsible and stupid he is , while everyone was kindly wishing him well ? Chill down man...
Don't worry...
On February 04 2011 00:14 meRz wrote:
T_T Get well Ben! Looks like you went too loco this time man :/!
Hope to see you back in action soon! On February 04 2011 00:16 moNsi wrote:get better soon!  ) must have been kinda drunk tho :p falling, not noticing untill later etc  On February 04 2011 00:18 FireBlast! wrote:
Represent! On February 04 2011 00:20 zatic wrote:
It's hard out there for a pimp. Cologne gangster life is tough. On February 04 2011 00:24 pompey606 wrote:
Ben is a true Brit. Never been more proud! On February 04 2011 00:28 rolfe wrote:
Poor guy, couldn't have happened at a worse time really. still a true brit!
I'm just providing the counterbalance.
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United Kingdom38205 Posts
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This is sad news indeed. Hope he gets better soon and is able to return to top-form reasonable quickly. Demuslim was always one of those players I expected might own up just about any tournament.
On February 04 2011 03:34 MichaelJLowell wrote:Several years back, the Warcraft III player Moon broke his hand after he "got into an accident in the hotel lobby of the Ramada Hotel. The result of the accident was a broken arm to the Korean player, who was rushed to the hospital." Was that stupid? No. It happens. It was an accident.
No it doesn't happen. It was a calculated risk, and to be honest quite an unprofessional one. Moon should have been wearing protective arm gear (similar to that employed in several fighting sports) to protect his arms in the event of an accident. To be honest even walking by himself was sort of irresponsible as he knew there was a risk he would fall, or get knocked over, and it could result in injury. Ideally he should have done the professional thing and stayed in his room or been transported in a protected vechicle (wheelchair or something like it inside). Ever seen president Obama just walk down the street? No, because he understands the risk of walking by himself so he employs armored vechicles and a security detail. He is professional.
"Getting into a fight at the bar" was not an accident because DeMusliM made the conscious decision to go to that bar and put himself in a position of calculated risk. By the words of the people posting in this thread, he made a calculated risk.
He went to a bar and consumed alcohol, those were the risks he were taking. There is no evidence that DeMuslim entered into a fight, so that was an accident. Going to a bar usually is safe if you do not seek out trouble, so it is a reasonable risk to take just like shaking hands, riding a bike, walking down the street or being in a car are all risky, but in a reasonable way. If EG feels he need to be so protective of himself that he needs a curfew, then I doubt many gamers would be interested in playing for EG.
BTW you do realize Incontrol tackled qxc at an MLG event right? Why haven't EG fired him yet? Compared to DeMuslim's risky actions of going to a bar this seems much more dangerous. Maybe they could fire both of them (mostly due to a lack of player rights), but why would they be such a strict team? They may safe a months salary on Demuslim, but no other pro is going to want to sign a contract with them if they treat their players like that.
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On February 04 2011 03:49 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote:
Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened?
Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen.
So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed. Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 02:10 Asha` wrote:
According to Rotti on stream:
There was an unfortunate alteraction with some drunk guys, demu got pushed/punched and fell on his elbow
He'll likely be out of hospital on Monday, is fortunately showing good improvements already
With proper rehab he could be able to start playing again after 2-3 weeks or so Are you now going to tell me that Rotterdam isn't a reliable source because he was drinking at the time?
I only read the OP. The OP clearly states they went drinking AFTER the incident. Do you have additional sources where Rotterdam claims that Demuslim was drinking at/prior the time (of the incident)?
If yes, I stand corrected and would really like to read those sources.
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On February 04 2011 04:00 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:52 hmsrenown wrote:On February 04 2011 03:49 MichaelJLowell wrote:On February 04 2011 03:41 Tiax;mous wrote:
MichaelJLowell - If anything , this seriousness and extreme strict professional approach will hurt esports and esport fanbase more than a few beers demuslim had. Obviously esports means "no fun allowed" and these 20 yo kids should live like a 40yo family father , home to work , back to home right? Kids all over the world will be dying to watch those guys , no doubt E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them. On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote:
Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened?
Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen.
So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed. On February 04 2011 02:10 Asha` wrote:
According to Rotti on stream:
There was an unfortunate alteraction with some drunk guys, demu got pushed/punched and fell on his elbow
He'll likely be out of hospital on Monday, is fortunately showing good improvements already
With proper rehab he could be able to start playing again after 2-3 weeks or so Are you now going to tell me that Rotterdam isn't a reliable source because he was drinking at the time? It's a dumb move on your part just discrediting DeMuslim for being unprofessional with not enough circumstancial evidence. We just don't know how exactly the incident occurred, and judging purely from the outcome is simply unacceptable. I'll repeat the posts that I quoted earlier in the thread, bolded for emphasis: Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 02:04 Tanith wrote:
I'l happily debate otherwise if/when the facts are known as to how the fight happened, i seriously doubt he was out on the town randomly picking fights with people (thats stupid) but a fight kicking off and defending yourself or perhaps sticking up for friends (who knows) is not stupid at all, we've all been there, go for a night out where I live and you'll see it happening in every fuckin pub! Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 01:43 gparent wrote:
People who are claiming this cannot possibly happen if you are careful probably haven't been outside on their own in the first place. I don't know if you ever went to a bar, Michael, but you don't have to start a fight for it to happen to you. In extreme cases, someone looking for one will get it, no matter how "professional" you are about it. We've established that he was at a bar and he was drinking. People in this thread defending DeMusliM have acknowledged the danger involved. I don't think Team EG cares whether or not there was a risk involved. They just know one of their players has a broken hand because of that risk. Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:55 Tiax;mous wrote:
MichaelJLowell - Yea of course his employer can/may fire him if it is in his contract , noone is arguing about that. The problem is you're trying to make him look like he raped the soul of this serious esports business etc etc. Or maybe you haven't noticed that , you've been preaching for like 10 pages about how irresponsible and stupid he is , while everyone was kindly wishing him well ? Chill down man... Don't worry... Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:14 meRz wrote:
T_T Get well Ben! Looks like you went too loco this time man :/!
Hope to see you back in action soon! Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:16 moNsi wrote:get better soon! ) must have been kinda drunk tho :p falling, not noticing untill later etc Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:20 zatic wrote:
It's hard out there for a pimp. Cologne gangster life is tough. Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:24 pompey606 wrote:
Ben is a true Brit. Never been more proud! Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:28 rolfe wrote:
Poor guy, couldn't have happened at a worse time really. still a true brit! I'm just providing the counterbalance.
Look, context matters. The bottom line is that we don't know how the situation went down. There are a million ways in which DeMuslim could have acted responsibility and a million ways in which he could have acted irresponsibility. You don't know enough to make a judgement on DeMuslim's choices. EG will talk to their player and make the appropriate decision. In the mean time, stop trolling this thread.
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All I hear is a lot of "If I were a pro gamer this is how I act and anything outside of that realm is deemed 'unprofessional'."
Seriously guys, if you're going to judge people based on the word "professional" without a definition then you deserve to have your whole post ignored. People are starting to take their own opinion on what is acceptable and calling that professional. Which makes sense, I guess, since it makes your argument look like it has more credence than "this is my opinion" since you're supposedly arguing from a fact (the definition/idea of professionalism). You just leave your audience to define the term themselves so your job is that much easier.
How about we stop worrying about what "professionalism" in SC2 is because quite frankly these talks seem to end up as "professionalism =what I would do in their shoes."
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On February 04 2011 04:01 Asha` wrote:![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/291l5km.jpg)
the sad thing is that this is exactly what any star articles look like xD
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On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
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Frankly, I don't think the issue of being "professional" is that important. The big thing for EG is probably that one of their biggest names is going to drop out of big tournaments and possibly months of practice time.
That can do alot to ones skill, trust me. Even if he is healed, pain can still linger on and broken elbows often is quite tricky cause almost all movements of the arm would trigger "elbow pain".
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On February 04 2011 04:08 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar. Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
it's a risk to leave the house or step out of the shower because you could fall. come on you cannot be serious.
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On February 04 2011 04:08 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar. Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
What the fuck? Drinking in a bar is a risk? Going to restaurants/bars/pubs is integral part of european culture. Everyone goes to a Restaurant in the evening once in a while, including families with their children. If going out in the evening to have a drink and some food is a risk, everything is a "risk".
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On February 04 2011 04:10 trancey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 04:08 LegendaryZ wrote:On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar. Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless. it's a risk to leave the house or step out of the shower because you could fall. come on you cannot be serious.
No pro gamers should be allowed to visit Swedish tournaments. The risk of falling and breaking an arm was probably higher outside of Dreamhack this winter than it has ever been in a pub. Bloody ice man, it's a calculated risk to go outside.
On February 04 2011 04:11 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 04:08 LegendaryZ wrote:On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar. Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless. What the fuck? Drinking in a bar is a risk? Going to restaurants/bars/pubs is integral part of european culture. Everyone goes to a Restaurant in the evening once in a while, including families with their children. If going out in the evening to have a drink and some food is a risk, everything is a risk.
This "culture" phenomenon you speak of, it seems not everyone is aware of such an extraordinary thing.
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This thread makes my head hurt.
Get well soon Ben!
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On February 04 2011 04:02 rasnj wrote:This is sad news indeed. Hope he gets better soon and is able to return to top-form reasonable quickly. Demuslim was always one of those players I expected might own up just about any tournament. Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:34 MichaelJLowell wrote:Several years back, the Warcraft III player Moon broke his hand after he "got into an accident in the hotel lobby of the Ramada Hotel. The result of the accident was a broken arm to the Korean player, who was rushed to the hospital." Was that stupid? No. It happens. It was an accident. No it doesn't happen. It was a calculated risk, and to be honest quite an unprofessional one. Moon should have been wearing protective arm gear (similar to that employed in several fighting sports) to protect his arms in the event of an accident. To be honest even walking by himself was sort of irresponsible as he knew there was a risk he would fall, or get knocked over, and it could result in injury. Ideally he should have done the professional thing and stayed in his room or been transported in a protected vechicle (wheelchair or something like it inside). Ever seen president Obama just walk down the street? No, because he understands the risk of walking by himself so he employs armored vechicles and a security detail. He is professional. Show nested quote +"Getting into a fight at the bar" was not an accident because DeMusliM made the conscious decision to go to that bar and put himself in a position of calculated risk. By the words of the people posting in this thread, he made a calculated risk. He went to a bar and consumed alcohol, those were the risks he were taking. There is no evidence that DeMuslim entered into a fight, so that was an accident. Going to a bar usually is safe if you do not seek out trouble, so it is a reasonable risk to take just like shaking hands, riding a bike, walking down the street or being in a car are all risky, but in a reasonable way. If EG feels he need to be so protective of himself that he needs a curfew, then I doubt many gamers would be interested in playing for EG. BTW you do realize Incontrol tackled qxc at an MLG event right? Why haven't EG fired him yet? Compared to DeMuslim's risky actions of going to a bar this seems much more dangerous. Maybe they could fire both of them (mostly due to a lack of player rights), but why would they be such a strict team? They may safe a months salary on Demuslim, but no other pro is going to want to sign a contract with them if they treat their players like that.
I'm not even going to bother responding to you.
On February 04 2011 04:03 Zocat wrote:
I only read the OP. The OP clearly states they went drinking AFTER the incident. Do you have additional sources where Rotterdam claims that Demuslim was drinking at/prior the time (of the incident)?
If yes, I stand corrected and would really like to read those sources.
Yeah, they went drinking "after". We don't know that, either. Their story is "they got into a fight with drunks" and "DeMusliM broke his hand" and "they went out drinking after and only noticed the broken hand later". Right. Quite frankly, none of us know any facts other than "they went out drinking" and "they got into a fight with drunks". From my point of view, they did a stupid thing.
On February 04 2011 04:05 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
Look, context matters. The bottom line is that we don't know how the situation went down. There are a million ways in which DeMuslim could have acted responsibility and a million ways in which he could have acted irresponsibility. You don't know enough to make a judgement on DeMuslim's choices. EG will talk to their player and make the appropriate decision. In the mean time, stop trolling this thread.
Trolling does not equal disagreement. I've already made my side of the argument. You don't agree, whatever. I'm just going to end up repeating my arguments ad nauseum until every person on TeamLiquid has read this thread. Later.
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On February 04 2011 04:12 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 04:10 trancey_ wrote:On February 04 2011 04:08 LegendaryZ wrote:On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar. Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless. it's a risk to leave the house or step out of the shower because you could fall. come on you cannot be serious. No pro gamers should be allowed to visit Swedish tournaments. The risk of falling and breaking an arm was probably higher outside of Dreamhack this winter than it has ever been in a pub. Bloody ice man, it's a calculated risk to go outside.
YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WALK ON ICE OR WE WILL TERMINATE YOUR CONTRACT WITH US, ITS A CALCULATED RISK AND VERY UNPROFFESIONAL TO WALK ON ICE. WE DO NOT PAY YOU TO WALK ON ICE.
UGGA UGGA.
User was warned for this post
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Calculated risks.... Calculated risks everywhere man!
Thanks God that beanie didn't hurt Jinro's head or pillow hurt HuK bottom. ProGamers are sooo irresponsible these days ><
enough of this ; get well Ben! Hope everything works out well for you!
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EPT
