The british terran player DeMusliM broke his hand and elbow after getting into a small "skirmish" while he was out drinking with fellow player Rotterdam.
RotterdaM08 Kevin van der Kooi Oh man, bad night, that wasn't supposed to end like that... t_t, updates will follow
RotterdaM08 Kevin van der Kooi On my way to das krankenhaus once more, not for myself though, hopefully everything will be fine soon..
RotterdaM08 Kevin van der Kooi Poor Benni [...]
[...] pretty much right on, thats pretty much what happened, I was in the hospital this morning and most likely he can leave at monday, he wont go assembly most likely but IEM global finals should be np, but assembly is to early, I will perhaps upload a picture later when I got my camera here of how his elbow looked that night we got home, its pretty sick :D
They were out drinking on monday and got into some trouble with a couple of people. Not much happened there but Demuslim fell down and broke hand and elbow - which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first. When coming home he apparently needed help from Rotterdam, they noticed his arm/elbow was swollen badly and they got him into a hospital asap. He was x-rayd and operated and will stay in the hospital for another couple of days.
As said in the quote he probably won't make it for the Winter Assembly 2011 in Helsinki, but IEM finals should be OK according to Rotterdam. He may have to be replaced in the ESL Pro Series, but I don't know too much about that league.
MOD EDIT: on page 14:
On February 04 2011 06:40 RotterdaM wrote: Hey guys,
Just to sum things up 1 more time, He did not get beat up, ( He has absolutely 0 marks in his face or whatsoever... some people seem to assume this ), the guy he had an arguement with is 100% sure not even aware of what happened to his elbow/hand, ben just got very unlucky by falling and landing very unfortunate, he was _DEFINATELY_ not to drunk to stand up, honestly how can people even write that stuff without being there? If he was I would just admit it but its absolute rubbish -_-, he was far from that, sure we had a few drinks but not even close to the level where you can't get up from the street, its honestly quite bad to just throw stuff like that out there without knowing the facts.
All in all this is just a fucked up situation cause this entire affair wouldnt have been a story at all if he wouldnt have got so unlucky to land on his elbow, now It looks like some kind of massacre took place while it was absolutely nothing like that.
In the end of the day its only sad for 1 person and thats demuslim himself, he was in absolute monstershape, taking rank 1 in Europe and over the last few days having like 85%+ win ration vs the best players in ladder, which was kinda insane and he seeemed very ready for assembly, unfortunately thats gonna be a tough story but as I said, EPS and IEM should be all fine.
He will get out of the hospital on monday most likely, but was already able to move his arm and hand quite a bit this morning, with a bit of luck hes playing within 12/13 days, he had surgery a few hours after the incident took place and has been recovring ever since, I'll pay him another visit tomorrow morning before I go to work to send him all the best wishes many people did and hopefully bring some positiv news to this forum as well
Edit #2 - Demuslim's dad (page 20):
On February 04 2011 23:29 giovanni9 wrote: Hello everyone, please excuse the user name, its part of my business. My name is Reg Baker, and i am Bens (DeMuslims) father. Should you wish to verify, my e-mail address is [MOD EDIT] Having read some of these comments i feel compelled to clear the air. Firstly, Ben,Rotty, and Jo were enjoying a drink Monday evening and unfortunately were verbally abused by a group of people. Although they sensibly moved away to avoid confrontation, the abusers persued and got physical. Whereupon Ben, was forced to defend himself and punched assailant unfortunately injuring knuckles in the process. During following "skirmish/fight" Ben had bad fall on his elbow, before dispatching opponent. Clearly the main thing now, is his speedy recovery, thankyou to everyone who expressed their well wishes. To the likes of MJLowell i really have nothing to say. Reg Baker
Bad news, i hope he gets better soon. Imo thats why working out is always useful, ur body becomes stronger and u avoid those common accidents that can end up really badly.
And damn, living up to the stereotype of british people getting into fights on pubs... it really is a horrible news, i always thought that Germany was like a super calm place to hang out.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Does anyone actually care about this? People always bring up "professionalism" in gaming, but almost always to say "well, other people (but not me) might be put off by this".
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Does anyone actually care about this? People always bring up "professionalism" in gaming, but almost always to say "well, other people (but not me) might be put off by this".
In this case, Demuslim's livelihood is now harmed by it. If any reason, that's why people will care.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
Maybe he will be like that kid in that baseball movie that can pitch super fast after he breaks his arm. That would be pretty sweet. Get well soon, though!
I love Demuslim because he does shit like this. When he was ballin and raping everyone in IEM kiev after drinking the night before, it was freaking inspirational man. Dude has a super human liver and super human hand.
Fenix and Demuslim should duke it out. I'd pay to see that.
On February 04 2011 00:38 ffz wrote: I love Demuslim because he does shit like this. When he was ballin and raping everyone in IEM kiev after drinking the night before, it was freaking inspirational man. Dude has a super human liver and super human hand.
Fenix and Demuslim should duke it out. I'd pay to see that.
I know a girl in Cardiff who has a liver age of 65... she's only 21...
That's why the UK has the highest teen pregnancy/teen suicide rates across the world. But yes, this is why I like Demuslim. He's so casual about being good: who needs to practice hard when you can go out and breka your hand. What a hero.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
So sportsmen and women never go out and get drunk then do something they regret in the morning? I know my fav Striker Jermaine Defoe has done that on multiple occasions..... he's been out with an ankle injury from falling over while drunk before now...
I could list off god knows how many professional sportmen, businessmen, politicians, musicians (including me) who have gotten into a fight while drunk and not been able to work for a few weeks with some kinds of injury.
Its not unprofessional to be human, they have lives that we don't have a part in.... they play this game for themselves, not for you. your judgements about their behaviour won't stop them from doing what they want, nor should it
I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's because I was being a total idiot, so my guess is he deserved it.
P.S. I have to say the amount of "proud" comments in this thread is disgusting. It's like your favorite footballer breaking his leg and you going "good job man!". Get real.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
So he should never cross the street either, since there is a risk he'll get run over. Probably shouldnt take a shower either since there is a risk he will slip and fall over and in the shower that might very well kill him with floors usually being quite hard and what not. Do you realise how silly you sound?
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
what are you serious??? basically what your saying is its his own fault for having a life and being out in the real world, so lets say it wasn't a fight and he was out drinking and got mugged on the way home. by your fucking moronic logic would that be same or different to you ?
I'm sure some people live in a bubble void of what actually happens in the real world!
On February 04 2011 00:46 niteReloaded wrote: I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's because I was being a total idiot, so my guess is he deserved it.
I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's becauce the other guy was being a total idiot, so my guess is he didnt deserve it.
yes lets all live boring lives and act like true professionals. Telling me that youve never gone out been in wrong place at wrong time and nearly been in a scrap or do you not actually go out? Happens all the time, my mate who you would call professional was out with his grilfriend and this guy kept badgering onto his girlfriends, my mate asks this guy to leave them alone nicely, and the guy started swinging, you get these guys everywhere, they just want to cause problems for others.
None of us know the true story of how this happened, could of been like 3 guys starting on Demulsim and he was trying to get away, he also could of smacked one or he could of got a kick in on the ground.. done judge and act all high and mighty till we know all the facts, if he was swinging round a lampost then you can comment about being a true professional.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
So sportsmen and women never go out and get drunk then do something they regret in the morning? I know my fav Striker Jermaine Defoe has done that on multiple occasions..... he's been out with an ankle injury from falling over while drunk before now...
I could list off god knows how many professional sportmen, businessmen, politicians, musicians (including me) who have gotten into a fight while drunk and not been able to work for a few weeks with some kinds of injury.
Its not unprofessional to be human, they have lives that we don't have a part in.... they play this game for themselves, not for you. your judgements about their behaviour won't stop them from doing what they want, nor should it
there is a difference, a musician that cant sing for a month is no biggie because after the month he can just start again. If a soccer player gets into a barfight and breaks his leg that is just retarded - he probably destroyed his whole life at that point for a night having fun. And it doesnt fucking matter why there was a fight - in 99.99% of the cases you could have avoided it.
Same is true for Demuslim case, esports and anything that involves skill and practice, it was just stupid it would be kinda funny if eg kicked him out of the team for it because bad PR.
That's unfortunate. This can always happen when you're going out drinking, hope he gets better soon.
Whoever talked about being professional: Right. Pro Gamers that go out drinking are horrible persons. lol. Who doesn't go out in this age? It's not like he is the president, he is an e-sportler.
On February 04 2011 00:46 niteReloaded wrote: I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's because I was being a total idiot, so my guess is he deserved it.
I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's becauce the other guy was being a total idiot, so my guess is he didnt deserve it.
my point is that many times you can be a bigger man and resolve things without fighting.
That's why I only had 1 fight, and that 1 fight could've been avoided if the other guy realized I was an idiot and simply beaten me with words or wit or something.
Fistfighting is really really unneccessary in most cases imo.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
I somehow have the impression that the only ones whining about professionalism in these kind of scenarios are the ones who never had to be professional in the first place, I'm sure Demuslim is halting the growth of e-sports as well, right?
As good as TL is in some ways there's a part of it I really, really cannot understand. What do you want gamers to be, nuns? Hm, I guess not, nuns can drink wine can't they? Ditto for businessmen and politicians. I guess they should be above all others, never drink, never fight, never cuss... Meh, I'm ranting.
Anyway, hope he gets better. One of the few Ts I really enjoy watching, but this could mean there'll be a lot of Demuslim commentary..? :O
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
So sportsmen and women never go out and get drunk then do something they regret in the morning? I know my fav Striker Jermaine Defoe has done that on multiple occasions..... he's been out with an ankle injury from falling over while drunk before now...
I could list off god knows how many professional sportmen, businessmen, politicians, musicians (including me) who have gotten into a fight while drunk and not been able to work for a few weeks with some kinds of injury.
Its not unprofessional to be human, they have lives that we don't have a part in.... they play this game for themselves, not for you. your judgements about their behaviour won't stop them from doing what they want, nor should it
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
So he should never cross the street either, since there is a risk he'll get run over. Probably shouldnt take a shower either since there is a risk he will slip and fall over and in the shower that might very well kill him with floors usually being quite hard and what not. Do you realise how silly you sound?
Yes, you can extrapolate that situation to its clearly ridiculous and absurd extremes if you'd like.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
what are you serious??? basically what your saying is its his own fault for having a life and being out in the real world, so lets say it wasn't a fight and he was out drinking and got mugged on the way home. by your fucking moronic logic would that be same or different to you ?
I'm sure some people live in a bubble void of what actually happens in the real world!
"LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
It's a good thing it doesn't matter that you're judging him. He's a young guy, things like this are going to happen. I don't blame him for getting into a fight, if that were me I would have done the same thing.
On February 04 2011 00:46 niteReloaded wrote: I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's because I was being a total idiot, so my guess is he deserved it.
I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's becauce the other guy was being a total idiot, so my guess is he didnt deserve it.
my point is that many times you can be a bigger man and resolve things without fighting.
That's why I only had 1 fight, and that 1 fight could've been avoided if the other guy realized I was an idiot and simply beaten me with words or wit or something.
Fistfighting is really really unneccessary in most cases imo.
My point is. If you run into some idiots in a bar. Who are actually looking for fight just because they can and its fun for them. You wont get out of there without a fight. Since neither of us was there we dont now what actually happened so saying things like "he deserved" is totally uncalled for.
"LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
Oh my, no matter if I were to become an SC2 bonjwa I sure as hell am never joining EG! I doubt your information is faulty, you know the details of Demuslim's contract, yeah? Remember the phrasing which said he can't go out drinking?
On February 04 2011 01:05 MichaelJLowell wrote: "LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
Alright man, good to know you've never ever done anything stupid. Next time I need advice or anyone I know needs advice, I'll let them know that Mr. Perfect over here has got their backs with constructive message board ridiculing.
Most people have idiotic drunk stories, I once blacked out and woke up to find that my apartment was flooded because I somehow shattered the back of my toilet (no idea what actually happened to this day). You just have to live and learn, its only a big deal if this kind of behavior becomes frequent which I really doubt will be the case from what I know of Demuslim.
I'd say something like "It's ok he doesn't need hands to play he can just use his face cause he's terran" but that'd be in bad taste =P
Really though that totally blows. I've broken both arms and the last time I broke something I had a concert coming up, still was able to play just fine though. As long as you rest heavily and take anti inflammatories usually most broken bones aren't that bad. It's not like using a keyboard or mouse is stressful on your bones, it's more joints/fingers/tendons. That being said, he should take it easy cause overworking can slow down the recovery.
On February 04 2011 01:07 GreEny K wrote: It's a good thing it doesn't matter that you're judging him. He's a young guy, things like this are going to happen. I don't blame him for getting into a fight, if that were me I would have done the same thing.
Bolded the part that I am at a total disconnect with.
"LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
Oh my, no matter if I were to become an SC2 bonjwa I sure as hell am never joining EG! I doubt your information is faulty, you know the details of Demuslim's contract, yeah? Remember the phrasing which said he can't go out drinking?
Remember the part where Starcraft players stationed outside of Korea haven't smelled a whiff of a union and have laughably little recourse if Team EG decides to let go of him for "conduct detrimental to the organization"?
On February 04 2011 01:05 MichaelJLowell wrote: "LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
Alright man, good to know you've never ever done anything stupid. Next time I need advice or anyone I know needs advice, I'll let them know that Mr. Perfect over here has got their backs with constructive message board ridiculing.
Good. I give very good advice. You will benefit from it someday.
I'm all for drinking, and would never judge anyone for it, but all the people trying to defend it as "professional" behavior are idiots. Sure, all types of "professionals" go out and drink and possibly get hurt, but it doesn't make it professional behavior. Professionals are possible of acting in ways that are unprofessional (duh?), and do so pretty much constantly. A professional drinker is the only person who can break his arm drunk and claim he was acting professional at the time. That being said who cares what Demuslim does? as long as its recover :D
On February 04 2011 01:05 MichaelJLowell wrote: "LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
I am pretty sure that's not what they pay him for.
Anyway I think we got your point. The rest should be between EG and Demuslim and frankly isn't your or our all goddamn business.
Look, I'm probably a lot more tight-knit than most of you guys are. But if you're really going to defend this by saying "it happens" or "he's young and he'll learn from his mistakes" or "we all have drunk stories", yeah. I got no reason continue talking about it.
On February 04 2011 01:05 MichaelJLowell wrote: "LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
I am pretty sure that's not what they pay him for.
Anyway I think we got your point. The rest should be between EG and Demuslim and frankly isn't your or our all goddamn business.
Hey, I didn't post the thread.
Edit: Wait, you're actually saying that isn't what they pay him to do? Then I guess he can go home right now and let someone else take his job.
Demuslim has a life and the way he sustains that life is by gaming and now he has put that in trouble. Clearly thats a bad thing to do and noone here knows how it happened, the fact that alchohol was involves tends to suggest it could have been avoided.
Anyhoo whats happened has happened, i hope he gets well soon.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Really Man. Every 20 year old goes out and has a good time with his buds. Every person has (or should have) a great time in his 20s where you have wild times. Its a God given right if you ask me. If you have never woken up on the kitchen floor from a wild night than you have not truly lived.
On February 04 2011 01:22 Weavel wrote: Fuck this totally sucks... I'd love to see him in Finland.
And also why is that one guy so damn serious about professionalism? Get a life really...
get a life comments are so pathetic, getting drunk and breaking your hand is clearly bad and sponsers are not going to like that image associated with their brand. So EG might want to get rid of him. Obviouslly thats extreme and probably not going to happen but the sponsers are the people with the money and they arnt going to pay to get a bad reputation when they could do it for free.
From what i read that skirmish was very harmless, but it seems he was unlucky and thus got injured this badly. Probably fell down unluckily or something like that. Though that's just what i read.
On February 04 2011 01:26 -Archangel- wrote: I had a similar injury. At worst his hand will not be 100% normal for 6 months, at best 2-3 months.
What do you mean? Never actually had a broken arm/hand so no idea what happens after you're more or less recovered. Just general weakness or pain while using the hand? The latter could really hurt him for however long it takes for a complete recovery, would hate to see that.
Oh and, look at the professional fella's signature. Too silly to be true is generally too silly to be true.
Oh damn , get well soon man! EU scene and tournaments will be boring without you
ps : I don't get why some peoples are acting like EG bought Demuslim as an esports slave or something. Do you really expect a 20-25 year old European to dedicate his life to a game and give up on all joy&fun for a monthly wage? Or you're just bitter that a gamer also having a good life & fun and stuff ?
Its a real pitty. After any sort of break from the shoulder down, especially for someone in Pro SC, thats really bad news. Whether he can return to play for a year or two is not doubtful, but this kind of injury almost guarantees that his future as a player cant continue for as long as he may have wanted (hes now going to be extremely prone to tons of pro gamer related injuries).
a sad day indeed, talent stripped from the young due to a stupid bar fight
People who are claiming this cannot possibly happen if you are careful probably haven't been outside on their own in the first place. I don't know if you ever went to a bar, Michael, but you don't have to start a fight for it to happen to you. In extreme cases, someone looking for one will get it, no matter how "professional" you are about it.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
So sportsmen and women never go out and get drunk then do something they regret in the morning? I know my fav Striker Jermaine Defoe has done that on multiple occasions..... he's been out with an ankle injury from falling over while drunk before now...
I could list off god knows how many professional sportmen, businessmen, politicians, musicians (including me) who have gotten into a fight while drunk and not been able to work for a few weeks with some kinds of injury.
Its not unprofessional to be human, they have lives that we don't have a part in.... they play this game for themselves, not for you. your judgements about their behaviour won't stop them from doing what they want, nor should it
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
Where is your information from that he was drunk? I read the op multiple times now and I can only see "they went drinking" not "they went getting drunk". That's a big difference. Maybe you get drunk everytime you go out drinking (cannot stop once you start?), but that certainly doesnt hold true for everyone.
Also if you read the op, you'll notice: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first." So what exactly has his broken hand to do with drinking? Nothing. He probably thought "Oh, hit the floor in a strange way. Hurts, but it's normal". It's not like every time something hurts you immediately go "Oh it's broken, gotta see the doctor".
And as long as we dont know more about what happened it's stupid to call him unprofessional.
Demuslim should have a life! You work to live, not live to work. And in real life, things like this happen. People make mistakes in their personal lives.
Besides from that I think that sponsors are not upset if they sponsor players/teams which are not robots but have character.
I mean... imagine IdrA being always nice and good mannered. He would probably be the most boring person alive and I'm sure he wouldn't be where he is right now (wich is also EG btw. )
On February 04 2011 01:49 WrathOfAiur wrote: MichaelJLowell takes this really too serious...
Demuslim should have a life! You work to live, not live to work. And in real life, things like this happen. People make mistakes in their personal lives.
Besides from that I think that sponsors are not upset if they sponsor players/teams which are not robots but have character.
I mean... imagine IdrA being always nice and good mannered. He would probably be the most boring person alive and I'm sure he wouldn't be where he is right now (wich is also EG btw. )
iam pretty sure that they didnt hire Idra because he is bm sometimes. and iam also 100% sure that they didnt hire demuslim to get into barfights, they have incontrol for barfights.
On February 04 2011 01:46 weaknurse wrote: Adults acting like children, very disappointing.
Man, Australia's a cruel place. Giant spiders, crocodiles, poisonous everything AND children having bar fights? Absolutely incredible!
On February 04 2011 01:58 unoriginalname wrote: I have to know whether this skirmish involved a chav getting hit. If so, as a Briton, I fully endorse the violence.
Not been to Germany for years but I'm quite sure the chav culture is isolated in England. I bloody hope, anyway.
On February 04 2011 01:22 Weavel wrote: Fuck this totally sucks... I'd love to see him in Finland.
And also why is that one guy so damn serious about professionalism? Get a life really...
I don't care about the professionalism. He did something stupid. Are you willing to debate elsewise?
I'l happily debate otherwise if/when the facts are known as to how the fight happened, i seriously doubt he was out on the town randomly picking fights with people (thats stupid) but a fight kicking off and defending yourself or perhaps sticking up for friends (who knows) is not stupid at all, we've all been there, go for a night out where I live and you'll see it happening in every fuckin pub!
Aww man.. : ( It always gets too wild when in pubs with madfrog. Hopefully he recovers fast. Too bad about Assembly was hoping for a DemusliM vs Grubby match.
also lol at everyone saying "that's ok because he should have life" on the one hand and spewing crap about ESPORTS and how it should be taken seriously as real sports on the other hand.
On February 04 2011 02:06 ondik wrote: also lol at everyone saying "that's ok because he should have life" on the one hand and spewing crap about ESPORTS and how it should be taken seriously as real sports on the other hand.
so professional sports players don't drink.... "opens newspaper to see the football players snapped drunk in a bar this week".
On February 04 2011 01:26 -Archangel- wrote: I had a similar injury. At worst his hand will not be 100% normal for 6 months, at best 2-3 months.
What do you mean? Never actually had a broken arm/hand so no idea what happens after you're more or less recovered. Just general weakness or pain while using the hand? The latter could really hurt him for however long it takes for a complete recovery, would hate to see that.
Oh and, look at the professional fella's signature. Too silly to be true is generally too silly to be true.
when you break your hand, it's never the same. at least that's what one of my friends said after he broke his hand from too much makiwara practice.
No, but I really hope you get better, at least it was broken in a bar fight though, and oh idk not to name any specifics, and not because you tripped on the sidewalk and face-planted with your hand to the side and heard the crack as you landed, or because you were helping your grandmother into the car and she closed the door on your hand.
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
As i have first hand experience of not being able to perform my job thru a franctured elbow i picked up while wrestling with my dad, I know just how easily these things happen. I did a hip throw and landed on my elbow, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Demuslim, but bad enough.
I had been drinking, wasn't drunk but wan't sober and probably shouldn't have been messing about, but I couldn't play a guitar for months and my band lost literally thousands of pounds in work.... were they pissed off about it? Sure.... did they kick me out of the band.... fuck no. This stuff happens and just because people have invested time and money in you doesn't make you beholdent to them.
I am sure EG aren't happy about it, I wouldn't be, but I guess neither is Demuslim since he can't earn any money until he is healed. Depending on what arm it is and his mouse/keyboard technique he shuold be able to start playing again pretty soon, the only reason I was unable to play guitar for so long was that I didn't have the range of motion in my left arm (the one you do all the work with) and you dont really need much range of motion to use a PC, the disabled guy who plays SC2 has shown that, and hand fractures heal really fast so he should be able to use a keyboard or mouse with no issues pretty soon. Hands injuries aren't as bad as people think, only if its a particularly bad break will he have any issues
Maybe this is a european thing, but going out and having a few drinks then getting in a fight isn't a big deal. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, sometimes people just won't let you walk away without a good shove, usually you get up and walk away without injury.... this time Demuslim was unlucky and fell on one of the most delicate parts of the body, you elbow isn't designed to take all your weight, when I fractured mine I fell on soft grass for gods sake ;p
On February 04 2011 01:07 GreEny K wrote: It's a good thing it doesn't matter that you're judging him. He's a young guy, things like this are going to happen. I don't blame him for getting into a fight, if that were me I would have done the same thing.
Bolded the part that I am at a total disconnect with.
"LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
Oh my, no matter if I were to become an SC2 bonjwa I sure as hell am never joining EG! I doubt your information is faulty, you know the details of Demuslim's contract, yeah? Remember the phrasing which said he can't go out drinking?
Remember the part where Starcraft players stationed outside of Korea haven't smelled a whiff of a union and have laughably little recourse if Team EG decides to let go of him for "conduct detrimental to the organization"?
On February 04 2011 01:05 MichaelJLowell wrote: "LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
Alright man, good to know you've never ever done anything stupid. Next time I need advice or anyone I know needs advice, I'll let them know that Mr. Perfect over here has got their backs with constructive message board ridiculing.
Good. I give very good advice. You will benefit from it someday.
Are you of the opinion, that the native Americans were also looking for trouble with your wannabe christian forefathers?
However, life is not only about criticism and good advice, sometimes it's about sympathy and wishing well. Does this hurt your brain?
Hey Rotterdam, best wishes to Ben. He is one of the most beautiful human beings in the SC2 scene. May he get well soon!
meeeeeeh badluck for the ben. but seems like hangin out with rotterdam is shitton of fun ~
hope he gets well soon, he was so good recently. poor england, their only good player gone.
and massive haha at the butthurt guys in this thread "HE R PROFESSIONAL! HE NO DRINK! MADNESS!". really wonder in which world they are living. guess they never went out or followed ANY sport at all.
Get well soon, staying in Nottingham right now I can understand how you get a certain attitude around bars as a true Brit :D
But honestly, if you have ever been out drinking in Germany you will know that this kind of thing might happen at some point, nothing you can do about it, it's all about hitting that one prick...
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
As i have first hand experience of not being able to perform my job thru a franctured elbow i picked up while wrestling with my dad, I know just how easily these things happen. I did a hip throw and landed on my elbow, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Demuslim, but bad enough.
I had been drinking, wasn't drunk but wan't sober and probably shouldn't have been messing about, but I couldn't play a guitar for months and my band lost literally thousands of pounds in work.... were they pissed off about it? Sure.... did they kick me out of the band.... fuck no. This stuff happens and just because people have invested time and money in you doesn't make you beholdent to them.
I am sure EG aren't happy about it, I wouldn't be, but I guess neither is Demuslim since he can't earn any money until he is healed. Depending on what arm it is and his mouse/keyboard technique he shuold be able to start playing again pretty soon, the only reason I was unable to play guitar for so long was that I didn't have the range of motion in my left arm (the one you do all the work with) and you dont really need much range of motion to use a PC, the disabled guy who plays SC2 has shown that, and hand fractures heal really fast so he should be able to use a keyboard or mouse with no issues pretty soon. Hands injuries aren't as bad as people think, only if its a particularly bad break will he have any issues
Maybe this is a european thing, but going out and having a few drinks then getting in a fight isn't a big deal. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, sometimes people just won't let you walk away without a good shove, usually you get up and walk away without injury.... this time Demuslim was unlucky and fell on one of the most delicate parts of the body, you elbow isn't designed to take all your weight, when I fractured mine I fell on soft grass for gods sake ;p
You don't think a team spending thousands of dollars for travel and lodging of a player who then goes a breaks his arm isn't a big deal? The fact is that whenever Demuslim can return to practicing, he is almost guaranteed to further injure his arm in a permanent fashion because he will try to over practice his starcraft to make up for lost time. It looks as if short term now he was a bad investment from a business standpoint and long term, he know has an even more uphill battle as a foreigner competing vs koreans. Its a lose lose situation all around, just more proof that life has no consideration for the plans that we make.
Best wishes to Demuslim, I hope he gets better soon!
EDIT: I think pro gamers should think about insuring their hands. It's what pro musicians do, because if shit like that happens and they lose a little mobility in their fingers their career is over.
As i have first hand experience of not being able to perform my job thru a franctured elbow i picked up while wrestling with my dad, I know just how easily these things happen. I did a hip throw and landed on my elbow, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Demuslim, but bad enough.
I had been drinking, wasn't drunk but wan't sober and probably shouldn't have been messing about, but I couldn't play a guitar for months and my band lost literally thousands of pounds in work.... were they pissed off about it? Sure.... did they kick me out of the band.... fuck no. This stuff happens and just because people have invested time and money in you doesn't make you beholdent to them.
I am sure EG aren't happy about it, I wouldn't be, but I guess neither is Demuslim since he can't earn any money until he is healed. Depending on what arm it is and his mouse/keyboard technique he shuold be able to start playing again pretty soon, the only reason I was unable to play guitar for so long was that I didn't have the range of motion in my left arm (the one you do all the work with) and you dont really need much range of motion to use a PC, the disabled guy who plays SC2 has shown that, and hand fractures heal really fast so he should be able to use a keyboard or mouse with no issues pretty soon. Hands injuries aren't as bad as people think, only if its a particularly bad break will he have any issues
Maybe this is a european thing, but going out and having a few drinks then getting in a fight isn't a big deal. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, sometimes people just won't let you walk away without a good shove, usually you get up and walk away without injury.... this time Demuslim was unlucky and fell on one of the most delicate parts of the body, you elbow isn't designed to take all your weight, when I fractured mine I fell on soft grass for gods sake ;p
You don't think a team spending thousands of dollars for travel and lodging of a player who then goes a breaks his arm isn't a big deal? The fact is that whenever Demuslim can return to practicing, he is almost guaranteed to further injure his arm in a permanent fashion because he will try to over practice his starcraft to make up for lost time. It looks as if short term now he was a bad investment from a business standpoint and long term, he know has an even more uphill battle as a foreigner competing vs koreans. Its a lose lose situation all around, just more proof that life has no consideration for the plans that we make. [/QUOTE]
You completely contradicted yourself in Paragraph 1 and Paragraph 3.
I'm sure he will give it enough time to heal up completely, I broke my arm when a few years back and I had no problems with it once i got the cast off and it was healed.
I'm sure he will give it enough time to heal proplerly
You don't think a team spending thousands of dollars for travel and lodging of a player who then goes a breaks his arm isn't a big deal? The fact is that whenever Demuslim can return to practicing, he is almost guaranteed to further injure his arm in a permanent fashion because he will try to over practice his starcraft to make up for lost time. It looks as if short term now he was a bad investment from a business standpoint and long term, he know has an even more uphill battle as a foreigner competing vs koreans. Its a lose lose situation all around, just more proof that life has no consideration for the plans that we make.
I'm sure he will give it enough time to heal up completely, I broke my arm when a few years back and I had no problems with it once i got the cast off and it was healed.
I'm sure he will give it enough time to heal proplerly[/QUOTE]
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
As i have first hand experience of not being able to perform my job thru a franctured elbow i picked up while wrestling with my dad, I know just how easily these things happen. I did a hip throw and landed on my elbow, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Demuslim, but bad enough.
I had been drinking, wasn't drunk but wan't sober and probably shouldn't have been messing about, but I couldn't play a guitar for months and my band lost literally thousands of pounds in work.... were they pissed off about it? Sure.... did they kick me out of the band.... fuck no. This stuff happens and just because people have invested time and money in you doesn't make you beholdent to them.
I am sure EG aren't happy about it, I wouldn't be, but I guess neither is Demuslim since he can't earn any money until he is healed. Depending on what arm it is and his mouse/keyboard technique he shuold be able to start playing again pretty soon, the only reason I was unable to play guitar for so long was that I didn't have the range of motion in my left arm (the one you do all the work with) and you dont really need much range of motion to use a PC, the disabled guy who plays SC2 has shown that, and hand fractures heal really fast so he should be able to use a keyboard or mouse with no issues pretty soon. Hands injuries aren't as bad as people think, only if its a particularly bad break will he have any issues
Maybe this is a european thing, but going out and having a few drinks then getting in a fight isn't a big deal. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, sometimes people just won't let you walk away without a good shove, usually you get up and walk away without injury.... this time Demuslim was unlucky and fell on one of the most delicate parts of the body, you elbow isn't designed to take all your weight, when I fractured mine I fell on soft grass for gods sake ;p
You don't think a team spending thousands of dollars for travel and lodging of a player who then goes a breaks his arm isn't a big deal? The fact is that whenever Demuslim can return to practicing, he is almost guaranteed to further injure his arm in a permanent fashion because he will try to over practice his starcraft to make up for lost time. It looks as if short term now he was a bad investment from a business standpoint and long term, he know has an even more uphill battle as a foreigner competing vs koreans. Its a lose lose situation all around, just more proof that life has no consideration for the plans that we make.
What?
I think Demuslim knows his own body well enough to not reinjure himself in 45hour practice session.
I love all the random speculation, but i guess thats what you get when you mix the words broken hand and skirmish , get well soon demuslim hope you can start owning again asap!
I think Demuslim knows his own body well enough to not reinjure himself in 45hour practice session. [/QUOTE]
The issue isn't how well he knows his body. The fact that his peers (both foreign and koreans) are training 12 hours a day and continually improving is why this has such a huge effect. He was already obviously behind skill wise in certain departments. I'm sure that he can return in a few weeks and begin playing again, but his arm wont be in the condition to remotely match the amount of hours that go into the game each day by a pro korean. So when trying to catch up skill wise, and also being disadvantaged in terms of practice come into effect because of the injury, it is actually a pretty serious blow to his gaming career (obviously not to his prior achievements). His self determination and perseverance must be stronger then ever to get through the next few months.
On February 04 2011 02:47 hifriend wrote: why does every tl thread have to turn into a debate?
makes the forums more interesting that way
true. but the stuff in this thread really makes no sense at all. "progamers arent allowed to go out! omg drinking so unprofessional! omg hes injured,hes worthless now eg should shoot him!"
maybe in the world of a 14 yr old nerd that never went out and never followed sports this makes sense somehow. for evryone else those statements are so stupid its funny again.
clampOK, this could be true but its not like hes cut out from all practice. you can do alot in sc2 to improve your game even without playing. and i guess it depends on his exact condition if the injury will be a problem for longer.
really hope the best for him. such a cool guy and good player.
Professional Athletes get injured all the time and often times for work-unrelated reasons... remember a pro-cyclist falling of a ladder when he wanted to water some plants in a hanging basket a week before the Tour de France started. He will be more cautious next time, but a few lost weeks are hardly a tragedy. Especially as he from what I read just broke his elbow and didn't injure sinews of his fingers or something which could be way more problematic.
wow, all the people being so negative about "demuslim's unprofessional behaviour" make me sick. yes it's bad for him and the team that he was unlucky enough to fall and break his elbow/hand, but hell, that could've happened anywhere. you can't tell people to never leave the house, just because they are professional gamers. <_<
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
imagine you pay someone to do something.
imagine that person got drunk and irresponsibly broke a limb, making them unable to do that something you pay them to do.
a boss in the real world would force him to take unpaid leave, holidays or just get rid of that person for good and replace him with someone more responsible.
of course it's different if you work for a big cooperation... most of which consist of a bunch of slackers, making easy money, ripping people off with monopoly or taking easy money from the government.
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
As i have first hand experience of not being able to perform my job thru a franctured elbow i picked up while wrestling with my dad, I know just how easily these things happen. I did a hip throw and landed on my elbow, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Demuslim, but bad enough.
I had been drinking, wasn't drunk but wan't sober and probably shouldn't have been messing about, but I couldn't play a guitar for months and my band lost literally thousands of pounds in work.... were they pissed off about it? Sure.... did they kick me out of the band.... fuck no. This stuff happens and just because people have invested time and money in you doesn't make you beholdent to them.
I am sure EG aren't happy about it, I wouldn't be, but I guess neither is Demuslim since he can't earn any money until he is healed. Depending on what arm it is and his mouse/keyboard technique he shuold be able to start playing again pretty soon, the only reason I was unable to play guitar for so long was that I didn't have the range of motion in my left arm (the one you do all the work with) and you dont really need much range of motion to use a PC, the disabled guy who plays SC2 has shown that, and hand fractures heal really fast so he should be able to use a keyboard or mouse with no issues pretty soon. Hands injuries aren't as bad as people think, only if its a particularly bad break will he have any issues
Maybe this is a european thing, but going out and having a few drinks then getting in a fight isn't a big deal. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, sometimes people just won't let you walk away without a good shove, usually you get up and walk away without injury.... this time Demuslim was unlucky and fell on one of the most delicate parts of the body, you elbow isn't designed to take all your weight, when I fractured mine I fell on soft grass for gods sake ;p
You don't think a team spending thousands of dollars for travel and lodging of a player who then goes a breaks his arm isn't a big deal?
No not really. Shit happens, it's unfortunate for EG and most of all Ben but what can you do about it? I bet you're far more likely to break an arm when riding a bike than going to a pub, are you suggesting progamers shouldn't ride bikes as well?
On February 04 2011 02:50 clampOK wrote: I'm sure that he can return in a few weeks and begin playing again, but his arm wont be in the condition to remotely match the amount of hours that go into the game each day by a pro korean. So when trying to catch up skill wise, and also being disadvantaged in terms of practice come into effect because of the injury, it is actually a pretty serious blow to his gaming career (obviously not to his prior achievements). His self determination and perseverance must be stronger then ever to get through the next few months.
Fear not. Doctors & physiotherapist in Germany actually know what they're doing. And you dont need hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay them (German healthcare ftw!).
Drunken brawls and bar fights aren't funny, cute, honorable, or natural. They're fucking retarded and I've seen people die in them. I think it's sad that the UK has a culture where they think it's a cool/manly/hilarious thing to do. People can die from a single punch. Why the fuck in this day and age would you think it's cool to still act like a caveman and flail your limbs around trying to hurt people?
Tbh, the smartest thing to do is inform the bouncers and get the other guy ejected. Or just leave yourself, since a lot of morons like to hang around in the parking lot for hours hoping you come out so they can assault you. That's probably why I don't go to bars. It's like Hi, I'd love to spend lots of money on overpriced and shitty drinks so I can congregate in an area with a 99% chance of having retards.
On February 04 2011 02:06 ondik wrote: also lol at everyone saying "that's ok because he should have life" on the one hand and spewing crap about ESPORTS and how it should be taken seriously as real sports on the other hand.
so professional sports players don't drink.... "opens newspaper to see the football players snapped drunk in a bar this week".
and why do you see them drunk in newspaper? because they shouldn't fucking do it. Or do you want to tell me it's normal for athletes to "have life" - get drunk every week? Many of player's contracts were terminated because they didn't comply with the regimen (not sure if this expression's right, but u get the point)
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
imagine you pay someone to do something.
imagine that person got drunk and irresponsibly broke a limb, making them unable to do that something you pay them to do.
a boss in the real world would force him to take unpaid leave, holidays or just get rid of that person for good and replace him with someone more responsible.
of course it's different if you work for a big cooperation... most of which consist of a bunch of slackers, making easy money, ripping people off with monopoly or taking easy money from the government.
firstoff "irresponsibly" is just an assumption. i got in fights too where i did nothing wrong(and some where i did something wrong...). it just happens sometimes.
also i doubt something like you describe is common at all. in any normal job you wont get kicked out or whatever if you get hurt. it pretty much doesnt matter in which situation it happened. maybe if you just work as part time waitress or got hired for that one project but in a normal situation nothing bad will happen.
On February 04 2011 03:05 Aim Here wrote: Obviously DeMuslim fell over because of all that Terran imbalance...
<ducks>
(Sorry, but the pun was irresistible. Any replies about actual Starcraft game balance aren't welcome, obviously.)
the first balance comment/joke that i found acceptable and funny in weeks. :>
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
imagine you pay someone to do something.
imagine that person got drunk and irresponsibly broke a limb, making them unable to do that something you pay them to do.
a boss in the real world would force him to take unpaid leave, holidays or just get rid of that person for good and replace him with someone more responsible.
of course it's different if you work for a big cooperation... most of which consist of a bunch of slackers, making easy money, ripping people off with monopoly or taking easy money from the government.
firstoff "irresponsibly" is just an assumption. i got in fights too where i did nothing wrong(and some where i did something wrong...). it just happens sometimes.
also i doubt something like you describe is common at all. in any normal job you wont get kicked out or whatever if you get hurt. it pretty much doesnt matter in which situation it happened. maybe if you just work as part time waitress or got hired for that one project but in a normal situation nothing bad will happen.
Nah, he's right. That's how it worked in coal mines during the 19th century after all I'm sure the working conditions within team Evil Geniuses are comparable.
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
As i have first hand experience of not being able to perform my job thru a franctured elbow i picked up while wrestling with my dad, I know just how easily these things happen. I did a hip throw and landed on my elbow, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Demuslim, but bad enough.
I had been drinking, wasn't drunk but wan't sober and probably shouldn't have been messing about, but I couldn't play a guitar for months and my band lost literally thousands of pounds in work.... were they pissed off about it? Sure.... did they kick me out of the band.... fuck no. This stuff happens and just because people have invested time and money in you doesn't make you beholdent to them.
I am sure EG aren't happy about it, I wouldn't be, but I guess neither is Demuslim since he can't earn any money until he is healed. Depending on what arm it is and his mouse/keyboard technique he shuold be able to start playing again pretty soon, the only reason I was unable to play guitar for so long was that I didn't have the range of motion in my left arm (the one you do all the work with) and you dont really need much range of motion to use a PC, the disabled guy who plays SC2 has shown that, and hand fractures heal really fast so he should be able to use a keyboard or mouse with no issues pretty soon. Hands injuries aren't as bad as people think, only if its a particularly bad break will he have any issues
Maybe this is a european thing, but going out and having a few drinks then getting in a fight isn't a big deal. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, sometimes people just won't let you walk away without a good shove, usually you get up and walk away without injury.... this time Demuslim was unlucky and fell on one of the most delicate parts of the body, you elbow isn't designed to take all your weight, when I fractured mine I fell on soft grass for gods sake ;p
You don't think a team spending thousands of dollars for travel and lodging of a player who then goes a breaks his arm isn't a big deal?
No not really. Shit happens, it's unfortunate for EG and most of all Ben but what can you do about it? I bet you're far more likely to break an arm when riding a bike than going to a pub, are you suggesting progamers shouldn't ride bikes as well?
Some here are so full of themself.
That is how it works in the US. Professional athletes have prohibitions written into their contracts. When you're paying a baseball player 15 million dollars a year, you don't want them tearing an Achilles playing a pickup game of basketball. Then, if they do, you don't have to pay them.
As for DeMusliM, I really hope it heals correctly. There's no guarantee with a broken hand that it'll be right again. :\ I don't think it's immoral and "professional" is a nebulous term that doesn't seem to describe most professionals, but I do think it was a dumb move. But it's not really uncommon for someone to make an idiot out of themselves when they go to the bar.
lol, starcraft2 joins the ranks of other professional sports with it's competitors being injured and missing games due to drunken brawls. Now just get busted for running a dog-fighting ring and it's like american sports!
On February 04 2011 03:09 bahl sofs tiil wrote: Man, leave it to a bunch of nerds to ruin a thread about a professional video game player getting into a bar fight.
Yeah, what a shame. I mean, if we were cool guys we'd turn up the Eminem track on our ipod and fistpump his streetside heroics.
On February 04 2011 03:09 bahl sofs tiil wrote: Man, leave it to a bunch of nerds to ruin a thread about a professional video game player getting into a bar fight.
Yeah, what a shame. I mean, if we were cool guys we'd turn up the Eminem track on our ipod and fistpump his streetside heroics.
Or you could get over it, stuff happens that you just have to work around.
On February 04 2011 02:06 ondik wrote: also lol at everyone saying "that's ok because he should have life" on the one hand and spewing crap about ESPORTS and how it should be taken seriously as real sports on the other hand.
so professional sports players don't drink.... "opens newspaper to see the football players snapped drunk in a bar this week".
and why do you see them drunk in newspaper? because they shouldn't fucking do it. Or do you want to tell me it's normal for athletes to "have life" - get drunk every week? Many of player's contracts were terminated because they didn't comply with the regimen (not sure if this expression's right, but u get the point)
You see them drunk in the newspaper because they are stalked by paparazzi. The terminated contracts is from not doing their job (not showing up to team practice etc.), not because of what they do in their free time.
If something like this happens again, just lie about slipping in the bathroom, so the critics do not have to get so angry and can feel better about life and stuff.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
So sportsmen and women never go out and get drunk then do something they regret in the morning? I know my fav Striker Jermaine Defoe has done that on multiple occasions..... he's been out with an ankle injury from falling over while drunk before now...
I could list off god knows how many professional sportmen, businessmen, politicians, musicians (including me) who have gotten into a fight while drunk and not been able to work for a few weeks with some kinds of injury.
Its not unprofessional to be human, they have lives that we don't have a part in.... they play this game for themselves, not for you. your judgements about their behaviour won't stop them from doing what they want, nor should it
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
So he should never cross the street either, since there is a risk he'll get run over. Probably shouldnt take a shower either since there is a risk he will slip and fall over and in the shower that might very well kill him with floors usually being quite hard and what not. Do you realise how silly you sound?
Yes, you can extrapolate that situation to its clearly ridiculous and absurd extremes if you'd like.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
what are you serious??? basically what your saying is its his own fault for having a life and being out in the real world, so lets say it wasn't a fight and he was out drinking and got mugged on the way home. by your fucking moronic logic would that be same or different to you ?
I'm sure some people live in a bubble void of what actually happens in the real world! "LOL HE HAS A LIFE" and "LOL I GOT DRUKN" aren't excuses. EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
You should really watch out getting into forum arguments man, might end up causing some disagreeing sociopath jumping you or who knows. What would your employer say about that?
On February 04 2011 03:05 Aim Here wrote: Obviously DeMuslim fell over because of all that Terran imbalance...
<ducks>
(Sorry, but the pun was irresistible. Any replies about actual Starcraft game balance aren't welcome, obviously.)
This joke and the amazing good manner with which it was posted almost makes up for the clusterfuck that is the rest of the thread. Well done sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
Regardless, get better soon Demuslim! Get your medics working on that hand .
I typically like to respond post-by-post (I don't feel comfortable passing up someone who has taken the time out of their day to respond to what I had to say), but it's probably necessary to explain my point of view in a single post. Just note that the body of this post is now forty-five minutes old (got caught up on the phone), but I hope it gets the point across.
This entire forum and this entire community is built on the premise that professional gaming should be taken seriously and it should be a sport. Well, I'm a pretty damn big sports fan, too. In traditional sports, athletes get shitcanned by both the media, their teammates, and their fans for harming their team by their own reckless accord. Ben Roethlisberger was a complete idiot for wrecking a motorcycle and almost destroying his career. Frank Mir was a complete idiot for driving a motorcycle and almost getting himself killed. Most professional athletes sign contracts that do not let them drive motorcycles because it is a calculated risk that professional sports clubs are not willing to take.
Based on what everybody has told me so far, competitive gamers would not be endangering themselves and their livelihood by driving a motorcycle because "live a little, Mike!" No. That's not how it works. I don't have a problem with people drinking. My problem was that people are going into this thread and basically excusing shitty behavior because "LOL I WAS DRUKN". Drinking is not the variable here. It just happened to be what DeMusliM was doing when he got injured. If this thread was "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball" or "DeMusliM breaks hand punching wall", it would have been equally as stupid. Several years back, the Warcraft III player Moon broke his hand after he "got into an accident in the hotel lobby of the Ramada Hotel. The result of the accident was a broken arm to the Korean player, who was rushed to the hospital." Was that stupid? No. It happens. It was an accident. "Getting into a fight at the bar" was not an accident because DeMusliM made the conscious decision to go to that bar and put himself in a position of calculated risk. By the words of the people posting in this thread, he made a calculated risk.
On February 04 2011 01:43 gparent wrote: People who are claiming this cannot possibly happen if you are careful probably haven't been outside on their own in the first place. I don't know if you ever went to a bar, Michael, but you don't have to start a fight for it to happen to you. In extreme cases, someone looking for one will get it, no matter how "professional" you are about it.
On February 04 2011 02:04 Tanith wrote:
I'l happily debate otherwise if/when the facts are known as to how the fight happened, i seriously doubt he was out on the town randomly picking fights with people (thats stupid) but a fight kicking off and defending yourself or perhaps sticking up for friends (who knows) is not stupid at all, we've all been there, go for a night out where I live and you'll see it happening in every fuckin pub!
If Team EG has anyone associated with their organization who knows what they're doing, there's a clause somewhere in DeMusliM's contract (or working agreement or whatever) that they could void his services for something like this. Are they going to use it on the first strike? It doesn't look that way. Could they have? Absolutely. DeMusliM made a calculated risk and, at best, he's going to pay for it by losing critical practice time. At worst, the hand may not heal properly and his career may be over.
You guys are all telling me that I need to lighten up and need to understand that "it happens". No, I'm just being consistent. I'm taking what I know about sports and applying it to a similar amateur-pro endeavor. I don't care if you're a professional athlete or a competitive gamer or some guy working forty hours a week driving a truck. If it's your job, treat it like it's your job. Don't throw your hands up in the air and say "it happens". And likewise goes for the entire competitive gaming scene. If competitive gaming is your job, you treat it like your job. ondik alluded to it earlier in the thread: You can't claim "e-sports is serious business" and then claim it's okay for someone to put their livelihood in that business at risk in the name of "living it up a little". Fans, owners, and teammates in professional sports don't tolerate it. The only reason I can see people on TeamLiquid tolerating it is because the community is so tight-knit with a number of these guys. I'm quite new to these boards. Nothing the pro gamer community on this forum has done suggests to be they're bad people. Nothing. But business is business and I'm looking at this from a business perspective. From a business perspective, DeMusliM did the wrong thing.
On February 04 2011 03:02 StorkHwaiting wrote: Drunken brawls and bar fights aren't funny, cute, honorable, or natural. They're fucking retarded and I've seen people die in them. I think it's sad that the UK has a culture where they think it's a cool/manly/hilarious thing to do. People can die from a single punch. Why the fuck in this day and age would you think it's cool to still act like a caveman and flail your limbs around trying to hurt people?
I've spent 70% of my life in the UK and the rest in America, and I can say despite the huge amount of drunken violence here I still feel much safer in the UK. While I don't defend rampant acts of vandalizism or idiocy, there are points where people need to get punched in the face. Whatever some upper class politicians here will tell you, England and Scotland have long histories of brawling, it's been part of the 'pub' culture for a very long time. I can also tell you I feel ALOT safer here than in the USA.
You know why? Very few people here actually get killed as a result of drunken assaults, if you compare it to say gun crime in the states, or drug related stuff in central London and Manchester.
We can apply the 'why in this day and age X' to an awful lot of human activity. I don't mean to engage in American bashing (as I am one) but seriously, can any of us comment on the violent culture of another society? We're armed to the goddamn teeth. Talking about the danger of a culture where barfights can be perceived as normal while living in a place where all my friends and family own hand guns just feels like too much of a 'log in thine own eye' kinda deal.
I'm not trying to change the debate the debate to guncontrol, I'm just saying that every nation has it's own 'eccentricities' and UK (and Ireland's) obsession with barfights is one of them. You can do much, much worse.
On February 04 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote: That is how it works in the US. Professional athletes have prohibitions written into their contracts. When you're paying a baseball player 15 million dollars a year, you don't want them tearing an Achilles playing a pickup game of basketball. Then, if they do, you don't have to pay them.
As for DeMusliM, I really hope it heals correctly. There's no guarantee with a broken hand that it'll be right again. :\ I don't think it's immoral and "professional" is a nebulous term that doesn't seem to describe most professionals, but I do think it was a dumb move. But it's not really uncommon for someone to make an idiot out of themselves when they go to the bar.
Not only in the US, i think it's everywhere. If you're a high level athlete you don't go around trying to break your limbs, I'm not saying that's what happen, but you don't need to earn 15 million dollars a year to be yelled at, or put on the bench or fired, if you can't play because you weren't careful enough.
Anyway, good luck to him, and let's hope the rehabilitation goes well.
eg bought demuslim no? theyre obv in it for the long term with him, this is just a small hiccup in the long road ahead for them, so its no biggy in the grand scheme of things ?
MichaelJLowell - If anything , this seriousness and extreme strict professional approach will hurt esports and esport fanbase more than a few beers demuslim had. Obviously esports means "no fun allowed" and these 20 yo kids should live like a 40yo family father , home to work , back to home right? Kids all over the world will be dying to watch those guys , no doubt
On February 04 2011 03:34 MichaelJLowell wrote: I don't have a problem with people drinking. My problem was that people are going into this thread and basically excusing shitty behavior because "LOL I WAS DRUKN". Drinking is not the variable here. It just happened to be what DeMusliM was doing when he got injured. If this thread was "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball" or "DeMusliM breaks hand punching wall", it would have been equally as stupid. [...] It was an accident. "Getting into a fight at the bar" was not an accident because DeMusliM made the conscious decision to go to that bar and put himself in a position of calculated risk. By the words of the people posting in this thread, he made a calculated risk.
[/b]
Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened? Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen. So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed.
Well so long as he has a contractual obligation, engaging in risky behavior could always be perceived as being "unprofessional" whether it's something we might otherwise consider to be normal human behavior or not. Professionalism has nothing to do with behaving like a normal person. If anything, it often conflicts with these instincts and behaviors. The fact that plenty of athletes engage in unprofessional behavior is also not an valid argument for that behavior not being unprofessional. It just means that a lot of athletes are unprofessional, which is not surprising that they're selected primarily for their skill rather than their manner or professionalism. Usually teams and organizations are willing to tolerate a certain degree of unprofessional behavior from their players so long as their contributions to the team's success outweigh the detriment to the team's image.
Obviously I don't know the details of Demuslim's contract, but I'd describe the incident overall to be unprofessional simply because it was an irresponsible risk from a career standpoint regardless of contractual clauses. Hopefully he'll recover just fine, but as with any activity on a professional level, you never know. It's not like we haven't seen incidents of accidents and surgeries destroying careers before. Sometimes the smallest thing can change and things are just never the same. I do hope he takes better care of himself in the future since he is an entertaining player to have in the scene.
If an athlete goes out and drinks and "does something they regret in the morning", then yes, they're absolute complete idiots. Especially when other people have invested a lot of time and money in you, enough time and money that most of those employers set up very convenient ways to void your services if "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND". DeMusliM should be thankful that EG isn't telling him to go find another team to play for.
As i have first hand experience of not being able to perform my job thru a franctured elbow i picked up while wrestling with my dad, I know just how easily these things happen. I did a hip throw and landed on my elbow, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Demuslim, but bad enough.
I had been drinking, wasn't drunk but wan't sober and probably shouldn't have been messing about, but I couldn't play a guitar for months and my band lost literally thousands of pounds in work.... were they pissed off about it? Sure.... did they kick me out of the band.... fuck no. This stuff happens and just because people have invested time and money in you doesn't make you beholdent to them.
I am sure EG aren't happy about it, I wouldn't be, but I guess neither is Demuslim since he can't earn any money until he is healed. Depending on what arm it is and his mouse/keyboard technique he shuold be able to start playing again pretty soon, the only reason I was unable to play guitar for so long was that I didn't have the range of motion in my left arm (the one you do all the work with) and you dont really need much range of motion to use a PC, the disabled guy who plays SC2 has shown that, and hand fractures heal really fast so he should be able to use a keyboard or mouse with no issues pretty soon. Hands injuries aren't as bad as people think, only if its a particularly bad break will he have any issues
Maybe this is a european thing, but going out and having a few drinks then getting in a fight isn't a big deal. No matter how hard you try to avoid it, sometimes people just won't let you walk away without a good shove, usually you get up and walk away without injury.... this time Demuslim was unlucky and fell on one of the most delicate parts of the body, you elbow isn't designed to take all your weight, when I fractured mine I fell on soft grass for gods sake ;p
You don't think a team spending thousands of dollars for travel and lodging of a player who then goes a breaks his arm isn't a big deal?
No not really. Shit happens, it's unfortunate for EG and most of all Ben but what can you do about it? I bet you're far more likely to break an arm when riding a bike than going to a pub, are you suggesting progamers shouldn't ride bikes as well?
Some here are so full of themself.
That is how it works in the US. Professional athletes have prohibitions written into their contracts. When you're paying a baseball player 15 million dollars a year, you don't want them tearing an Achilles playing a pickup game of basketball. Then, if they do, you don't have to pay them.
Of course but as long as a gamer barely makes 1 or so % of those salaries you can't make such demands and it's specifically stated in the contracts.
On February 04 2011 03:41 Tiax;mous wrote: MichaelJLowell - If anything , this seriousness and extreme strict professional approach will hurt esports and esport fanbase more than a few beers demuslim had. Obviously esports means "no fun allowed" and these 20 yo kids should live like a 40yo family father , home to work , back to home right? Kids all over the world will be dying to watch those guys , no doubt
E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them.
On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote: Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened? Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen. So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed.
On February 04 2011 02:10 Asha` wrote: According to Rotti on stream:
There was an unfortunate alteraction with some drunk guys, demu got pushed/punched and fell on his elbow
He'll likely be out of hospital on Monday, is fortunately showing good improvements already
With proper rehab he could be able to start playing again after 2-3 weeks or so
Are you now going to tell me that Rotterdam isn't a reliable source because he was drinking at the time?
On February 04 2011 03:41 Tiax;mous wrote: MichaelJLowell - If anything , this seriousness and extreme strict professional approach will hurt esports and esport fanbase more than a few beers demuslim had. Obviously esports means "no fun allowed" and these 20 yo kids should live like a 40yo family father , home to work , back to home right? Kids all over the world will be dying to watch those guys , no doubt
E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them.
On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote: Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened? Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen. So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed.
Some of you guys seroiusly need to lighten up, lol. Almost everyone goes out and has a good time every once in a while. Sometimes shit happens, its part of life. If you aren't going out and enjoying life, then whats the point?
MichaelJLowell - Yea of course his employer can/may fire him if it is in his contract , noone is arguing about that. The problem is you're trying to make him look like he raped the soul of this serious esports business and he should be crucified etc etc. Or maybe you haven't noticed that , you've been preaching for like 10 pages about how irresponsible and stupid he is , while everyone was kindly wishing him well ? Chill down man...
E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them.
Can't speak for America, but over here an employer isn't allowed to fire you on the basis that you were assaulted and injured.
Yeah, I called it "assault". Why not? It's not like we know anything except the fact that Demuslim was pushed and injured. Are you really saying that's a good enough excuse to fire someone?
That said neither I nor you know any details of Demuslims contract. You're making a lot of assumptions based on even more assumptions. But hey, everyone right online and everyone has their God given right to prove it
On February 04 2011 03:52 Malhorn wrote: Some of you guys seroiusly need to lighten up, lol. Almost everyone goes out and has a good time every once in a while. Sometimes shit happens, its part of life. If you aren't going out and enjoying life, then whats the point?
No fun allowed is the solid foundation e-sports will be built upon, didn't you know? If not you can most definitely learn it lurking these forums!
MichaelJLowell you should stop posting. You dont seem to have a clear mind on your own. Maybe drunk? So pls just stop and dont annoy people here.... It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar. You have a higher chance to get an injury from sports i think and thats something everyone should do . Remember he did not fight but Fall.... You can fall everywhere. So pls stop to annoy like a little bitch and apologize to the people here for xour behavior.
On February 04 2011 03:41 Tiax;mous wrote: MichaelJLowell - If anything , this seriousness and extreme strict professional approach will hurt esports and esport fanbase more than a few beers demuslim had. Obviously esports means "no fun allowed" and these 20 yo kids should live like a 40yo family father , home to work , back to home right? Kids all over the world will be dying to watch those guys , no doubt
E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them.
On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote: Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened? Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen. So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed.
On February 04 2011 02:10 Asha` wrote: According to Rotti on stream:
There was an unfortunate alteraction with some drunk guys, demu got pushed/punched and fell on his elbow
He'll likely be out of hospital on Monday, is fortunately showing good improvements already
With proper rehab he could be able to start playing again after 2-3 weeks or so
Are you now going to tell me that Rotterdam isn't a reliable source because he was drinking at the time?
It's a dumb move on your part just discrediting DeMuslim for being unprofessional with not enough circumstancial evidence.
We just don't know how exactly the incident occurred, and judging purely from the outcome is simply unacceptable.
I'll repeat the posts that I quoted earlier in the thread, bolded for emphasis:
On February 04 2011 02:04 Tanith wrote: I'l happily debate otherwise if/when the facts are known as to how the fight happened, i seriously doubt he was out on the town randomly picking fights with people (thats stupid) but a fight kicking off and defending yourself or perhaps sticking up for friends (who knows) is not stupid at all, we've all been there, go for a night out where I live and you'll see it happening in every fuckin pub!
On February 04 2011 01:43 gparent wrote: People who are claiming this cannot possibly happen if you are careful probably haven't been outside on their own in the first place. I don't know if you ever went to a bar, Michael, but you don't have to start a fight for it to happen to you. In extreme cases, someone looking for one will get it, no matter how "professional" you are about it.
We've established that he was at a bar and he was drinking. People in this thread defending DeMusliM have acknowledged the danger involved. I don't think Team EG cares whether or not there was a risk involved. They just know one of their players has a broken hand because of that risk.
On February 04 2011 03:55 Tiax;mous wrote: MichaelJLowell - Yea of course his employer can/may fire him if it is in his contract , noone is arguing about that. The problem is you're trying to make him look like he raped the soul of this serious esports business etc etc. Or maybe you haven't noticed that , you've been preaching for like 10 pages about how irresponsible and stupid he is , while everyone was kindly wishing him well ? Chill down man...
Don't worry...
On February 04 2011 00:14 meRz wrote: T_T Get well Ben! Looks like you went too loco this time man :/!
Hope to see you back in action soon!
On February 04 2011 00:16 moNsi wrote:get better soon! )
must have been kinda drunk tho :p falling, not noticing untill later etc
On February 04 2011 00:18 FireBlast! wrote: Represent!
On February 04 2011 00:20 zatic wrote: It's hard out there for a pimp. Cologne gangster life is tough.
On February 04 2011 00:24 pompey606 wrote: Ben is a true Brit. Never been more proud!
On February 04 2011 00:28 rolfe wrote: Poor guy, couldn't have happened at a worse time really. still a true brit!
This is sad news indeed. Hope he gets better soon and is able to return to top-form reasonable quickly. Demuslim was always one of those players I expected might own up just about any tournament.
On February 04 2011 03:34 MichaelJLowell wrote: Several years back, the Warcraft III player Moon broke his hand after he "got into an accident in the hotel lobby of the Ramada Hotel. The result of the accident was a broken arm to the Korean player, who was rushed to the hospital." Was that stupid? No. It happens. It was an accident.
No it doesn't happen. It was a calculated risk, and to be honest quite an unprofessional one. Moon should have been wearing protective arm gear (similar to that employed in several fighting sports) to protect his arms in the event of an accident. To be honest even walking by himself was sort of irresponsible as he knew there was a risk he would fall, or get knocked over, and it could result in injury. Ideally he should have done the professional thing and stayed in his room or been transported in a protected vechicle (wheelchair or something like it inside). Ever seen president Obama just walk down the street? No, because he understands the risk of walking by himself so he employs armored vechicles and a security detail. He is professional.
"Getting into a fight at the bar" was not an accident because DeMusliM made the conscious decision to go to that bar and put himself in a position of calculated risk. By the words of the people posting in this thread, he made a calculated risk.
He went to a bar and consumed alcohol, those were the risks he were taking. There is no evidence that DeMuslim entered into a fight, so that was an accident. Going to a bar usually is safe if you do not seek out trouble, so it is a reasonable risk to take just like shaking hands, riding a bike, walking down the street or being in a car are all risky, but in a reasonable way. If EG feels he need to be so protective of himself that he needs a curfew, then I doubt many gamers would be interested in playing for EG.
BTW you do realize Incontrol tackled qxc at an MLG event right? Why haven't EG fired him yet? Compared to DeMuslim's risky actions of going to a bar this seems much more dangerous. Maybe they could fire both of them (mostly due to a lack of player rights), but why would they be such a strict team? They may safe a months salary on Demuslim, but no other pro is going to want to sign a contract with them if they treat their players like that.
On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote: Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened? Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen. So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed.
On February 04 2011 02:10 Asha` wrote: According to Rotti on stream:
There was an unfortunate alteraction with some drunk guys, demu got pushed/punched and fell on his elbow
He'll likely be out of hospital on Monday, is fortunately showing good improvements already
With proper rehab he could be able to start playing again after 2-3 weeks or so
Are you now going to tell me that Rotterdam isn't a reliable source because he was drinking at the time?
I only read the OP. The OP clearly states they went drinking AFTER the incident. Do you have additional sources where Rotterdam claims that Demuslim was drinking at/prior the time (of the incident)?
If yes, I stand corrected and would really like to read those sources.
On February 04 2011 03:41 Tiax;mous wrote: MichaelJLowell - If anything , this seriousness and extreme strict professional approach will hurt esports and esport fanbase more than a few beers demuslim had. Obviously esports means "no fun allowed" and these 20 yo kids should live like a 40yo family father , home to work , back to home right? Kids all over the world will be dying to watch those guys , no doubt
E-sports also means that if you break your hand in something that can't be called "an accident", the employer probably has the right to fire you. If the players want to take that risk, let them.
On February 04 2011 03:42 Zocat wrote: Where do you get your information from that "drinking" was the thing Demuslim was doing when it happened? Where do you get your information from that it was "a barfight"?
You just assume things; the OP even suggests, that he was on his way to the bar when the "fight" happened? (Read: "which he didn't notice until later, though, they went drinking first").
So it would be "He was on his way to a bar" which translates to "he was walking through the city at time X", because I assume destination wasnt relevant for the incident to happen. So according to your logic he shouldnt walk around the city at time X.
And many people disagree with that conclusion. And therefore say your logic is flawed.
On February 04 2011 02:10 Asha` wrote: According to Rotti on stream:
There was an unfortunate alteraction with some drunk guys, demu got pushed/punched and fell on his elbow
He'll likely be out of hospital on Monday, is fortunately showing good improvements already
With proper rehab he could be able to start playing again after 2-3 weeks or so
Are you now going to tell me that Rotterdam isn't a reliable source because he was drinking at the time?
It's a dumb move on your part just discrediting DeMuslim for being unprofessional with not enough circumstancial evidence.
We just don't know how exactly the incident occurred, and judging purely from the outcome is simply unacceptable.
I'll repeat the posts that I quoted earlier in the thread, bolded for emphasis:
On February 04 2011 02:04 Tanith wrote: I'l happily debate otherwise if/when the facts are known as to how the fight happened, i seriously doubt he was out on the town randomly picking fights with people (thats stupid) but a fight kicking off and defending yourself or perhaps sticking up for friends (who knows) is not stupid at all, we've all been there, go for a night out where I live and you'll see it happening in every fuckin pub!
On February 04 2011 01:43 gparent wrote: People who are claiming this cannot possibly happen if you are careful probably haven't been outside on their own in the first place. I don't know if you ever went to a bar, Michael, but you don't have to start a fight for it to happen to you. In extreme cases, someone looking for one will get it, no matter how "professional" you are about it.
We've established that he was at a bar and he was drinking. People in this thread defending DeMusliM have acknowledged the danger involved. I don't think Team EG cares whether or not there was a risk involved. They just know one of their players has a broken hand because of that risk.
On February 04 2011 03:55 Tiax;mous wrote: MichaelJLowell - Yea of course his employer can/may fire him if it is in his contract , noone is arguing about that. The problem is you're trying to make him look like he raped the soul of this serious esports business etc etc. Or maybe you haven't noticed that , you've been preaching for like 10 pages about how irresponsible and stupid he is , while everyone was kindly wishing him well ? Chill down man...
On February 04 2011 00:28 rolfe wrote: Poor guy, couldn't have happened at a worse time really. still a true brit!
I'm just providing the counterbalance.
Look, context matters. The bottom line is that we don't know how the situation went down. There are a million ways in which DeMuslim could have acted responsibility and a million ways in which he could have acted irresponsibility. You don't know enough to make a judgement on DeMuslim's choices. EG will talk to their player and make the appropriate decision. In the mean time, stop trolling this thread.
All I hear is a lot of "If I were a pro gamer this is how I act and anything outside of that realm is deemed 'unprofessional'."
Seriously guys, if you're going to judge people based on the word "professional" without a definition then you deserve to have your whole post ignored. People are starting to take their own opinion on what is acceptable and calling that professional. Which makes sense, I guess, since it makes your argument look like it has more credence than "this is my opinion" since you're supposedly arguing from a fact (the definition/idea of professionalism). You just leave your audience to define the term themselves so your job is that much easier.
How about we stop worrying about what "professionalism" in SC2 is because quite frankly these talks seem to end up as "professionalism =what I would do in their shoes."
Frankly, I don't think the issue of being "professional" is that important. The big thing for EG is probably that one of their biggest names is going to drop out of big tournaments and possibly months of practice time. That can do alot to ones skill, trust me. Even if he is healed, pain can still linger on and broken elbows often is quite tricky cause almost all movements of the arm would trigger "elbow pain".
On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
What the fuck? Drinking in a bar is a risk? Going to restaurants/bars/pubs is integral part of european culture. Everyone goes to a Restaurant in the evening once in a while, including families with their children. If going out in the evening to have a drink and some food is a risk, everything is a "risk".
On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
it's a risk to leave the house or step out of the shower because you could fall. come on you cannot be serious.
No pro gamers should be allowed to visit Swedish tournaments. The risk of falling and breaking an arm was probably higher outside of Dreamhack this winter than it has ever been in a pub. Bloody ice man, it's a calculated risk to go outside.
On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
What the fuck? Drinking in a bar is a risk? Going to restaurants/bars/pubs is integral part of european culture. Everyone goes to a Restaurant in the evening once in a while, including families with their children. If going out in the evening to have a drink and some food is a risk, everything is a risk.
This "culture" phenomenon you speak of, it seems not everyone is aware of such an extraordinary thing.
On February 04 2011 04:02 rasnj wrote: This is sad news indeed. Hope he gets better soon and is able to return to top-form reasonable quickly. Demuslim was always one of those players I expected might own up just about any tournament.
On February 04 2011 03:34 MichaelJLowell wrote: Several years back, the Warcraft III player Moon broke his hand after he "got into an accident in the hotel lobby of the Ramada Hotel. The result of the accident was a broken arm to the Korean player, who was rushed to the hospital." Was that stupid? No. It happens. It was an accident.
No it doesn't happen. It was a calculated risk, and to be honest quite an unprofessional one. Moon should have been wearing protective arm gear (similar to that employed in several fighting sports) to protect his arms in the event of an accident. To be honest even walking by himself was sort of irresponsible as he knew there was a risk he would fall, or get knocked over, and it could result in injury. Ideally he should have done the professional thing and stayed in his room or been transported in a protected vechicle (wheelchair or something like it inside). Ever seen president Obama just walk down the street? No, because he understands the risk of walking by himself so he employs armored vechicles and a security detail. He is professional.
"Getting into a fight at the bar" was not an accident because DeMusliM made the conscious decision to go to that bar and put himself in a position of calculated risk. By the words of the people posting in this thread, he made a calculated risk.
He went to a bar and consumed alcohol, those were the risks he were taking. There is no evidence that DeMuslim entered into a fight, so that was an accident. Going to a bar usually is safe if you do not seek out trouble, so it is a reasonable risk to take just like shaking hands, riding a bike, walking down the street or being in a car are all risky, but in a reasonable way. If EG feels he need to be so protective of himself that he needs a curfew, then I doubt many gamers would be interested in playing for EG.
BTW you do realize Incontrol tackled qxc at an MLG event right? Why haven't EG fired him yet? Compared to DeMuslim's risky actions of going to a bar this seems much more dangerous. Maybe they could fire both of them (mostly due to a lack of player rights), but why would they be such a strict team? They may safe a months salary on Demuslim, but no other pro is going to want to sign a contract with them if they treat their players like that.
I'm not even going to bother responding to you.
On February 04 2011 04:03 Zocat wrote: I only read the OP. The OP clearly states they went drinking AFTER the incident. Do you have additional sources where Rotterdam claims that Demuslim was drinking at/prior the time (of the incident)?
If yes, I stand corrected and would really like to read those sources.
Yeah, they went drinking "after". We don't know that, either. Their story is "they got into a fight with drunks" and "DeMusliM broke his hand" and "they went out drinking after and only noticed the broken hand later". Right. Quite frankly, none of us know any facts other than "they went out drinking" and "they got into a fight with drunks". From my point of view, they did a stupid thing.
On February 04 2011 04:05 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
Look, context matters. The bottom line is that we don't know how the situation went down. There are a million ways in which DeMuslim could have acted responsibility and a million ways in which he could have acted irresponsibility. You don't know enough to make a judgement on DeMuslim's choices. EG will talk to their player and make the appropriate decision. In the mean time, stop trolling this thread.
Trolling does not equal disagreement. I've already made my side of the argument. You don't agree, whatever. I'm just going to end up repeating my arguments ad nauseum until every person on TeamLiquid has read this thread. Later.
On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
it's a risk to leave the house or step out of the shower because you could fall. come on you cannot be serious.
No pro gamers should be allowed to visit Swedish tournaments. The risk of falling and breaking an arm was probably higher outside of Dreamhack this winter than it has ever been in a pub. Bloody ice man, it's a calculated risk to go outside.
YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WALK ON ICE OR WE WILL TERMINATE YOUR CONTRACT WITH US, ITS A CALCULATED RISK AND VERY UNPROFFESIONAL TO WALK ON ICE. WE DO NOT PAY YOU TO WALK ON ICE.
Calculated risks.... Calculated risks everywhere man! Thanks God that beanie didn't hurt Jinro's head or pillow hurt HuK bottom. ProGamers are sooo irresponsible these days ><
enough of this ; get well Ben! Hope everything works out well for you!
Lowell, I assume you have employed as well... do you go into bars once in a while? I also assume that you need your hands to work. If you do both you act just as unprofessional as the person you condemn The reason that high-profile sports people are held up to incredibly high standards is because they make an insane amount of money, while Demuslim probably gets a rather low salary compared to a day job. So Why should he have to live any more cautious than a normal working person? Most person will be unable to work when they break a bone, not just pro-gamers but most clerks, office workers, manual workers (obviously lol) etc.
People are saying in this thread that going out to a bar and drinking alcohol means you are risking your health and putting yourself in danger. seriously what do you do with your lives? do you just live in a bubble hoping you don't get hurt? people go out with their friends and have a good time which often involves bars and beer or w/e. Who knows what happened really but from the limited experience of seeing demuslim we have in interviews and casting and things do you seriously think hes a violent guy? look the reason we don't mind too much and think this is kinda funny is he was going out, maybe to celebrate his new team and stuff and have a good time and as it doesn't sound too serious, as in police being involved its just an unintended drunken injury as almost everyone on this site (who actually leave their house) will have had dozens of times. hell it might even have been some kinda drunken playfight thing with friends for all we know as i and others have also undoubtedly done.
On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
it's a risk to leave the house or step out of the shower because you could fall. come on you cannot be serious.
I'm completely serious. If you can't see the difference between the unavoidable risk you take by leaving your house in the morning and the avoidable risk you assume by consuming alcohol, then you're reaching. I'm not saying that it's an unreasonable risk. I drink all the time, but I would never argue that's it's not inherently a risky behavior. It's just that I'm willing to assume the risk for what I perceive as the benefits of having a good time. But remember that when you're consuming any substance that dulls your wits or senses whether it's beer or cold medicine, you're almost always increasing the risk of something happening that could otherwise be avoided. This risk compounds when you're doing it in a setting where other people are assuming similar risks (bars, parties, etc.).
Personally I really don't care a whole lot about the professionalism issue. Even though I believe it was unprofessional behavior, it's his right to behave however he wants so long as he is willing to assume the consequences. Besides, if things don't turn out well he has much more to lose in this than I ever will so whatever. Of course I wish him well as we all should, but this really isn't going to affect my day that much. People are getting a bit too emotionally invested in this, I think.
On February 04 2011 04:02 rasnj wrote: This is sad news indeed. Hope he gets better soon and is able to return to top-form reasonable quickly. Demuslim was always one of those players I expected might own up just about any tournament.
On February 04 2011 03:34 MichaelJLowell wrote: Several years back, the Warcraft III player Moon broke his hand after he "got into an accident in the hotel lobby of the Ramada Hotel. The result of the accident was a broken arm to the Korean player, who was rushed to the hospital." Was that stupid? No. It happens. It was an accident.
No it doesn't happen. It was a calculated risk, and to be honest quite an unprofessional one. Moon should have been wearing protective arm gear (similar to that employed in several fighting sports) to protect his arms in the event of an accident. To be honest even walking by himself was sort of irresponsible as he knew there was a risk he would fall, or get knocked over, and it could result in injury. Ideally he should have done the professional thing and stayed in his room or been transported in a protected vechicle (wheelchair or something like it inside). Ever seen president Obama just walk down the street? No, because he understands the risk of walking by himself so he employs armored vechicles and a security detail. He is professional.
"Getting into a fight at the bar" was not an accident because DeMusliM made the conscious decision to go to that bar and put himself in a position of calculated risk. By the words of the people posting in this thread, he made a calculated risk.
He went to a bar and consumed alcohol, those were the risks he were taking. There is no evidence that DeMuslim entered into a fight, so that was an accident. Going to a bar usually is safe if you do not seek out trouble, so it is a reasonable risk to take just like shaking hands, riding a bike, walking down the street or being in a car are all risky, but in a reasonable way. If EG feels he need to be so protective of himself that he needs a curfew, then I doubt many gamers would be interested in playing for EG.
BTW you do realize Incontrol tackled qxc at an MLG event right? Why haven't EG fired him yet? Compared to DeMuslim's risky actions of going to a bar this seems much more dangerous. Maybe they could fire both of them (mostly due to a lack of player rights), but why would they be such a strict team? They may safe a months salary on Demuslim, but no other pro is going to want to sign a contract with them if they treat their players like that.
On February 04 2011 04:03 Zocat wrote: I only read the OP. The OP clearly states they went drinking AFTER the incident. Do you have additional sources where Rotterdam claims that Demuslim was drinking at/prior the time (of the incident)?
If yes, I stand corrected and would really like to read those sources.
Yeah, they went drinking "after". We don't know that, either. Their story is "they got into a fight with drunks" and "DeMusliM broke his hand" and "they went out drinking after and only noticed the broken hand later". Right. Quite frankly, none of us know any facts other than "they went out drinking" and "they got into a fight with drunks". From my point of view, they did a stupid thing.
Look, context matters. The bottom line is that we don't know how the situation went down. There are a million ways in which DeMuslim could have acted responsibility and a million ways in which he could have acted irresponsibility. You don't know enough to make a judgement on DeMuslim's choices. EG will talk to their player and make the appropriate decision. In the mean time, stop trolling this thread.
Trolling does not equal disagreement. I've already made my side of the argument. You don't agree, whatever. I'm just going to end up repeating my arguments ad nauseum until every person on TeamLiquid has read this thread. Later.
If you're gonna assume DeMuslim is just a drunkard getting into fights, we also have the right to assume you're just a troll. Don't even bother coming back.
On February 04 2011 04:21 Sonictonic wrote: It would be fun to see how quickly Demuslim would get picked up by another team if EG booted him over this, would be their loss really.
Assuming that this doesn't affect his ability to play well in the long run, which is something we don't yet know. Injuries are funny that way.
Wtf is this thread? Why do people here believe they have a right to judge this guy? You guys would not like your private issues being discussed on the internet either.
This is all so ridiculous here with comparisons with NBA stars and what not. This guy earns probably less than the average person in Germany. Just because his profession is playing a game he is now somehow public property and people feel the need to discuss his stuff or even demand he displays some special "professional" behaviour? Its just absurd.
Speaking as someone who works in these types of environments regularly, and deals with both offenders and victims in bar fights, I see DeMusliM as doing nothing wrong. From the little testimony we have from Rotterdam, he got punched and he fell onto his elbow. If someone is looking for a fight they will always get their wish.
Also lay off him, you can't expect him to stay locked in his bedroom all day. Also, hahahaha at the amount of people stating he took a risk. Going out for a drink with friends should not be and is not a risk. If that is a risk then so it's turning his PC on in the morning because he could get electrocuted.
On February 04 2011 04:30 Redox wrote: Wtf is this thread? Why do people here believe they have a right to judge this guy? You guys would not like your private issues being discussed on the internet either.
This is all so ridiculous here with comparisons with NBA stars and what not. This guy earns probably less than the average person in Germany. Just because his profession is playing a game he is now somehow public property and people feel the need to discuss his stuff or even demand he displays some special "professional" behaviour? Its just absurd.
Welcome to the world of celebrity. His income doesn't matter. The fact that he's well-known means that people are going to have opinions and express them. If he doesn't want people judging him or talking about him, he always has the option to fade into obscurity. I'd wager that he really doesn't care, though. People have every right to judge him and he has every right to ignore their judgments.
On February 04 2011 04:31 Castiel wrote:. Also, hahahaha at the amount of people stating he took a risk. Going out for a drink with friends should not be and is not a risk. If that is a risk then so it's turning his PC on in the morning because he could get electrocuted. / InsurrectioN
Lots of things SHOULDN'T be risky in an ideal situation and yet plenty of things are simply because the world isn't ideal. Driving shouldn't be a risk so long as everyone obeys the rules and drives carefully, but it is because not everyone does. You calculate risks and make decisions in life everyday based on those calculations. I drive not because it's not risky, but because the overall benefits outweigh the probability that I might get broad-sided by an 18-wheeler. I don't think it's right to shrug off risk just because it seems reasonable to us because something that may be a reasonable risk for you may not be for someone else and if we misrepresent it, someone might get hurt because of it.
Texting while stopped at a red light usually won't lead to anything bad happening, but it's not something I would write off as not being risky simply because it takes your attention away from the road and you may not be able to react as quickly in the event that someone else screws up. Drinking is essentially the same thing... Of course it's certainly less risky than playing with explosives, but that's really not the point I'm trying to get at. :/
I'm sure Demusilm doesn't care about some random guy on TL judging his personal life and character based off of maybe a paragraph or two of information. Best of luck man get well soon!
Getting into a fight is almost always avoidable. The way some of the people in this thread talk it is like you go out and get into fights all the time. The going out and drinking is no big deal, the getting into a fight is stupid as hell.
On February 04 2011 04:49 Duravi wrote: Getting into a fight is almost always avoidable. The way some of the people in this thread talk it is like you go out and get into fights all the time. The going out and drinking is no big deal, the getting into a fight is stupid as hell.
More often than not whoever decided to start the fight isn't going to be happy until he had one. You try being diplomatic with an angry man with too many beers in his belly, it's actually impossible.
On February 04 2011 04:49 Duravi wrote: Getting into a fight is almost always avoidable. The way some of the people in this thread talk it is like you go out and get into fights all the time. The going out and drinking is no big deal, the getting into a fight is stupid as hell.
not almost always avoidable at all, if someone takes a dislike to you and wants to punch you he will, simple as that... do you people even leave the house and go the pubs or bars, i guess it has a lot to do with where you drink and the culture of the people you drink with..... the sad truth is you cant go out to a pub in area I live in without seeing people arrested for fighting every night of the week.
pathetic, yes it is, avoidable nope its a sad truth.
On February 04 2011 04:49 Duravi wrote: Getting into a fight is almost always avoidable. The way some of the people in this thread talk it is like you go out and get into fights all the time. The going out and drinking is no big deal, the getting into a fight is stupid as hell.
not almost always avoidable at all, if someone takes a dislike to you and wants to punch you he will, simple as that
Hence, the reason he said "almost". Of course there's the off chance that some guy will randomly lash out at you and punch you in the face without warning, but the vast majority of the time, there's usually a progression of hostilities leading up to a fight with multiple opportunities to remove yourself from the situation.
On February 04 2011 04:49 Duravi wrote: Getting into a fight is almost always avoidable. The way some of the people in this thread talk it is like you go out and get into fights all the time. The going out and drinking is no big deal, the getting into a fight is stupid as hell.
not almost always avoidable at all, if someone takes a dislike to you and wants to punch you he will, simple as that
You ever walked into a bar wearing a dino suit? Pretty sure it's impossible for anyone to dislike you then. So yes, it IS always avoidable. Because if you were man enough and stylish enough to wear a dino suit in a bar, nobody would try to take you down. They would buy you a drink.
First of all. Get better fast Ben, unfortunately stuff like that happens. Get well soon and come back better then before
To give you the original source its from rotterdaM s twitter account... http://twitter.com/RotterdaM08 somebody in the german forum said there is no valid source, so i looked at the twitter page to confirm it. (Before any1 starts flaming, i did not thought it is a hoax, but I was a bit curious were they got the info originally from ;-)
And a small update from twitter:
# Ben/Demuslim's arm already looked a lot better today , Assembly is a tough story but count on him to shine at IEM Global Finals! about 8 hours ago via web from Innenstadt, Cologne
# Off to visit benni, hope the hospital still lets me enter at this time O_O, otherwise its time for some Metal Gear Solid action harhar. about 22 hours ago via web from Innenstadt, Cologne
More often than not whoever decided to start the fight isn't going to be happy until he had one. You try being diplomatic with an angry man with too many beers in his belly, it's actually impossible.
Then you just walk away from the situation. As someone who does go out to the bars with friends alot and has been doing so for about a decade every situation that could have turned into a fight I avoided and that is why I have thankfully never been in one. Nothing positive comes from fighting strangers. Whether you are an esports pro, an NBA player or just Joe the frat brother it is not going to help your life in anyway getting into a drunken bar fight.
On February 04 2011 04:49 Duravi wrote: Getting into a fight is almost always avoidable. The way some of the people in this thread talk it is like you go out and get into fights all the time. The going out and drinking is no big deal, the getting into a fight is stupid as hell.
not almost always avoidable at all, if someone takes a dislike to you and wants to punch you he will, simple as that
You ever walked into a bar wearing a dino suit? Pretty sure it's impossible for anyone to dislike you then. So yes, it IS always avoidable. Because if you were man enough and stylish enough to wear a dino suit in a bar, nobody would try to take you down. They would buy you a drink.
absolutely no idea what point your trying to make there
More often than not whoever decided to start the fight isn't going to be happy until he had one. You try being diplomatic with an angry man with too many beers in his belly, it's actually impossible.
Then you just walk away from the situation. As someone who does go out to the bars with friends alot and has been doing so for about a decade every situation that could have turned into a fight I avoided and that is why I have thankfully never been in one. Nothing positives comes from fighting strangers. Whether you are an esports pro, an NBA player or just Joe the frat brother it is not going to help your life in anyway getting into a drunken bar fight.
Ideally. The one and only time I ever walked away I was thanked with a thrown bottle to the back of my head. Pros and cons to everything, rather take my chances without having my back turned personally.
On February 04 2011 04:58 nemahsys wrote: I dont wanna know how smashed you have to be to "badly break your hand AND elbow" and not notice it.
How about "slightly wankered" or "kinda shitfaced"? Brits will be Brits
On February 04 2011 04:49 Duravi wrote: Getting into a fight is almost always avoidable. The way some of the people in this thread talk it is like you go out and get into fights all the time. The going out and drinking is no big deal, the getting into a fight is stupid as hell.
not almost always avoidable at all, if someone takes a dislike to you and wants to punch you he will, simple as that
You ever walked into a bar wearing a dino suit? Pretty sure it's impossible for anyone to dislike you then. So yes, it IS always avoidable. Because if you were man enough and stylish enough to wear a dino suit in a bar, nobody would try to take you down. They would buy you a drink.
what about purple dinosaurs outfits? i don't think i'd take kindly to barney walking in the pub
More often than not whoever decided to start the fight isn't going to be happy until he had one. You try being diplomatic with an angry man with too many beers in his belly, it's actually impossible.
Then you just walk away from the situation. As someone who does go out to the bars with friends alot and has been doing so for about a decade every situation that could have turned into a fight I avoided and that is why I have thankfully never been in one. Nothing positives comes from fighting strangers. Whether you are an esports pro, an NBA player or just Joe the frat brother it is not going to help your life in anyway getting into a drunken bar fight.
then the person who wanted to hit you obviously didn't 'really' want to and where just full of talk or they would have, I am not saying its not avoidable am simply stating if someone wants to hit you they will do so.
On February 04 2011 03:59 Panicc wrote:It IS NOT A FUCKING RISK to drink in a bar.
Is this supposed to be a joke? It's a calculated risk and perhaps even a reasonable one, but it's a risk nonetheless.
it's a risk to leave the house or step out of the shower because you could fall. come on you cannot be serious.
I'm completely serious. If you can't see the difference between the unavoidable risk you take by leaving your house in the morning and the avoidable risk you assume by consuming alcohol, then you're reaching. I'm not saying that it's an unreasonable risk. I drink all the time, but I would never argue that's it's not inherently a risky behavior. It's just that I'm willing to assume the risk for what I perceive as the benefits of having a good time. But remember that when you're consuming any substance that dulls your wits or senses whether it's beer or cold medicine, you're almost always increasing the risk of something happening that could otherwise be avoided. This risk compounds when you're doing it in a setting where other people are assuming similar risks (bars, parties, etc.).
Personally I really don't care a whole lot about the professionalism issue. Even though I believe it was unprofessional behavior, it's his right to behave however he wants so long as he is willing to assume the consequences. Besides, if things don't turn out well he has much more to lose in this than I ever will so whatever. Of course I wish him well as we all should, but this really isn't going to affect my day that much. People are getting a bit too emotionally invested in this, I think.
If you actually spend time to consider the risk when you are having a drink or going to a bar you really need to question how you live your live. Really that is kinda pathetic...
Anyway get well Demuslim. Shit happens. I don't understand how there are such strong opinions on what actually happened seeing as no one actually knows yet outside of a few very vague details.
Hey guys! A thing happen! We weren't there and we don't know all the facts but lets discuss it as though we do. While we're at it we could expand the discussion to include hypothetical situations that may or may not bare any resemblance to the thing that happened - we can even start drawing comparisons between the thing and other, fundamentally different, things. That would be awesome!
On February 04 2011 05:12 hagon wrote: Hey guys! A thing happen! We weren't there and we don't know all the facts but lets discuss it as though we do. While we're at it we could expand the discussion to include hypothetical situations that may or may not bare any resemblance to the thing that happened - we can even start drawing comparisons between the thing and other, fundamentally different, things. That would be awesome!
On February 04 2011 05:11 timbo wrote: If you actually spend time to consider the risk when you are having a drink or going to a bar you really need to question how you live your live. Really that is kinda pathetic...
I would feel more sorry for you if you spent no time assessing various risk factors in your life because to me, that's just stupid. I'm not talking about sitting there contemplating the issue for hours. I'm talking about taking a split second out of your day to assess whether it's the right decision to make or not.
Am I driving tonight? No? Maybe I'll have a drink. Yes? Maybe I shouldn't. Do I have anything important to do afterward? No? maybe I'll have a drink. Yes? Maybe I shouldn't. Does drinking increase the chances that I'll injure myself? Probably. Is my physical well being important to my career? Yes? Maybe I shouldn't drink, or if I do, maybe I should limit my drinking. Are altercations more likely to happen in a bar where numerous people are drinking than elsewhere? Probably... Maybe I should avoid certain bars or make it a point to remove myself ASAP when it seems that an altercation is about to occur.
This really isn't rocket science. It's common sense risk assessment. Or at least, I thought it was before I read some of the responses in this thread. And actually I don't go to most bars near me because from my experience there's a lot more risk of something bad or troublesome happening there than I'm comfortable with (the bar nearest to me regularly has to replace their windows on a weekly basis and it seems there's always blood outside every morning). To me, that's not really me living a pathetic life. It's me being sensible enough to know that it's probably more trouble than its worth to be there...
Besides, drinks are so overpriced not to mention the tips you need to pay, but that's another thing altogether.
Maybe you may not actually be conscious of the risk assessment you do, but I find it hard to seriously believe that you don't consider such things at all in your decision making process.
On February 04 2011 05:12 hagon wrote: Hey guys! A thing happen! We weren't there and we don't know all the facts but lets discuss it as though we do. While we're at it we could expand the discussion to include hypothetical situations that may or may not bare any resemblance to the thing that happened - we can even start drawing comparisons between the thing and other, fundamentally different, things. That would be awesome!
On February 04 2011 05:11 timbo wrote: If you actually spend time to consider the risk when you are having a drink or going to a bar you really need to question how you live your live. Really that is kinda pathetic...
I would feel more sorry for you if you spent no time assessing various risk factors in your life because to me, that's just stupid. I'm not talking about sitting there contemplating the issue for hours. I'm talking about taking a split second out of your day to assess whether it's the right decision to make or not.
Am I driving tonight? No? Maybe I'll have a drink. Yes? Maybe I shouldn't. Do I have anything important to do afterward? No? maybe I'll have a drink. Yes? Maybe I shouldn't. Does drinking increase the chances that I'll injure myself? Probably. Is my physical well being important to my career? Yes? Maybe I shouldn't drink, or if I do, maybe I should limit my drinking. Are altercations more likely to happen in a bar where numerous people are drinking than elsewhere? Probably... Maybe I should avoid certain bars or make it a point to remove myself ASAP when it seems that an altercation is about to occur.
This really isn't rocket science. It's common sense risk assessment. Or at least, I thought it was before I read some of the responses in this thread. And actually I don't go to most bars near me because from my experience there's a lot more risk of something bad or troublesome happening there than I'm comfortable with (the bar nearest to me regularly has to replace their windows on a weekly basis and it seems there's always blood outside every morning). To me, that's not really me living a pathetic life. It's me being sensible enough to know that it's probably more trouble than its worth to be there...
Besides, drinks are so overpriced not to mention the tips you need to pay, but that's another thing altogether.
Maybe you may not actually be conscious of the risk assessment you do, but I find it hard to seriously believe that you don't consider such things at all in your decision making process.
Not everyone is gonna go through all this. I live in Canada, so there's a inherent risk to going ANYWHERE in the winter. So you would suggest the rational choice is to stay indoors and have all food delivered?
On February 04 2011 04:03 Zocat wrote: I only read the OP. The OP clearly states they went drinking AFTER the incident. Do you have additional sources where Rotterdam claims that Demuslim was drinking at/prior the time (of the incident)?
If yes, I stand corrected and would really like to read those sources.
Yeah, they went drinking "after". We don't know that, either. Their story is "they got into a fight with drunks" and "DeMusliM broke his hand" and "they went out drinking after and only noticed the broken hand later". Right. Quite frankly, none of us know any facts other than "they went out drinking" and "they got into a fight with drunks". From my point of view, they did a stupid thing.
Wait a minute. Suddenly "none of us know any facts". Why then, did you write earlier stuff like "Getting into a fight at the bar fight" or "LOL I WAS DRUKN LAST NITE N FUUU I BROKE MY HAND"? Where are your "Rotterdam said so" sources suddenly? Also, why do you put "after" in quotes? It's not what the guy said. He didnt say "after" but _after_.
Your obviously are now grasping for straws, because you've got shit to back up your claims.
Btw, you did it again: "they got into a fight with drunks". Source? How do you know they got in a fight with drunks and not some other sober people?
I do understand your point of view, that people are responsible for their actions. But please stop making shit up which you cannot prove. It makes you look like a fool or a troll. Your call.
On February 04 2011 05:12 hagon wrote: Hey guys! A thing happen! We weren't there and we don't know all the facts but lets discuss it as though we do. While we're at it we could expand the discussion to include hypothetical situations that may or may not bare any resemblance to the thing that happened - we can even start drawing comparisons between the thing and other, fundamentally different, things. That would be awesome!
my mind is blown, we should do this on TL more!!!
hey, at least this hasn't turned into a balance argument!
Not everyone is gonna go through all this. I live in Canada, so there's a inherent risk to going ANYWHERE in the winter. So you would suggest the rational choice is to stay indoors and have all food delivered?
I'm not debating how reasonable a risk is. I'm simply emphasizing the importance of identifying risk factors as what they are in order to make better decisions in life. How can you make any decision as to how reasonable a risk is if you don't recognize it as a risk at all? It's this type of thinking that leads to people making stupid decisions like texting while driving and getting into a fight over something stupid. And yes, sometimes depending on the weather conditions, the rational choice may very well be to stay indoors on a given day or week, but if you ignore the risk just because it seems like something you inevitably have to deal with (when it may not necessarily be), then you may find yourself in trouble. The fact that you recognize that there is a certain amount of risk in going out in the Canadian winter and are making an argument about the rationality of a certain course of action given the level of risk simply proves my point.
lol Brits abroad is always a dangerous situation! Unlucky Demuslim. Get well soon.
Only read a few posts in this thread but some seem to think he may be to blame, trouble can be avoided etc etc.
Well it isn't always avoidable, a few years ago I had to go to hospital after getting a nasty cut on the head when I was pushed over from behind after refusing to give some local chav and his mates cigarette on the street after a St Patricks day drinking session.
Just because someone is drunk or high it doesn't automatically make it their fault if they get into bother! (unless they are driving of course)
On February 04 2011 04:58 nemahsys wrote: I dont wanna know how smashed you have to be to "badly break your hand AND elbow" and not notice it.
How about "slightly wankered" or "kinda shitfaced"? Brits will be Brits
For a Sweed, you have some damn good knowledge of British wording.
Spent two years living in the paradise (shit hole/paradise) called Cumbria. Probably part of the reason I refuse to visit any pub these days, spoiled by quality ale which is unobtainable here.
He's lucky he's in eSports. Bar brawl and breaking your arm because you were too loaded to stand up could get you some pretty harsh punishment in other sports. Teams/leagues usually have policies against this kind of stuff to protect their investments. Has EG said anything about this yet?
Surgery sounds serious, too. I hope he recovers well and has a quick return, definitely a great gamer.
On February 04 2011 05:12 hagon wrote: Hey guys! A thing happen! We weren't there and we don't know all the facts but lets discuss it as though we do. While we're at it we could expand the discussion to include hypothetical situations that may or may not bare any resemblance to the thing that happened - we can even start drawing comparisons between the thing and other, fundamentally different, things. That would be awesome!
my mind is blown, we should do this on TL more!!!
hey, at least this hasn't turned into a balance argument!
And it begins.
get well demuslim! you were susposed to go to korea pretty soon eh?
Just to sum things up 1 more time, He did not get beat up, ( He has absolutely 0 marks in his face or whatsoever... some people seem to assume this ), the guy he had an arguement with is 100% sure not even aware of what happened to his elbow/hand, ben just got very unlucky by falling and landing very unfortunate, he was _DEFINATELY_ not to drunk to stand up, honestly how can people even write that stuff without being there? If he was I would just admit it but its absolute rubbish -_-, he was far from that, sure we had a few drinks but not even close to the level where you can't get up from the street, its honestly quite bad to just throw stuff like that out there without knowing the facts.
All in all this is just a fucked up situation cause this entire affair wouldnt have been a story at all if he wouldnt have got so unlucky to land on his elbow, now It looks like some kind of massacre took place while it was absolutely nothing like that.
In the end of the day its only sad for 1 person and thats demuslim himself, he was in absolute monstershape, taking rank 1 in Europe and over the last few days having like 85%+ win ration vs the best players in ladder, which was kinda insane and he seeemed very ready for assembly, unfortunately thats gonna be a tough story but as I said, EPS and IEM should be all fine.
He will get out of the hospital on monday most likely, but was already able to move his arm and hand quite a bit this morning, with a bit of luck hes playing within 12/13 days, he had surgery a few hours after the incident took place and has been recovring ever since, I'll pay him another visit tomorrow morning before I go to work to send him all the best wishes many people did and hopefully bring some positiv news to this forum as well
On February 04 2011 06:40 RotterdaM wrote: Hey guys,
Just to sum things up 1 more time, He did not get beat up, ( He has absolutely 0 marks in his face or whatsoever... some people seem to assume this ), the guy he had an arguement with is 100% sure not even aware of what happened to his elbow/hand, ben just got very unlucky by falling and landing very unfortunate, he was _DEFINATELY_ not to drunk to stand up, honestly how can people even write that stuff without being there? If he was I would just admit it but its absolute rubbish -_-, he was far from that, sure we had a few drinks but not even close to the level where you can't get up from the street, its honestly quite bad to just throw stuff like that out there without knowing the facts.
All in all this is just a fucked up situation cause this entire affair wouldnt have been a story at all if he wouldnt have got so unlucky to land on his elbow, now It looks like some kind of massacre took place while it was absolutely nothing like that.
In the end of the day its only sad for 1 person and thats demuslim himself, he was in absolute monstershape, taking rank 1 in Europe and over the last few days having like 85%+ win ration vs the best players in ladder, which was kinda insane and he seeemed very ready for assembly, unfortunately thats gonna be a tough story but as I said, EPS and IEM should be all fine.
He will get out of the hospital on monday most likely, but was already able to move his arm and hand quite a bit this morning, with a bit of luck hes playing within 12/13 days, he had surgery a few hours after the incident took place and has been recovring ever since, I'll pay him another visit tomorrow morning before I go to work to send him all the best wishes many people did and hopefully bring some positiv news to this forum as well
Thanks for the update. I agree, people should just leave their well wishes to Demuslim and jump to these crazy conclusions.
On February 04 2011 06:40 RotterdaM wrote: Hey guys,
Just to sum things up 1 more time, He did not get beat up, ( He has absolutely 0 marks in his face or whatsoever... some people seem to assume this ), the guy he had an arguement with is 100% sure not even aware of what happened to his elbow/hand, ben just got very unlucky by falling and landing very unfortunate, he was _DEFINATELY_ not to drunk to stand up, honestly how can people even write that stuff without being there? If he was I would just admit it but its absolute rubbish -_-, he was far from that, sure we had a few drinks but not even close to the level where you can't get up from the street, its honestly quite bad to just throw stuff like that out there without knowing the facts.
All in all this is just a fucked up situation cause this entire affair wouldnt have been a story at all if he wouldnt have got so unlucky to land on his elbow, now It looks like some kind of massacre took place while it was absolutely nothing like that.
In the end of the day its only sad for 1 person and thats demuslim himself, he was in absolute monstershape, taking rank 1 in Europe and over the last few days having like 85%+ win ration vs the best players in ladder, which was kinda insane and he seeemed very ready for assembly, unfortunately thats gonna be a tough story but as I said, EPS and IEM should be all fine.
He will get out of the hospital on monday most likely, but was already able to move his arm and hand quite a bit this morning, with a bit of luck hes playing within 12/13 days, he had surgery a few hours after the incident took place and has been recovring ever since, I'll pay him another visit tomorrow morning before I go to work to send him all the best wishes many people did and hopefully bring some positiv news to this forum as well
thanks for the update and the clarification. would be nice if it could be put into the op (in case that didn't already happen).
quite sad and pathetic how many people in this thread decided to talk mindless BS.
As myself and Rotti cleared up in the show. We got into a scuffle after 3 guys called me and DemusliM English c***s. Ben fell over at some point during it all, and broke his Elbow, and his HAND. He had a wire put in his elbow to rejoin the piece of his elbow that had "broken off"
On February 04 2011 00:27 Irrelevant wrote: Why couldn't he just break a leg or something, gamers need their hands. Sucks to see him miss out on some upcoming tournies.
lol in the future pro-gamers are going to insure their hands and fingers.!
On February 04 2011 00:46 niteReloaded wrote: I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's because I was being a total idiot, so my guess is he deserved it.
I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's becauce the other guy was being a total idiot, so my guess is he didnt deserve it.
my point is that many times you can be a bigger man and resolve things without fighting.
That's why I only had 1 fight, and that 1 fight could've been avoided if the other guy realized I was an idiot and simply beaten me with words or wit or something.
Fistfighting is really really unneccessary in most cases imo.
I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
On February 04 2011 00:46 niteReloaded wrote: I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's because I was being a total idiot, so my guess is he deserved it.
I had some fights in my life, but only once I had it when I went out, and that's becauce the other guy was being a total idiot, so my guess is he didnt deserve it.
my point is that many times you can be a bigger man and resolve things without fighting.
That's why I only had 1 fight, and that 1 fight could've been avoided if the other guy realized I was an idiot and simply beaten me with words or wit or something.
Fistfighting is really really unneccessary in most cases imo.
I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
Lol .. "a little skirmish while out drinking with some friends" has turned into a philosophical debate about fighting vs not fighting.. being the bigger man etc.. Online forums confuse me a lot ..
I couldn't help but laugh a little bit when i read this.. i just hope there isn't any permanent damage to his play because he is a damn awesome Terran! Hope to see him at IEM, sad about Assembly though
On February 04 2011 07:31 teh_longinator wrote: I'M sorry. You sound kinda like youve only been in one fight because you're a pussy. I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
A guy physically hurting kids? Sounds to me like something illegal and something that the police might be able to intervene in. Also, was your younger brother unable to escape the situation along with you? The way you described it, sounds to me like it was more about teaching the guy a lesson rather than defending your brother from some sort of unavoidable harm. Did it make you feel like more of a man to fight rather than handle things the way they're "supposed" to be handled? Also what kind of example does that set for your younger brother showing that physical violence is an acceptable way to resolve a conflict?
Granted, the legal system and law enforcement are not always ideal, but generally I think it's best for all parties to avoid physical conflict whenever possible. Barring some sort of immediate and dire situation, I find it hard to believe that your fight to "defend" your younger brother was completely unavoidable, but then again you know the story better than I do so yeah... Still fighting isn't really something to be proud of and accusing someone of being a "pussy" for being against it is pretty unjustified.
On February 04 2011 07:31 teh_longinator wrote: I'M sorry. You sound kinda like youve only been in one fight because you're a pussy. I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
A guy physically hurting kids? Sounds to me like something illegal and something that the police might be able to intervene in. Also, was your younger brother unable to escape the situation along with you? The way you described it, sounds to me like it was more about teaching the guy a lesson rather than defending your brother from some sort of unavoidable harm. Did it make you feel like more of a man to fight rather than handle things the way they're "supposed" to be handled? Also what kind of example does that set for your younger brother showing that physical violence is an acceptable way to resolve a conflict?
Granted, the legal system and law enforcement are not always ideal, but generally I think it's best for all parties to avoid physical conflict whenever possible. Barring some sort of immediate and dire situation, I find it hard to believe that your fight to "defend" your younger brother was completely unavoidable, but then again you know the story better than I do so yeah... Still fighting isn't really something to be proud of and accusing someone of being a "pussy" for being against it is pretty unjustified.
Wow, little kids? How the he'll old did you think I was. I'm a year and a half older numbnuts.
And the people picking the fights were usually older than me. And frankly, yeah, we lost a bunch of fights, but when we won, I kinda hoped it was to teach them a lesson. They target the small kids in the school to look big, and they got called on it. We never started the fight, but I'll be damned if we weren't gonna try to be the ones who ended it.
I guess he was in shock and thats the reason why he didnt notice it first. I strongly doubt that the confrontation was his fault. The newspaper is quite funny but again there is too much "crap" talk in this thread. The trashtalk at the german readmore forums are the most disgusting thing on earth though.
On February 04 2011 07:31 teh_longinator wrote: I'M sorry. You sound kinda like youve only been in one fight because you're a pussy. I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
A guy physically hurting kids? Sounds to me like something illegal and something that the police might be able to intervene in. Also, was your younger brother unable to escape the situation along with you? The way you described it, sounds to me like it was more about teaching the guy a lesson rather than defending your brother from some sort of unavoidable harm. Did it make you feel like more of a man to fight rather than handle things the way they're "supposed" to be handled? Also what kind of example does that set for your younger brother showing that physical violence is an acceptable way to resolve a conflict?
Granted, the legal system and law enforcement are not always ideal, but generally I think it's best for all parties to avoid physical conflict whenever possible. Barring some sort of immediate and dire situation, I find it hard to believe that your fight to "defend" your younger brother was completely unavoidable, but then again you know the story better than I do so yeah... Still fighting isn't really something to be proud of and accusing someone of being a "pussy" for being against it is pretty unjustified.
Wow, little kids? How the he'll old did you think I was. I'm a year and a half older numbnuts.
And the people picking the fights were usually older than me. And frankly, yeah, we lost a bunch of fights, but when we won, I kinda hoped it was to teach them a lesson. They target the small kids in the school to look big, and they got called on it. We never started the fight, but I'll be damned if we weren't gonna try to be the ones who ended it.
Stop being a damned hippie.
Get over yourselves.. both of you - start another thread about fighting and defending your siblings.. this is a thread about Demuslim hurting himself.. noone cares about your little debate about fighting or how tough either of you are..
Yikes. A broken hand and joint aren't necessarily short term problems that will simply go away and not have long-term symptoms for someone who uses them to the extent of a pro-gamer. Hoping he can make a quick and full recovery.
On February 04 2011 07:49 Manifesto7 wrote: lol at the people who are crying "unprofessional". Professionals are the people that go out and drink the most.
For all of the asia-o-philes we have around here, I'm surprised no one has heard of salarymen.
Yes, you can extrapolate that situation to its clearly ridiculous and absurd extremes if you'd like.
Yeah right, obviously everyone else is extrapolating; you, sir, are the single individual who is spot on.
EG pays him a fair sum of money to not have a life.
Yes, I am certain a smiliar phrase can be found in any pro-gamer contract. Actually, something along those lines should be in every work-contract. I mean we all get a salary if we're employed. So if you're not unemployed, your life should only exist between your workplace and your home. Or better yet, we should all have a bed in our offices so we don't run into the risk of hurting us on our way home.
Sorry, but you are clearly not in touch with the actual life out there. Yeah, it's a little set-back, but I'm quite certain EG will be more interested in the development over the next 2 years, rather than the next few weeks.
I see no mention of him being drunk when this happend. They ran into drunk guys and went drinking after that, and that could mean just 2-3 beers. If it was more, who cares.
I can hardly imagine Demuslim walking the streets totally wasted, bumping into people, etc.
Actually, I would be surprised if Scoots said much more than "Wow, that's bad, etc, get better soon." Just like 99% of the people in this thread.
How about you at least try to emulate normal human behavior?
I'm starting to wonder why I am actually trying to communicate with you, you're just a troll I guess. Please stop blowing the issue way out of proportion.
On February 04 2011 06:40 RotterdaM wrote: Hey guys,
Just to sum things up 1 more time, He did not get beat up, ( He has absolutely 0 marks in his face or whatsoever... some people seem to assume this ), the guy he had an arguement with is 100% sure not even aware of what happened to his elbow/hand, ben just got very unlucky by falling and landing very unfortunate, he was _DEFINATELY_ not to drunk to stand up, honestly how can people even write that stuff without being there? If he was I would just admit it but its absolute rubbish -_-, he was far from that, sure we had a few drinks but not even close to the level where you can't get up from the street, its honestly quite bad to just throw stuff like that out there without knowing the facts.
All in all this is just a fucked up situation cause this entire affair wouldnt have been a story at all if he wouldnt have got so unlucky to land on his elbow, now It looks like some kind of massacre took place while it was absolutely nothing like that.
In the end of the day its only sad for 1 person and thats demuslim himself, he was in absolute monstershape, taking rank 1 in Europe and over the last few days having like 85%+ win ration vs the best players in ladder, which was kinda insane and he seeemed very ready for assembly, unfortunately thats gonna be a tough story but as I said, EPS and IEM should be all fine.
He will get out of the hospital on monday most likely, but was already able to move his arm and hand quite a bit this morning, with a bit of luck hes playing within 12/13 days, he had surgery a few hours after the incident took place and has been recovring ever since, I'll pay him another visit tomorrow morning before I go to work to send him all the best wishes many people did and hopefully bring some positiv news to this forum as well
Ack, well that's a decidedly pedestrian story. I suggest we start some rumors instead! Here's my rumor, feel free to start your own: Demuslim, in a drunken stupor, attempted to copy iloveoov's famous ground punch + Show Spoiler +
in an effort to channel his starcraft prowess. Unfortunately, he punched asphalt with all his strength and ended up shattering his forearm.
Seriously though, rough luck by him and i hope he's better by EPS and IEM.
On February 04 2011 07:49 Manifesto7 wrote: lol at the people who are crying "unprofessional". Professionals are the people that go out and drink the most.
For all of the asia-o-philes we have around here, I'm surprised no one has heard of salarymen.
There's a difference between being a "professional" and "professional" behavior. People crying "unprofessional" for the most part are referring to the latter.
That is so sad. I'm really sorry for you ben. He just played so well in the current tournaments and i'm sure he would have shown some really good results in this month
On February 04 2011 07:31 teh_longinator wrote: I'M sorry. You sound kinda like youve only been in one fight because you're a pussy. I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
A guy physically hurting kids? Sounds to me like something illegal and something that the police might be able to intervene in. Also, was your younger brother unable to escape the situation along with you? The way you described it, sounds to me like it was more about teaching the guy a lesson rather than defending your brother from some sort of unavoidable harm. Did it make you feel like more of a man to fight rather than handle things the way they're "supposed" to be handled? Also what kind of example does that set for your younger brother showing that physical violence is an acceptable way to resolve a conflict?
Granted, the legal system and law enforcement are not always ideal, but generally I think it's best for all parties to avoid physical conflict whenever possible. Barring some sort of immediate and dire situation, I find it hard to believe that your fight to "defend" your younger brother was completely unavoidable, but then again you know the story better than I do so yeah... Still fighting isn't really something to be proud of and accusing someone of being a "pussy" for being against it is pretty unjustified.
You should visit Europe sometime, or at least burst out off your bubble in order to realize that (completely unrelated to this topic - I feel I still don't have enough info on what happened to make my judgement that in itself isn't really gonna change anything or the fact that I'm a fan of demuslim, all I can do is wish him well) running around in circles, away from people who wish to harm persistently isn't a viable answer to conflict resolution (not saying that violence is, it is however the only way to 'survive' on a daily basis in a pretty bad environment.) I get where you're coming from, however I was born in one of those such sceneries and I can assure you that I am not a violent person. However, if I was to trust the authorities to protect myself and my own - and I hate to sound dramatic as that just isn't me - I don't know where I would be today. I can only feel happy that you were born in a healthy enough environment that you have developed such strong beliefs that make you feel like people shouldn't stand up for themselves and the ones they like, as it is sometimes just about the only option.
The way you'd hear some of the people in this thread tell it, DeMuslim was drunk and violent at a Starcraft event while wearing an EG shirt during working hours, and ambushed an unsuspecting fan. This talk of unprofessional behaviour is hilarious, it's perhaps ironic that what Demuslim gets up to in his own time is none of your business.
On February 04 2011 00:16 moNsi wrote: must have been kinda drunk tho :p falling, not noticing untill later etc
I'd disagree with this to an extent. I broke my wrist a couple of years back (the scaphoid if it matters to anyone) and I did not realise it at the time. The fact it was only a small bone, etc. helped, but it just felt like I had (reasonably badly) jarred my wrist. Not much pain unless I tried to bend it too far.
Didn't even suspect it was broken until it was just failing to heal after a little bit...
On February 04 2011 07:51 jaydee81 wrote: Sorry, but you are clearly not in touch with the actual life out there. I make a good part of the most valuable business for my company going out drinking with customers from Russia.
Being in business, I think, is a bit different from being a professional athlete. (let's call him a professional, as he is under a contract with Eg) Part of business is entertaining, but that's only a portion of business, and it's not like the whole office goes out drinking, just the party's responsible for bringing in the business – in this case Scoots – not Demuslim.
I'm not saying professional athletes don't have the right to go out drinking, or even get wasted. (I initially over-reacted to this news out of disappointment, fyi, and thought "how stupid") But, they do have the responsibility of thinking, "If I get into a fight, I could get injured and jeopardize my career."
If things would at one point go bad and I end the night with a beat up face or a broken arm, the result is I can't visit customers for a while. Big deal. Yes, life would be better if it didn't happen, but it's not like my employer is planning with me in weeks, just like EG is not planning with Demuslim in weeks. Yeah, it's a little set-back, but I'm quite certain EG will be more interested in the development over the next 2 years, rather than the next few weeks.
Many companies have personal behavior clauses in an employment contract. If you happened to get injured in a bar brawl (even on your own time) and could not preform a job function, your employment (under these clauses) would be at your employer's discretion. This could be the case with EG.
Actually, I would be surprised if Scoots said much more than "Wow, that's bad, etc, get better soon." Just like 99% of the people in this thread.
Scoots may have only reacted this way, however, we have to remember EG is a business at the end of the day. Scoot's responsibility is to everyone – his clients, his team, himself. This can't be taken lightly.
Again, it's awful that this has happened to any player, much less one as good as Demsulim. But, I think this is a good opportunity to have a discussion (maybe in a different thread) about the want to legitimize Starcraft as a sport. If people truly want to see that happen, players will have to begin monitoring their behavior like baseball, football and all other sorts of sports players – otherwise, they will begin to garner the same reactions and attentions that those sports' players receive when they act unaccording to being a paid athlete.
I bet Germany is full of ice and snow so it's normal for people to fall or not?
I pity the fools that think some working dude can have a drink at night, almost all young people in england would be unprofessional since it's almost a tradition for them..
On February 04 2011 07:31 teh_longinator wrote: I'M sorry. You sound kinda like youve only been in one fight because you're a pussy. I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
A guy physically hurting kids? Sounds to me like something illegal and something that the police might be able to intervene in. Also, was your younger brother unable to escape the situation along with you? The way you described it, sounds to me like it was more about teaching the guy a lesson rather than defending your brother from some sort of unavoidable harm. Did it make you feel like more of a man to fight rather than handle things the way they're "supposed" to be handled? Also what kind of example does that set for your younger brother showing that physical violence is an acceptable way to resolve a conflict?
Granted, the legal system and law enforcement are not always ideal, but generally I think it's best for all parties to avoid physical conflict whenever possible. Barring some sort of immediate and dire situation, I find it hard to believe that your fight to "defend" your younger brother was completely unavoidable, but then again you know the story better than I do so yeah... Still fighting isn't really something to be proud of and accusing someone of being a "pussy" for being against it is pretty unjustified.
You should visit Europe sometime, or at least burst out off your bubble in order to realize that (completely unrelated to this topic - I feel I still don't have enough info on what happened to make my judgement that in itself isn't really gonna change anything or the fact that I'm a fan of demuslim, all I can do is wish him well) running around in circles, away from people who wish to harm persistently isn't a viable answer to conflict resolution (not saying that violence is, it is however the only way to 'survive' on a daily basis in a pretty bad environment.) I get where you're coming from, however I was born in one of those such sceneries and I can assure you that I am not a violent person. However, if I was to trust the authorities to protect myself and my own - and I hate to sound dramatic as that just isn't me - I don't know where I would be today. I can only feel happy that you were born in a healthy enough environment that you have developed such strong beliefs that make you feel like people shouldn't stand up for themselves and the ones they like, as it is sometimes just about the only option.
Again, all the best to Demuslim.
I've been to Europe (England, France, and Italy so far. Hopefully Spain in the near future.) and I don't really see myself being in a bubble of any sort. I grew up in the middle of the economic spectrum (in NYC). I didn't have a privileged childhood, but I'll admit I didn't grow up in the projects either, although I went to school right next to them. I've been jumped and mugged enough times to know that not every single conflict is avoidable, but if we stop and think about a situation, there are often other ways around it that we're not going to see if we simply accept violence to be our only way out. If it's necessary to fight, then by all means, do so but in most instances, it's not a necessity be it in Europe, America, or anywhere else.
My experience has really just been that violence only begets more violence until it escalates to a point where it gets out of hand. Winning a fight often just meant another bigger fight later after some sort of retaliation and the cycle just went back and forth until people started ending up in the hospital. Eventually it wasn't even a matter of self defense anymore so much as the pride of having the last word. It's easy to think that you need to be sucked into it, but you really don't. Something so simple as walking and extra block or two to go around a bad area or making a little bit of effort to have some more patience can go a long way.
I'm not going to pretend it's the answer to every situation and I do understand that there are times when violence to a degree is indeed necessary, but I really don't believe it's something we should encourage or ever be proud of. Also, I don't believe we should demean people that do find another path in their lives for being "pussies" by not fighting, but rather commend them for their ability to make the choice that perhaps we couldn't.
On February 04 2011 07:49 Manifesto7 wrote: lol at the people who are crying "unprofessional". Professionals are the people that go out and drink the most.
There's a distinction between a Business Professional and a Professional Athlete. Both have the right to go out and drink, but a professional athlete is (unfortunately) held to a higher standard due to their need to be able to excel physically and mentally.
The higher standard involves thinking, "If I do X, what could happen to my career." Vs a business professional who it may seem has a larger range of freedoms. However, (see previous post) many companies hold people to personal ethics clauses that they can use to terminate you, so you don't reflect badly on the company. IE drunk driving for a lawyer WILL get you fired from your firm and possibly disbarred.
On February 04 2011 07:49 Manifesto7 wrote: lol at the people who are crying "unprofessional". Professionals are the people that go out and drink the most.
There's a distinction between a Business Professional and a Professional Athlete. Both have the right to go out and drink, but a professional athlete is (unfortunately) held to a higher standard due to their need to be able to excel physically and mentally.
But anyone can fall down and break their arm. It doesn't matter if you're drunk or not, landing on your elbow in a freak accident will cause most people's arms to break. Are you saying that because you're a Professional Athlete you should be confined to a small room with cushions on the walls so as to prevent you from ever getting hurt?
People need to learn to distinguish between personal and professional. What he does on his own personal time is none of our fucking business and for all I care he could be a rapist murderer in his free time. What he does in his free time has nothing to do with his professional career as a player.
Many companies have personal behavior clauses in an employment contract. If you happened to get injured in a bar brawl (even on your own time) and could not preform a job function, your employment (under these clauses) would be at your employer's discretion. This could be the case with EG.
I never said they couldn't in that case, I was trying to make the point that I highly doubt they would consider taking these steps. This thread has blown things out of proportion - I can read absolutely not one line of text stating that Demuslim was drunk when this happend.
Some drunk guys ran into them, something happend, they went drinking after that.
Actually, I would be surprised if Scoots said much more than "Wow, that's bad, etc, get better soon." Just like 99% of the people in this thread.
Scoots may have only reacted this way, however, we have to remember EG is a business at the end of the day. Scoot's responsibility is to everyone – his clients, his team, himself. This can't be taken lightly.
And since there is no info that would indicate he is anything else but the guy who got unlucky, there is nothing to worry about. I am sure Scoots will react if Demuslim starts accumulating a criminal record in Germany
Again, it's awful that this has happened to any player, much less one as good as Demsulim. But, I think this is a good opportunity to have a discussion (maybe in a different thread) about the want to legitimize Starcraft as a sport. If people truly want to see that happen, players will have to begin monitoring their behavior like baseball, football and all other sorts of sports players – otherwise, they will begin to garner the same reactions and attentions that those sports' players receive when they act unaccording to being a paid athlete.
Get well Demuslim.
Well, I don't think there is any spotlight on him or any other western Pro-Gamer when he goes out with friends in the evening. Let them enjoy it while it lasts. Let's wait some years and maybe he can pull a Tiger Woods some day!
On February 04 2011 08:39 SolHeiM wrote: But anyone can fall down and break their arm. It doesn't matter if you're drunk or not, landing on your elbow in a freak accident will cause most people's arms to break. Are you saying that because you're a Professional Athlete you should be confined to a small room with cushions on the walls so as to prevent you from ever getting hurt?
You're absolutely right, and if he had fallen off of a skateboard, we wouldn't be talking. Demuslim got into a bar brawl, which may be against team rules – as it would be in most professional sports. That's my point.
On February 04 2011 07:31 teh_longinator wrote: I'M sorry. You sound kinda like youve only been in one fight because you're a pussy. I grew up fighting... Kinda had to make the decision between saving my own ass, or taking a potential beating defending my younger brother from getting his ass kicked. Am I unprofessional? No, there was a guy who didn't want to be reasoned with, beating on kids smaller than himself.
Don't look down on him from your little pedestal like you have any idea what he did or did not do that night. All you know is that there was a fight, and he got injured later in the night.
A guy physically hurting kids? Sounds to me like something illegal and something that the police might be able to intervene in. Also, was your younger brother unable to escape the situation along with you? The way you described it, sounds to me like it was more about teaching the guy a lesson rather than defending your brother from some sort of unavoidable harm. Did it make you feel like more of a man to fight rather than handle things the way they're "supposed" to be handled? Also what kind of example does that set for your younger brother showing that physical violence is an acceptable way to resolve a conflict?
Granted, the legal system and law enforcement are not always ideal, but generally I think it's best for all parties to avoid physical conflict whenever possible. Barring some sort of immediate and dire situation, I find it hard to believe that your fight to "defend" your younger brother was completely unavoidable, but then again you know the story better than I do so yeah... Still fighting isn't really something to be proud of and accusing someone of being a "pussy" for being against it is pretty unjustified.
You should visit Europe sometime, or at least burst out off your bubble in order to realize that (completely unrelated to this topic - I feel I still don't have enough info on what happened to make my judgement that in itself isn't really gonna change anything or the fact that I'm a fan of demuslim, all I can do is wish him well) running around in circles, away from people who wish to harm persistently isn't a viable answer to conflict resolution (not saying that violence is, it is however the only way to 'survive' on a daily basis in a pretty bad environment.) I get where you're coming from, however I was born in one of those such sceneries and I can assure you that I am not a violent person. However, if I was to trust the authorities to protect myself and my own - and I hate to sound dramatic as that just isn't me - I don't know where I would be today. I can only feel happy that you were born in a healthy enough environment that you have developed such strong beliefs that make you feel like people shouldn't stand up for themselves and the ones they like, as it is sometimes just about the only option.
Again, all the best to Demuslim.
I've been to Europe (England, France, and Italy so far. Hopefully Spain in the near future.) and I don't really see myself being in a bubble of any sort. I grew up in the middle of the economic spectrum (in NYC). I didn't have a privileged childhood, but I'll admit I didn't grow up in the projects either, although I went to school right next to them. I've been jumped and mugged enough times to know that not every single conflict is avoidable, but if we stop and think about a situation, there are often other ways around it that we're not going to see if we simply accept violence to be our only way out. If it's necessary to fight, then by all means, do so but in most instances, it's not a necessity be it in Europe, America, or anywhere else.
My experience has really just been that violence only begets more violence until it escalates to a point where it gets out of hand. Winning a fight often just meant another bigger fight later after some sort of retaliation and the cycle just went back and forth until people started ending up in the hospital. Eventually it wasn't even a matter of self defense anymore so much as the pride of having the last word. It's easy to think that you need to be sucked into it, but you really don't. Something so simple as walking and extra block or two to go around a bad area or making a little bit of effort to have some more patience can go a long way.
I'm not going to pretend it's the answer to every situation and I do understand that there are times when violence to a degree is indeed necessary, but I really don't believe it's something we should encourage or ever be proud of. Also, I don't believe we should demean people that do find another path in their lives for being "pussies" by not fighting, but rather commend them for their ability to make the choice that perhaps we couldn't.
Allright, this is obviously a case of huge cultural difference/misunderstanding:
A guy physically hurting kids? Sounds to me like something illegal and something that the police might be able to intervene in.
No, a kid physically hurting kids of his equal age. In a lot of European countries there is a minimum age for people to be criminally responsible. For example, if a 6 year old kid shoots someone, the 6-year old won't be convicted to jail because he is too young.
That said, I am assuming that when people say "had fights when growing up", you have to understand that we are talking about kids roughly of equal age. And kids can be absolutely brutal, to a point where I sometimes wonder if adults know what is really going on.
I am big and strong in size, and I was so even when I was young, so no-one dared to actually touch me, but from age of 8 to 15 (while I was in school with same kids) I was under almost daily mental assault. Basically, I was treated like the class doormat. Like I said, nothing physical went on with me, but.. to give an example, this was one of comments that classmates gave me: Person A: "Why is <name> not in school today?" Person B: "I think <name> killed himself because he lost to Greentellon in <game x>"
Of course my real life name isn't "Greentellon", but the point is, comments like above were daily, almost hourly occurance for me. Why did they do that to me? To this date I have no idea, it just started suddenly.
That is not "some guy" that was abusing me when I was 10 years old, it was other 10 year old kids. I find it not very far away leap that the "guy physically hurting kids" is actually some guy of equal age, and both parties of the fight are underage.
What are you going to do? Tell to a teacher? Tell to a parent? Most they can do is talk to the other 10 year old, and then the exact same thing will happen tomorrow, only worse because I didn't stand up to myself.
So I do agree that only acceptable time to fight is in self defense. However, to me it seems that that is exacly what the "fights when they grew up" were: self defense.
On February 04 2011 08:42 jaydee81 wrote: I never said they couldn't in that case, I was trying to make the point that I highly doubt they would consider taking these steps. This thread has blown things out of proportion - I can read absolutely not one line of text stating that Demuslim was drunk when this happend.
Some drunk guys ran into them, something happend, they went drinking after that.
I believe Rotterdam had a post stating that they had had a few drinks, but maybe I misread it.
And since there is no info that would indicate he is anything else but the guy who got unlucky, there is nothing to worry about. I am sure Scoots will react if Demuslim starts accumulating a criminal record in Germany Well, I don't think there is any spotlight on him or any other western Pro-Gamer when he goes out with friends in the evening. Let them enjoy it while it lasts. Let's wait some years and maybe he can pull a Tiger Woods some day!
I think you're absolutely right Jaydee. This thread is crazy and I think I'll stop adding to it. I just wanted to get it out there, companies are starting to sign larger and larger endorsements for esports and this is an unfortunate incident, but one players are going to have to start thinking about.
On February 04 2011 08:12 shell wrote: I bet Germany is full of ice and snow so it's normal for people to fall or not?
I pity the fools that think some working dude can have a drink at night, almost all young people in england would be unprofessional since it's almost a tradition for them..
Na, there was a little bit of frost a few days ago in the area around here (near cologne where it happened), but I don't think that was the reason, he just got unlucky...
People who keep bullshitting around on this thread should just read Rotterdams comment (added in 1st post) and quit it... :|
On February 04 2011 02:50 clampOK wrote: I think Demuslim knows his own body well enough to not reinjure himself in 45hour practice session.
The issue isn't how well he knows his body. The fact that his peers (both foreign and koreans) are training 12 hours a day and continually improving is why this has such a huge effect. He was already obviously behind skill wise in certain departments. I'm sure that he can return in a few weeks and begin playing again, but his arm wont be in the condition to remotely match the amount of hours that go into the game each day by a pro korean. So when trying to catch up skill wise, and also being disadvantaged in terms of practice come into effect because of the injury, it is actually a pretty serious blow to his gaming career (obviously not to his prior achievements). His self determination and perseverance must be stronger then ever to get through the next few months.
Life sucks. He might never ever be able to close the skill gap to BitByeBit.Prime etc again :/
On February 04 2011 08:39 SolHeiM wrote: But anyone can fall down and break their arm. It doesn't matter if you're drunk or not, landing on your elbow in a freak accident will cause most people's arms to break. Are you saying that because you're a Professional Athlete you should be confined to a small room with cushions on the walls so as to prevent you from ever getting hurt?
You're absolutely right, and if he had fallen off of a skateboard, we wouldn't be talking. Demuslim got into a bar brawl, which may be against team rules – as it would be in most professional sports. That's my point.
But anyone can get into a fight because some cunt feels like being a cunt. The fact that it happened because he was at, or close to, a bar does in no way reflect on him as a professional. Some people just want to be cunts and pick on people and no matter what you do they pick a fight.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
imagine you pay someone to do something.
imagine that person got drunk and irresponsibly broke a limb, making them unable to do that something you pay them to do.
a boss in the real world would force him to take unpaid leave, holidays or just get rid of that person for good and replace him with someone more responsible.
If this is what your boss would do to you, then you obviously don't have a lot of value to him or your company. Bad luck dude.
And I have to ask you what you're basing the "drunk" and "irresponsibly" on. *sigh*
On February 04 2011 08:42 jaydee81 wrote: I never said they couldn't in that case, I was trying to make the point that I highly doubt they would consider taking these steps. This thread has blown things out of proportion - I can read absolutely not one line of text stating that Demuslim was drunk when this happend.
Some drunk guys ran into them, something happend, they went drinking after that.
I believe Rotterdam had a post stating that they had had a few drinks, but maybe I misread it.
And since there is no info that would indicate he is anything else but the guy who got unlucky, there is nothing to worry about. I am sure Scoots will react if Demuslim starts accumulating a criminal record in Germany Well, I don't think there is any spotlight on him or any other western Pro-Gamer when he goes out with friends in the evening. Let them enjoy it while it lasts. Let's wait some years and maybe he can pull a Tiger Woods some day!
I think you're absolutely right Jaydee. This thread is crazy and I think I'll stop adding to it. I just wanted to get it out there, companies are starting to sign larger and larger endorsements for esports and this is an unfortunate incident, but one players are going to have to start thinking about.
Yeah you are absolutely correct, I answered to some post before actually getting to Rotterdams statement.
DAmnnnnnn this blows for him, a progamer losing his hand is like a sprinter losing his leg GL Demuslim im sad I wont get to see you in Assembly but hopefully you will be back on your feet soon :D
I've hurt myself badly jackin around with friends before, too- it all depends how it is communicated to others... I dislocated my pinky finger after almost knockin my buddy out... At first glance, that looks like violence. In reality, I slipped on the grass and dragged my buddy down with me. My finger happened to catch on his sleeve and dislocated in 2 places... While this isn't the perfect analogy, it reinforces the point I'm trying to make.
Hopefully this turns out like on of those moves where some fighter loses his vision but all his other senses go to lvl 85. Hopefully his happens to his other hand
It sounds like alcohol definitely played a large role though. I doubt he would lose his balance and have multiple fractures if he was sober, it's not like he's 80 years old. Kids should not be breaking half the bones in their body from a simple fall.
Yeah, because you never stumbled in your whole life, except for when you were drunk. (This is an attempt of irony) There could be loads of reasons why something like this would happen, and it's most certainly none of our business. Not that it matters anyway.
Wow, this is terrible news. I hope he gets better soon.
On February 04 2011 15:11 AlphaWave wrote: It sounds like alcohol definitely played a large role though. I doubt he would lose his balance and have multiple fractures if he was sober, it's not like he's 80 years old. Kids should not be breaking half the bones in their body from a simple fall.
I've fallen backwards off my chair many times in my life and I've been perfectly fine. An old friend of mine fell backwards once off a stool, broke his arm and had it in a cast for several weeks.
I've sprained a finger from getting a basketball passed to me once in a game. A friend of mine sprained a wrist from tripping over a laptop cord once.
On February 04 2011 15:11 AlphaWave wrote: It sounds like alcohol definitely played a large role though. I doubt he would lose his balance and have multiple fractures if he was sober, it's not like he's 80 years old. Kids should not be breaking half the bones in their body from a simple fall.
I've fallen backwards off my chair many times in my life and I've been perfectly fine. An old friend of mine fell backwards once off a stool, broke his arm and had it in a cast for several weeks.
I've sprained a finger from getting a basketball passed to me once in a game. A friend of mine sprained a wrist from tripping over a laptop cord once.
Shit can happen. Get over it.
Agreed, the wrist is so fragile, any fall will break it ;;.
I'm amazed how this news sparked such a huge discussion about morals and professionalism when all that happened was someone falling down and unluckily breaking something. Ah well. As many before me I hope that Demuslim gets better soon and is able to continue playing on the level he was prior to the accident, i.e. completely rolling the opposition.
P.S.: I'm actually excited that a thread of mine made it to the community news / headlines.
It's amazing to me all the people in this thread that apparently:
A. Have never accidentally hurt themselves B. Have never made a mistake and had to pay for it in an unfortunate way. C. Seem to think they have ANY FUCKING CLUE what actually happened.
Guess what kids, you weren't there. You don't know anything about how it went down, and you have absolutely no right to pass judgment on something you literally know nothing about.
He's a fantastic, well mannered player who deserves only our respect and wishes for a speedy recovery so he can return to the game that we all love.
Im pretty sure why everyone is getting the wrong idea about what happened here is because people are using the word skirmish. should of been worded like "Demuslim falls and breaks hand" or "Demuslim suffers terrible terrible damage"
After having my entire hand caught in a rat trap (bigger badder version of a mouse trap with sharp teeth on the holding side) I can safely tell you shock is the best thing ever, the rush of adrenalin is like mofo it doesn't even hurt, until some time later ... natural anesthetic win.
If you see/feel you're getting hurt and it's a powerful enough pain, you're not gonna feel it properly until some time later, your brain/body is kinder to you than it should be.
Who cares about what he should or shouldn't do. It's his life so shut the fuck up about his behaviour. That's fucking sucks for Demuslim and that's all.
Hello everyone, please excuse the user name, its part of my business. My name is Reg Baker, and i am Bens (DeMuslims) father. Should you wish to verify, my e-mail address is [MOD EDIT] Having read some of these comments i feel compelled to clear the air. Firstly, Ben,Rotty, and Jo were enjoying a drink Monday evening and unfortunately were verbally abused by a group of people. Although they sensibly moved away to avoid confrontation, the abusers persued and got physical. Whereupon Ben, was forced to defend himself and punched assailant unfortunately injuring knuckles in the process. During following "skirmish/fight" Ben had bad fall on his elbow, before dispatching opponent. Clearly the main thing now, is his speedy recovery, thankyou to everyone who expressed their well wishes. To the likes of MJLowell i really have nothing to say. Reg Baker
On February 04 2011 23:29 giovanni9 wrote: Hello everyone, please excuse the user name, its part of my business. My name is Reg Baker, and i am Bens (DeMuslims) father. Should you wish to verify, my e-mail address is [MOD EDIT]. Having read some of these comments i feel compelled to clear the air. Firstly, Ben,Rotty, and Jo were enjoying a drink Monday evening and unfortunately were verbally abused by a group of people. Although they sensibly moved away to avoid confrontation, the abusers persued and got physical. Whereupon Ben, was forced to defend himself and punched assailant unfortunately injuring knuckles in the process. During following "skirmish/fight" Ben had bad fall on his elbow, before dispatching opponent. Clearly the main thing now, is his speedy recovery, thankyou to everyone who expressed their well wishes. To the likes of MJLowell i really have nothing to say. Reg Baker
Glad to hear that he's relatively ok! It's very annoying when ppl accuse someone of wrong-doing when they have no knowledge of the incident. Very glad to hear your account of it!
Get well soon, Ben. And for those of you who think Mr. Lowell was out of line with his comments, feel free to let him know personally. mikelowell@the-ghetto.org
On February 04 2011 08:12 shell wrote: I bet Germany is full of ice and snow so it's normal for people to fall or not?
I pity the fools that think some working dude can have a drink at night, almost all young people in england would be unprofessional since it's almost a tradition for them..
lol dude really 1. have you ever been to germany? 2. it was in a bar
the hand isnt even the bad part, breaking your elbow is a serious injury and he mustve landed really damn hard on it, his hand should heal up pretty well and fast but his elbow will probably bother him for the rest of his life...i fractured my wrist skateboarding and never got it checked out til a year later after it already had healed...and doing the stretches day9 suggested in daily #252 i really noticed a lot of stiffness in my wrist and not being able to move it nearly as freely as my other. ive never broken my elbow but ive had some serious 'swellbows" from skateboarding and trust me, that shit SUCKS...you cant extend your arm fully for at least 2 weeks, i cant imagine how bad breaking it must be. you''re elbow is pretty damn strong.
p.s. he mustve been pretty drunk to not realize that it was broken...
On February 05 2011 02:49 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: p.s. he mustve been pretty drunk to not realize that it was broken...
I don't know how bad breaking your elbow actually is but I've broken my forearm/wrist on a school trip once and waited until I was back home 2 days later because I didn't want to go to a hospital in the middle of nowhere... Also you normally got that "Ah, it's probably going to be better tomorrow" feeling going on.
Rotterdam was pretty clear about the fact that they weren't totally hammered when it happened.
Its amazing how some people try to destroy the reputation of Ben. Its also completely unreasonable to me why people state things which they have no clue about. I hope he recovers fast since he really was in amazing shape (saw his match history) and other than that he's a great person so I hope we see a lot more of him in the future.
Thanks Silvano, he is mending well, and i guarantee he will be in great shape soon. yes, somewhat sad that some persons wishing to believe a jaundiced view of the situation, but that is their option. Hope you are well. Reg
I hate those guys who destroy those evenings. I wish i would have been there, i would have kicked these guys in their asses. God damn... @ Demuslim, i wish you all the best. Hope you will get healthy soon. Youre a real nice person and a really kickass terran Really looking forward to see a lot awesome games of you in the future
I wish i could break every friggin bone in the abusers/assailents body. I'm not even joking. F@#$ them. I dont care if he wasn't beat up. that group of ppl should die. I'm sure it would actually make the world a better place.
Anyway, I hope you recover quickly Demuslim cos we sure dont want to see ur moster shape disappear.
On February 04 2011 07:49 Manifesto7 wrote: lol at the people who are crying "unprofessional". Professionals are the people that go out and drink the most.
agreed with this.... professionals need to blow off steam
Messing up any joint is always terrible Nevermind when it interferes with SC2!
My dad had the bones in his elbow shatter when someone ran under him while playing basketball. He landed right on it, needless to say, shattering it. Hopefully DeMuslim comes out just as lucky as mah dad and has full range of motion with just some soreness for a month or two~!
On February 05 2011 02:49 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: p.s. he mustve been pretty drunk to not realize that it was broken...
I don't know how bad breaking your elbow actually is but I've broken my forearm/wrist on a school trip once and waited until I was back home 2 days later because I didn't want to go to a hospital in the middle of nowhere... Also you normally got that "Ah, it's probably going to be better tomorrow" feeling going on.
Sounds like me.
I managed to drive against a traffic light in 8th grade (which was like 10 years ago)with my bike on a school trip. Fell heavily to the ground, and my right hand kinda hurt the whole trip. I managed to drive the whole way back to the school, and the next day in the morning my left ankle did hurt.
Well, turned out it was broken.
So yeah, no biggy that you can break something and didnt instantly realize it.
---
All the best to benjamin, hope he quickly recovers and is able to attack at iem finals.
He will get out of the hospital on monday most likely, but was already able to move his arm and hand quite a bit this morning, with a bit of luck hes playing within 12/13 days, he had surgery a few hours after the incident took place and has been recovring ever since, I'll pay him another visit tomorrow morning before I go to work to send him all the best wishes many people did and hopefully bring some positiv news to this forum as well
I kinda doubt this, fracture consolidation is slow, 12/13 days with an elbow fracture is impossible, unless it was just a very very slight fracture. Expect at least 20 days, many more if he broke of the radius and the ulnar, and the pronosuppination is compromised.
And this is only for fracture consolidation, he might require some rehab and physical therapy if the injury is serious enough, though we don't know that so I won't speculate.
On February 06 2011 06:14 Deekin[ wrote: Pretty dumb being a progamer and go and break his hand.
Quite hilarious in the same time though.
Yes, he obviously did it on purpose to make you laugh.
Ofcourse not, but I still think it was really irresponsible of him
You never go out?
Either way to translate it to language you are familiar with, things like this can happen to everyone. Ofcoarse a little of it has to do with responsibility but also rng plays a big role. He just got unlucky being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
On February 06 2011 06:14 Deekin[ wrote: Pretty dumb being a progamer and go and break his hand.
Quite hilarious in the same time though.
Yes, he obviously did it on purpose to make you laugh.
Ofcourse not, but I still think it was really irresponsible of him
You never go out?
Either way to translate it to language you are familiar with, things like this can happen to everyone. Ofcoarse a little of it has to do with responsibility but also rng plays a big role. He just got unlucky being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
This is very true, it is very unfortunate that this has happened to him but it can happen to anyone who goes out to a big (or small) city to get a few drinks with friends. There is always super drunk people looking for trouble.
Jesus christ, so many people being dicks about it. You really should try going out once a year or so, things can get rough if you've got bad luck, and if you fall, you fall. I hope he gets better soon!
what a drama, soooo many proffesional athelethes have gotten into similar or MUCH worse situations. This is nothing serious nor does it mean anything like 'unproffesionalism' or 'irresponsible'. As long as nothing, serious, happens to a player/athlethe everything stays quiet (experience) and if something happens still basically nothng happens (again experience). Contract or not, shit happens and people 'close' to you (including managers/trainers/coaches/etc.) will understand more than anyone else. They want to see you on your feet asap, they won't be saying you've been irresponsible because you fell... lol
Hope to see DeMusliM get well soon, haven't seen much of his SC2 yet but can't wait to see him in action in some event when I have time to follow, take care.
Seriously, I figured the people here on teamliquid were smart enough to realize that arguing with someone who is pretty much a celebrity on an official blizzard board, is equivalent to trying to teach a 3 year old logical thought.
Respect to the guys father. And a tip of my hat to Ben who I can only assume is such a baller and a fun loving drunk he broke his bones and didn't notice until later when he attempted to masterbate (thats a joke). Awesome.
On February 07 2011 07:52 nybbas wrote: Seriously, I figured the people here on teamliquid were smart enough to realize that arguing with someone who is pretty much a celebrity on an official blizzard board, is equivalent to trying to teach a 3 year old logical thought.
This moron needs to be banned.
Actually, the travesty that is Unreal Bnet isn't even an official Blizzard board to begin with, just a pathetic knockoff. Surprised an official from the real Battlenet hasn't served the board owner with a C&D.
Wow what a douche. I can't believe some people get so worked up over something minor like this.
I understand it would be silly for DeMusliM's dad to helicopter parent his way into a discussion thread on TeamLiquid, but I also understand he probably didn't read anything I said. His dad came on this message board and took a potshot at me. And I have no reason to be sorry about anything I said. What did you want me to say?
I'm working on a really, really long entry (which I'll publish as a blog entry on this site) explaining why I said the things I said. Since apparently, this forum wants competitive gaming to be taken seriously as a business venture but think it's okay for the players to dick around the people that invest money in them. And no, that doesn't make me an asshole, no matter how hard you want to buddy-buddy with the people who play Starcraft for a living. It just means I have a solid understanding of how the business of competitive games (athletic or not) works.
On February 07 2011 07:52 nybbas wrote: Seriously, I figured the people here on teamliquid were smart enough to realize that arguing with someone who is pretty much a celebrity on an official blizzard board, is equivalent to trying to teach a 3 year old logical thought.
This moron needs to be banned.
Actually, the travesty that is Unreal Bnet isn't even an official Blizzard board to begin with, just a pathetic knockoff. Surprised an official from the real Battlenet hasn't served the board owner with a C&D.
I'm going to take a guess from reading these posts (which can be accessed through your profile)...
Good to see that the idiot responsible for these gems of a thread finally got the ban button pushed on him. However, he seems to be carrying on and encouraging his troll buddies to "take over." Just wanted to give you all a heads up.
This travesty of a site needs to be DOS'ed.
...in conjunction with the fact you have a post history on the Battle.net forums (which can only be accessed through Google cache), you are really, really mad that someone on the Battle.net forums affiliated with the Unreal Battle.net forums baited you into a permaban. Along with your post in this thread, half your post history extols the evils of the Unreal Battle.net forums. Uh, yeah.
I don't have strong feelings about this story one way or another but I wanted to clarify what you are trying to argue. At what point do you think that DeMuslim acted irresponsibly? When he decided to go to the bar, or when he entered the fight? Or some other point of decision. If you could reply it would be most gratifying to me
On February 07 2011 11:23 JeanLuc wrote: @ Michael J Lowell
I don't have strong feelings about this story one way or another but I wanted to clarify what you are trying to argue. At what point do you think that DeMuslim acted irresponsibly? When he decided to go to the bar, or when he entered the fight? Or some other point of decision. If you could reply it would be most gratifying to me
So basically what his point is, that if you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to bars. Ever. That is realistic.
I should be banned for feeding the trolls *sigh*
Now, if it comes out that somehow demuslim started the fight, or did something otherwise to what the story we have been told is, I can agree. So unless you have some facts we don't, you are nothing but an idiot.
On February 07 2011 11:29 nybbas wrote: So basically what his point is, that if you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to bars. Ever. That is realistic.
I should be banned for feeding the trolls *sigh*
Now, if it comes out that somehow demuslim started the fight, or did something otherwise to what the story we have been told is, I can agree. So unless you have some facts we don't, you are nothing but an idiot.
If you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to places or perform in activities that could harm your ability to play professional sports. Reading the comments in this thread, I've learned bar fighting is a British national sport. Things happened because of it.
On February 07 2011 11:29 nybbas wrote: So basically what his point is, that if you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to bars. Ever. That is realistic.
I should be banned for feeding the trolls *sigh*
Now, if it comes out that somehow demuslim started the fight, or did something otherwise to what the story we have been told is, I can agree. So unless you have some facts we don't, you are nothing but an idiot.
If you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to places or perform in activities that could harm your ability to play professional sports. Reading the comments in this thread, I've learned bar fighting is a British national sport. Things happened because of it.
I'll save the rest for my rebuttal.
why no bann? its clear by now that he doesnt give a fuck about the story and only watns to annoy the people on this board :/ Sometimes i dont understand the mods here.... to hard on one side and then this
On February 07 2011 11:44 Gentleman7 wrote: If you think DeMuslim was taking unnecessary risks by going to a bar, should no pro-gamers be allowed to drink anymore? That's ridiculous.
I didn't say they couldn't drink. I'm not dissenting because he went to a bar and drank. I said they shouldn't be going to bars if (as people in this thread were amply willing to demonstrate) there is a demonstrable risk in doing so.
On February 07 2011 11:29 nybbas wrote: So basically what his point is, that if you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to bars. Ever. That is realistic.
I should be banned for feeding the trolls *sigh*
Now, if it comes out that somehow demuslim started the fight, or did something otherwise to what the story we have been told is, I can agree. So unless you have some facts we don't, you are nothing but an idiot.
If you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to places or perform in activities that could harm your ability to play professional sports. Reading the comments in this thread, I've learned bar fighting is a British national sport. Things happened because of it.
I'll save the rest for my rebuttal.
why no bann? its clear by now that he doesnt give a fuck about the story and only watns to annoy the people on this board :/ Sometimes i dont understand the mods here.... to hard on one side and then this
Yes. I just want to annoy the people on this board. Right.
On February 07 2011 11:29 nybbas wrote: So basically what his point is, that if you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to bars. Ever. That is realistic.
I should be banned for feeding the trolls *sigh*
Now, if it comes out that somehow demuslim started the fight, or did something otherwise to what the story we have been told is, I can agree. So unless you have some facts we don't, you are nothing but an idiot.
If you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to places or perform in activities that could harm your ability to play professional sports. Reading the comments in this thread, I've learned bar fighting is a British national sport. Things happened because of it.
I'll save the rest for my rebuttal.
Look at this kid trying to act all smart and shit , while making a dick out of himself. You have no facts , you have no proof , you're just throwing speculations left and right ,thinking u know anything about the contract between Demuslim and EG. The fact that you continue to fuel this pointless debate is beyond my comprehention, considering most of the ppl on this forum have disagreed with you countless times.
On February 07 2011 11:29 nybbas wrote: So basically what his point is, that if you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to bars. Ever. That is realistic.
I should be banned for feeding the trolls *sigh*
Now, if it comes out that somehow demuslim started the fight, or did something otherwise to what the story we have been told is, I can agree. So unless you have some facts we don't, you are nothing but an idiot.
If you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to places or perform in activities that could harm your ability to play professional sports. Reading the comments in this thread, I've learned bar fighting is a British national sport. Things happened because of it.
I'll save the rest for my rebuttal.
Look at this kid trying to act all smart and shit , while making a dick out of himself. You have no facts , you have no proof , you're just throwing speculations left and right ,thinking u know anything about the contract between Demuslim and EG. The fact that you continue to fuel this pointless debate is beyond my comprehention, considering most of the ppl on this forum have disagreed with you countless times.
Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little
On February 07 2011 13:01 Leviance wrote: Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little
The problem is, I am fairly certain in any modern day culture, going to the "bar" is an incredibly common practice. This is why I am convinced he is purely trolling, and we are just feeding it :/
MJL just needs to relax. Im sure Demuslim regrets his actions and really we understand your take on the situation MJL. I understand how you are one of those people that always needs the last word to feel good about him/herself, but at this point whether people agree to disagree, your posts are becoming stagnant and full of repetitive comments and opinions. If you have something new to say, say it, but we understand your position.
On February 07 2011 13:01 Leviance wrote: Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little
The problem is, I am fairly certain in any modern day culture, going to the "bar" is an incredibly common practice. This is why I am convinced he is purely trolling, and we are just feeding it :/
Yeah, I became familiar with that when I realized most of the people who vehemently disagreed with me were European. The issue I have with the cultural argument is that I would have said the same thing if the headline something as simple as "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball game", unless Evil Geniuses signed off on it.
I don't think you guys quite understand what he's saying. He's not saying going to a bar is bad. He's not saying that it's not extremely commonplace. He's saying that if it's a risky activity, as someone with a lot to lose, he shouldn't take part in it. Going to bars is extremely common in the U.S. but sometimes stupid things happen. Everyone knows that when something bad happens it often happens to the person with the most to lose, or they get blamed for it. Many professional athletes in the U.S. are contractually obligated to all sorts of restrictions during their seasons to avoid any possibility of injury or legal trouble that might hinder their ability to perform their job. Going out drinking is a recognized risk, however commonplace it may be. Also, very fun. Edit:
On February 07 2011 13:01 Leviance wrote: Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little
The problem is, I am fairly certain in any modern day culture, going to the "bar" is an incredibly common practice. This is why I am convinced he is purely trolling, and we are just feeding it :/
Yeah, I became familiar with that when I realized most of the people who vehemently disagreed with me were European. The issue I have with the cultural argument is that I would have said the same thing if the headline something as simple as "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball game", unless Evil Geniuses signed off on it.
On February 07 2011 13:20 socommaster123 wrote: MJL just needs to relax. Im sure Demuslim regrets his actions and really we understand your take on the situation MJL. I understand how you are one of those people that always needs the last word to feel good about him/herself, but at this point whether people agree to disagree, your posts are becoming stagnant and full of repetitive comments and opinions. If you have something new to say, say it, but we understand your position.
Posted nearly 200 replies ago:
On February 04 2011 04:13 MichaelJLowell wrote: I've already made my side of the argument. You don't agree, whatever. I'm just going to end up repeating my arguments ad nauseum until every person on TeamLiquid has read this thread. Later.
I only felt it was necessary to continue replying to posts because 1) DeMusliM's father chimed in on what I had to say, and 2) Someone relayed a message I made on another message board ("I think TeamLiquid is going to ban me") and came to the conclusion I was deliberately trying to make a ruckus. I wasn't and I felt it was necessary to defend that I wasn't, lest I do get banned.
On February 07 2011 13:32 AmishNukes wrote: I don't think you guys quite understand what he's saying. He's not saying going to a bar is bad. He's not saying that it's not extremely commonplace. He's saying that if it's a risky activity, as someone with a lot to lose, he shouldn't take part in it. Going to bars is extremely common in the U.S. but sometimes stupid things happen. Everyone knows that when something bad happens it often happens to the person with the most to lose, or they get blamed for it. Many professional athletes in the U.S. are contractually obligated to all sorts of restrictions during their seasons to avoid any possibility of injury or legal trouble that might hinder their ability to perform their job. Going out drinking is a recognized risk, however commonplace it may be. Also, very fun.
On February 07 2011 13:01 Leviance wrote: Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little
The problem is, I am fairly certain in any modern day culture, going to the "bar" is an incredibly common practice. This is why I am convinced he is purely trolling, and we are just feeding it :/
Yeah, I became familiar with that when I realized most of the people who vehemently disagreed with me were European. The issue I have with the cultural argument is that I would have said the same thing if the headline something as simple as "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball game", unless Evil Geniuses signed off on it.
Yeah I understand that you never said it was a bad thing and I did before I wrote this, but even playing a basketball game is not comparable, it's not what everyone does, it approaches, but really in Germany going to bar is not like playing a basketball game because not everyone plays basketball/does sports - I'm just trying to convince you that it is even more than just "common", and the development of the thread just makes perfect sense to me taking into account that you somewhat understand but don't have any idea (how should you, you're not living over here) that going to a bar is more an activity like going to a supermarket, NOT like playing a basketball game/do other fun stuff, you know, it really comes down only to that, that it is extremely every-day life; As I stated, in my opinion it makes perfect sense(!) how a whole thread could grow into this because the measurement of the cultures is extremely off, that's why no one gets the points of the others, and you can kind of see how the American posters that disagree with you "kind of" support the idea of the "commonness" but the Europeans really take this already completely for granted that it is the most common thing to do not even understanding how you could reconsider it.
And you might laugh now, but I could very well imagine that if DeMusliM broke his arm skiing/doing other sports; you would have found more people from Europe that would have agreed with you why he takes such a risk when he needs his arms and hands for progaming than you find now, it would have been a more even pro/con ratio :D
I didn't even wanna get involved into the discussion, but these subtle cultural differences are interesting and needed to be pointed out, because often no one realizes them in an argument that has gotten out of hand. Everyone is looking through his cultural glasses to some extent.
Edit: a little more of my understanding:
All the people who agree with you in this thread that DeMu shouldn't have "taken the risk" of going into a bar would of course also agree with you if he broke his arm doing sports that doing this sport was too much of a risk.
Most of the American people who agree with the European 'disagreers' in this thread would probably also disagree with your opinion on the sports thing.
If it actually was an sports accident, you would find all the Europeans who disagreed with you in this thread split in about half, some thinking it's too much of a risk, some thinking it's bad luck but sports shouldn't be forbidden for progamers.
Makes sense to me. The pub is a cultural separation, but the alcohol thing is really no different in the States. I'm sure "But I was drunk!" is just as common there. Just do keep in mind that as far as the "it would be an accident to get hurt playing basketball" thing, one of our baseball players (Aaron Boone) had his contract voided by the Yankees when he blew out his knee playing basketball. There's tons of precedent for American athletes getting the hammer from their clubs for off-hand recreational activities. I can't find any instance of a European star athlete having a contract voided for any of these things, so unless somebody wants to correct me on that, it probably explains a couple of things.
On February 07 2011 16:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Makes sense to me. The pub is a cultural separation, but the alcohol thing is really no different in the States. I'm sure "But I was drunk!" is just as common there. Just do keep in mind that as far as the "it would be an accident to get hurt playing basketball" thing, one of our baseball players (Aaron Boone) had his contract voided by the Yankees when he blew out his knee playing basketball. There's tons of precedent for American athletes getting the hammer from their clubs for off-hand recreational activities. I can't find any instance of a European star athlete having a contract voided for any of these things, so unless somebody wants to correct me on that, it probably explains a couple of things.
and some of these clauses include getting jumped at a club? Because hasn't that been pretty much the entire basis of your argument up until now?
I understand very clearly that athletes can get in trouble for injuring themselves for doing things like playing basketball etc. and I understand how that is in their contracts; however, have you really seen instances where athletes are putting their contracts at risk by going to a bar? Because you have somehow been making a leap of a connection between very risky recreational activity, and going to bars...
Correct :p, or atleast anytime soon, dropped him a visit before going to work but the docs said he was free to go, now he has some time to rest and before you guys know it, he's back :D
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
What I do not get is why you started this argument at all. Fine, so you think people should cease doing fun activities that involve some risk when they are being paid. That`s okay, you`re entitled to your opinion. But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it? And besides that, why keep on "debating" it? You expressed your argument, and opinion, no need to reiterate it over and over and over and over.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
What I do not get is why you started this argument at all. Fine, so you think people should cease doing fun activities that involve some risk when they are being paid. That`s okay, you`re entitled to your opinion. But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it? And besides that, why keep on "debating" it? You expressed your argument, and opinion, no need to reiterate it over and over and over and over.
On February 07 2011 16:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Makes sense to me. The pub is a cultural separation, but the alcohol thing is really no different in the States. I'm sure "But I was drunk!" is just as common there. Just do keep in mind that as far as the "it would be an accident to get hurt playing basketball" thing, one of our baseball players (Aaron Boone) had his contract voided by the Yankees when he blew out his knee playing basketball. There's tons of precedent for American athletes getting the hammer from their clubs for off-hand recreational activities. I can't find any instance of a European star athlete having a contract voided for any of these things, so unless somebody wants to correct me on that, it probably explains a couple of things.
and some of these clauses include getting jumped at a club? Because hasn't that been pretty much the entire basis of your argument up until now?
I understand very clearly that athletes can get in trouble for injuring themselves for doing things like playing basketball etc. and I understand how that is in their contracts; however, have you really seen instances where athletes are putting their contracts at risk by going to a bar? Because you have somehow been making a leap of a connection between very risky recreational activity, and going to bars...
And that just involves professional athletes. I'm sure I could keep digging if I wanted to go with the college game. The top link involved an illegal firearm, which is another can of worms all in itself, that a lot of these players feel it's absolutely necessary to carry guns in these places whether they're allowed to have them or not.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
What I do not get is why you started this argument at all. Fine, so you think people should cease doing fun activities that involve some risk when they are being paid. That`s okay, you`re entitled to your opinion. But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it? And besides that, why keep on "debating" it? You expressed your argument, and opinion, no need to reiterate it over and over and over and over.
Go read what I originally wrote, the first significant post I made in the thread, my original detailed explanation, my original declaration that I was done with the thread because people were making the same comments over and over that I had already addressed, which I then had to go back on because of how the thread transpired later. If I hadn't seen that DeMusliM's father had addressed me (which I caught on the very first page because I wanted to see if the official account had changed), I would have kept it that way.
On February 07 2011 19:05 Grend wrote:
But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it?
So you're not allowed to say typically unoffensive things on message boards if there's a chance it could offend the user base?
So you're not allowed to say typically unoffensive things on message boards if there's a chance it could offend the user base?
So someone's not allowed to do a typically risk free thing in real life if there's a chance he/someone else could have their livelyhood/personal wellbeing harmed/jeapordized?
On February 07 2011 16:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Makes sense to me. The pub is a cultural separation, but the alcohol thing is really no different in the States. I'm sure "But I was drunk!" is just as common there. Just do keep in mind that as far as the "it would be an accident to get hurt playing basketball" thing, one of our baseball players (Aaron Boone) had his contract voided by the Yankees when he blew out his knee playing basketball. There's tons of precedent for American athletes getting the hammer from their clubs for off-hand recreational activities. I can't find any instance of a European star athlete having a contract voided for any of these things, so unless somebody wants to correct me on that, it probably explains a couple of things.
and some of these clauses include getting jumped at a club? Because hasn't that been pretty much the entire basis of your argument up until now?
I understand very clearly that athletes can get in trouble for injuring themselves for doing things like playing basketball etc. and I understand how that is in their contracts; however, have you really seen instances where athletes are putting their contracts at risk by going to a bar? Because you have somehow been making a leap of a connection between very risky recreational activity, and going to bars...
And that just involves professional athletes. I'm sure I could keep digging if I wanted to go with the college game. The top link involved an illegal firearm, which is another can of worms all in itself, that a lot of these players feel it's absolutely necessary to carry guns in these places whether they're allowed to have them or not.
On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote: Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though.
Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled.
So "going out drinking and getting into fights" (how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior?
Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras.
I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
What I do not get is why you started this argument at all. Fine, so you think people should cease doing fun activities that involve some risk when they are being paid. That`s okay, you`re entitled to your opinion. But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it? And besides that, why keep on "debating" it? You expressed your argument, and opinion, no need to reiterate it over and over and over and over.
Go read what I originally wrote, the first significant post I made in the thread, my original detailed explanation, my original declaration that I was done with the thread because people were making the same comments over and over that I had already addressed, which I then had to go back on because of how the thread transpired later. If I hadn't seen that DeMusliM's father had addressed me (which I caught on the very first page because I wanted to see if the official account had changed), I would have kept it that way.
But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it?
So you're not allowed to say typically unoffensive things on message boards if there's a chance it could offend the user base?
None of these quotes mention a single thing about professional athletes not being allowed to go to bars. The only things they mention are athletes getting arrested after getting into bar brawls, which if anything, strengthens the argument against what you said, because demuslim never ended up arrested. Your entire argument has been based around some reasoning that he should be in danger of having his shit revoked for going to a bar, and that going to the bar in the first place was an irresponsible choice. (which if it is, then about every pro athlete is guilty of being irresponsible, and once again your point is completely useless)
I can't offer anything else relevant to this thread that hasn't already been said. So yeah. I talked to DeMusliM about an hour ago. We're good. I stand by most of what I said, but I do apologize for making it such a big deal. So yeah. Thread done for me.
On February 08 2011 12:38 socommaster123 wrote: All this just to talk to DeMusliM! Creepy fan I knew it was all a ploy to talk to your favorite person EVA! Your a sick sick man.
On February 07 2011 11:44 Gentleman7 wrote: If you think DeMuslim was taking unnecessary risks by going to a bar, should no pro-gamers be allowed to drink anymore? That's ridiculous.
I didn't say they couldn't drink. I'm not dissenting because he went to a bar and drank. I said they shouldn't be going to bars if (as people in this thread were amply willing to demonstrate) there is a demonstrable risk in doing so.
On February 07 2011 11:29 nybbas wrote: So basically what his point is, that if you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to bars. Ever. That is realistic.
I should be banned for feeding the trolls *sigh*
Now, if it comes out that somehow demuslim started the fight, or did something otherwise to what the story we have been told is, I can agree. So unless you have some facts we don't, you are nothing but an idiot.
If you are in professional sports, you shouldn't go to places or perform in activities that could harm your ability to play professional sports. Reading the comments in this thread, I've learned bar fighting is a British national sport. Things happened because of it.
I'll save the rest for my rebuttal.
why no bann? its clear by now that he doesnt give a fuck about the story and only watns to annoy the people on this board :/ Sometimes i dont understand the mods here.... to hard on one side and then this
Yes. I just want to annoy the people on this board. Right.
I think the question then is where we draw the line for pro-gamers. Where is the balance between them becoming to great a risk for their team, and having some basic enjoyment?
We just have a very basic disagreement over this; you basically are arguing that going to a bar is too great a risk for someone to take, because you can break your hand there. I would argue the odds of slipping at a bar and breaking your hand are roughly the same as walking outside if it's icy. I don't think either risk is to extreme for a pro-gamer to take. If you do, that's whatever, but I'll think you'll find (and this thread indicates) that most would disagree.
Man repeatedly keeps breaking the law (assault etc) and is repeatedly arrested but continues playing professionally (no mention of any teams punishing him or ending his contract)
Another case of some players assaulting people in a bar and no mention of any kind of censure/punishment from the team.
... I'm going to assume they continue in this manner.
So basically you have linked a bunch of news reports that show that some people are dicks and go out and start fights/break the law. How is this remotely relevant to the arguement?
Demuslim was not arrested and from the sounds of it there is absolutely no grounds for someone to even suggest he should be.
You try to argue that going to a bar is unprofessional and he should be punished by his team, then link a bunch of articles about sportsmen going to bars and not being punished... surely thats counter to your entire arguement, if anything it suggests more sc2 pros should go out and get wasted so people take them seriously as professionals, maybe throw a couple of high drama affairs in there!
he noticed the broken elbow not before coming home because his stimpack was still on..
get well soon ben.. for me you're the most likeable gamer... you could cast some games tho, loved your terran insight every single time you did a cast..
Couldnt agree more ranjutan. I have just got back from Cologne with Ben to get more assist from my doctors here in UK. I understand that Ben has explained personally to a number of people that he wasnt in a bar fight, and that he defended himself from abusive thugs on his way home with friends. All apologies have been accepted, and hopefully we can now ALL put this to bed, and concentrate on his speedy recovery, and whatever else is happening in the community. Im sure that a lot of people are getting bored with this particular topic by now, so lets move on. Regards to all Bens friends from Reg Baker ( Demus father) ps he is looking good.
Just some news: He couldnt participate in the ESL and is replaced by Xlord. The injury seemed to delay his ability to play further than expected. I guess there will be a news in English shortly. Source: http://www.esl.eu/de/news/152739/
EPT
DeMusliM broke his hand and elbow after getting into a small "skirmish" while he was out drinking with fellow player Rotterdam.
[...] 
![[image loading]](http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i7/Fwar/arm.jpg)
hehe, get well soon younger bro
![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/291l5km.jpg)
