EPTWith the position continuing to simplify, the state of the pawn structure, the Knight/Bishop against double bishop (while up a pawn) and the location of the kings, I think this is looking more and more drawish. Barring enormous mistakes on either side, I can't imagine any other outcome. Therefore, I also am casting a vote this turn to Offer Draw.
TL Chess Match 4 - Page 101
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
With the position continuing to simplify, the state of the pawn structure, the Knight/Bishop against double bishop (while up a pawn) and the location of the kings, I think this is looking more and more drawish. Barring enormous mistakes on either side, I can't imagine any other outcome. Therefore, I also am casting a vote this turn to Offer Draw. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
Secondly, let's not overlook this post by our esteemed opponent. On October 20 2011 06:15 Ng5 wrote: He's referring to this post. Of course, he could be trying to mislead us, but I hardly suspect Ng5 of resorting to tactics like that in a game like this. Therefore, from here on, I suggest that we focus our analysis efforts on 17...a5.Haha. Yes. 100th. And I think my next move wouldn't be so extreme to find out because I talked about what would happen after Nxd2 a few pages ago.  | ||
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shackes
Germany148 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 21 2011 14:21 mastergriggy wrote: The main reason I think he's planning that is simply that he more or less says he is. Sure, he doesn't say it explicitly, and he could be trying to fool us into wasting extra effort on a move he won't play, but considering how little he'd gain from that (we'll find out his move soon enough anyway, and we've already put some analysis into his other possibilities too), the fact that this is just a casual, friendly game with nothing on the line, and Ng5's approach to chess in general, I'd be a bit surprised if he's trying to gain an advantage by pretending he's playing something he isn't.I kinda get the feeling that Ng5 might be planning a completely different move than the one in that last post. His moves so far have been far from what everyone has thought was best. Although, JD seemed to have picked up on his pattern and he thought so, so I suppose it's a likely move. Then again, maybe he's just fooling around with words that seem to say something other than what they mean. Either way, a little analysis on 17...a5 shouldn't hurt us: it's a likely enough move, and unlike all the analysis we did on 16...Bb7, which became mostly irrelevant after a piece was traded off, analysis on 17...a5 ought to be at least somewhat applicable to other positions as well. I'll try to post a synthesis of what we have so far, soon. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
Analysis of position after 17. Nxd2 (First installment. I hope to update this soon with more of the analysis that's been done.) After we retake the Knight, Black can play what he likes, as we are not directly threatening anything at the moment. Here is one of his likelier moves. + Show Spoiler [17...a5] + + Show Spoiler [position] + After 16. Re1 Nxd2 17. Nxd2 a5 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gifEw.png) White to play jdseemoreglass, who has proven to be pretty good at guessing Ng5's moves, predicts that he will play this move. Also, Ng5 himself seems to suggest that this is the move he will play (see my post here, and I don't think that he's deliberately trying to mislead us. Also, while all of the moves that we're considering for Black achieve one purpose or another, Black has some particular reasons for wanting to play ...a5 early:
Pros and cons of this move for Black It strengthens his control of the Queenside by
Although it restricts our options somewhat (in particular making b4 unplayable; also making ...a4 a concern) 17...a5 does not directly threaten us, which gives us more flexibility to pursue plans of our own unhindered. (Another way to put this is that the move is more strategic than tactical in nature.) Possible White responses + Show Spoiler [18. b3] + + Show Spoiler [Overview] + b3 is a move that has come up many times by now, mainly as an alternative to the more ambitious, but often problematic, b4. Its main goal is to provide a way for us to safely complete our development by playing Bb2. Temporarily, the pawn on b3 will need to be defended by our Nd2, but as the game progresses, we can consider various plans to relieve the Knight from guard duty, including Re3, Rb1 (combined with moving the Bishop out of the way, e.g. to c3), and perhaps even a later b4.) Other purposes of b3:
One thing to note about b3 that has changed as a result of the last move is that the departure of the Black Ne4 makes b3 rather stronger than it had been previously. With the Knight on e4 threatening ...Nxd2 at any time, we needed to always be sure that Black did not have the opportunity to use ...Nxd2 to remove the defender, following up with Rxb3. Now, this is no longer a factor. + Show Spoiler [Current main line] + jdseemoreglass proposed: 18...Ba6 (Black develops his Bishop to perhaps its strongest location at the moment. The only other place for the Bishop to develop to, currently, is b7, but although it can't be ruled out, ...Bb7 looks like a slightly less attractive move for Black than it had been, now that Nxe4 (which would have opened the a8-h1 diagonal) is no longer on the board.) 19. Bb2 (As mentioned above, the main purpose of b3 is to prepare this move, which finally develops our Bishop and clears the c1 square for a Rook. As developing our Bishop and a1 Rook have been among our biggest issues in this position, and as Black does not appear to have an immediate threat, at first glance there seems little reason not to begin resolving these issues at once [however, see below].) More recently, EvilNalu proposed the following continuation: 19...a4 (putting pressure on b3 and instigating the locking of the Queenside, which is helpful for Black, as will be explained below. Black surely has other possibilities here as well, including the usual suspects ...Rhg8 and ...c5, but not only does this move seem quite strong, but Ng5 himself indicated that this was his plan.) 19...b4 (A mixed bag. On the plus side, it permanently eliminates our worries for the safety of the b-pawn and allows us to turn our attention elsewhere. Furthermore, it permanently prevents ...c5, which had also been a potential worry for us in some lines. On the minus side, it locks up the Queenside, leaving Black the one with more space.) This move brings out a potential disadvantage of playing the Bishop to b2 too early, as bxa4, Rb1, and Re3 are no longer possible responses to a4. 20. b4 protecting our pawn and locking the Queenside. Forced. + Show Spoiler [20.Re3?] + At first glance, this move seems attractive, but it is impossible for tactical reasons: 20...axb3
Here EvilNalu writes On October 20 2011 03:01 EvilNalu wrote: black's two bishops are strong and white's bishop is terrible. However, white is beginning to finally untangle and his bishop may eventually see the light of day along the c1-h6 diagonal. I think this position is close to equal. Position in PGN viewer The disadvantages that EvilNalu points out are real. Furthermore, the locked nature of the position seems to make it hard for us to make progress, despite our extra pawn. For these reasons, I think that if we choose to play 18. b3, we should look hard at alternatives to 19. Bb2. 19. Re3 seems the strongest possibility. 18. Re3 18. Rb1 I feel that both of these moves are more promising than b3, because less committal. Rb1 can support, in various lines, b3, b4, or even leaving the pawn on b2 while the Bishop develops to the right. Re3 develops the Rook to a useful location, where it defends d3 and b3, and can easily move to defend f5 and attack f6. A line for 18. Rb1 to get the ball rolling: PGN viewer. | ||
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Chezus
Netherlands427 Posts
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TehForce
1072 Posts
I would participate in more matches for sure. But i would prefer standard chess and not a variant. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 15 2011 02:20 lightman wrote: Am I missing something? + Show Spoiler +16. Re1 + Show Spoiler + Black can also 16...NxN 17 NxN .. 17 ...a5 18 Re3 Ba6 19 b4! with a promising position to free up our bishop and knight. It looks to me like 19 b4 just gives away a pawn after 19... axb4 20. axb4 Bxb4. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
18. Rb1 or possibly 18. Re3 (though I don't like the line that mastergriggy gives for the latter in this post, as I don't like the idea of giving up the Exchange). I don't like 18. b3 because after looking at the analysis, it seems to me that it's a bit too committal too early, especially if followed up with 19. Bb2. See my above post with the green header for more details on 18. b3 and why I don't love it. Both Rb1 and Re3 strengthen a later b3 without committing to it. I'll also note that we don't have to move our b-pawn at all: we can defend it with a Rook and develop our Bishop in the other direction. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
the Re3 one + Show Spoiler + I'm liking the b3 line a lot, but I think it is even stronger after Rb1. My only concern is if black plays a4 imediately, i.e. 17. Nxd2 a5 18. Rb1 a4 19. b3 axb3 20. Rxb3 Ba6 21. Rbe3 Bd6. Simply put, I am not sure if we have time to play Rb1 before b3. | ||
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timh
Netherlands47 Posts
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EvilNalu
United States91 Posts
The reason why I liked 18.b3 first after 17...a5 is that it is the only way to answer ...a4 with b4. It's not that white needs to be able to do this, but I think it gives white a position with more closed lines, which helps keep the two bishops constrained. After 17.Nxd2 a5 18.Rb1 seems premature. I see black playing 18...Ba6 to threaten Bd3, which pretty much seems to force 19.Re3. Then, 19...c5 seems to get embarrassingly awkward for white: 20.dxc5 Bxc5 21.Re1 Rhe8 22.Nf3 Rxe1+ 23.Nxe1 Bxa3, 20.dxc5 Bxc5 21.Re1 Rhe8 22.Rd1 Bd3 23.Ra1 Bc2 24.Rf1 Bd4, 20.dxc5 Bxc5 21.Rf3 Rhe8 22.g3/h3 Re1+, etc. I don't see any similarly big problems with 18.Re3, however. edit: this is because in mastergriggy's line 18. Re3 a4 we can play 19.b4 right away. Another edit: + Show Spoiler + Sorry, totally botched all the numbers above. Now fixed. Not sure I like 18.Re3 now either after 18...c5. Still working on it, however if you want to avoid 18.b3 it might be time to start looking at knight moves. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
Sorry guys, I've just got home. I'll clean up stuff in the morning, probably and then post my move tomorrow. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 22 2011 05:59 EvilNalu wrote: I think you've basically refuted + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + The reason why I liked 18.b3 first after 17...a5 is that it is the only way to answer ...a4 with b4. It's not that white needs to be able to do this, but I think it gives white a position with more closed lines, which helps keep the two bishops constrained. After 17.Nxd2 a5 18.Rb1 seems premature. I see black playing 18...Ba6 to threaten Bd3, which pretty much seems to force 19.Re3. Then, 19...c5 seems to get embarrassingly awkward for white: 20.dxc5 Bxc5 21.Re1 Rhe8 22.Nf3 Rxe1+ 23.Nxe1 Bxa3, 20.dxc5 Bxc5 21.Re1 Rhe8 22.Rd1 Bd3 23.Ra1 Bc2 24.Rf1 Bd4, 20.dxc5 Bxc5 21.Rf3 Rhe8 22.g3/h3 Re1+, etc. I don't see any similarly big problems with 18.Re3, however. edit: this is because in mastergriggy's line 18. Re3 a4 we can play 19.b4 right away. Another edit: + Show Spoiler + Sorry, totally botched all the numbers above. Now fixed. Not sure I like 18.Re3 now either after 18...c5. Still working on it, however if you want to avoid 18.b3 it might be time to start looking at knight moves. 18. Rb1 21...Rhe8 | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
if he does a5, what is to stop us from doing something like h3? it is a very good move strategically to have made so that we don't get our king checkmated if we plan on having our rooks out | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 23 2011 04:50 Bill Murray wrote: + Show Spoiler + if he does a5, what is to stop us from doing something like h3? it is a very good move strategically to have made so that we don't get our king checkmated if we plan on having our rooks out + Show Spoiler + the fact that it serves no purpose other than "not get king checkmated" isn't good enough? The rooks are miles away from getting "out" anyway. + Show Spoiler + More to the point, the weakness of .. a5 is that the pawn comes under attack after Bd2, so white could effectively trade off b2 pawn for a5 one. One like that I like is http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=746032 17.Nxd2 a5 18.Nf1 Ba6 ( 18...c5 19.dxc5 Bxc5 20.Be3 Bxe3 ( 20...Kc6 21.Re2 Bg4 ( 21...Ba6 22.Rc2 ) 22.f3 ) 21.Nxe3 Rxb2 22.Nxd5 ) 19.Ne3 c6 ( 19...Kc6 20.Nf5 Bd8 21.Re6+ Kb5 22.Bf4 ) 20.Nf5 Bd8 Pardon any obvious mistakes. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 23 2011 04:50 Bill Murray wrote: + Show Spoiler + if he does a5, what is to stop us from doing something like h3? it is a very good move strategically to have made so that we don't get our king checkmated if we plan on having our rooks out + Show Spoiler + The issue with playing h3 is that it accomplishes very little compared to our other moves. What we are trying to do right now is develop our Bishop off of the awful square it's on the let our rooks see the light of day. Once we get all our pieces where we need them, then we can consider moves like this, but if the only reason for playing h3 is to prevents checkmate, why not just move the king to f1? That accomplishes the same thing, but also brings our king closer to the center. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
if you all want to free our bishop why didnt we take his knight with it............... | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
Spent more time than I planned today because I wanted to snap out of being predictable and still bring some thrill into the position if possible. | ||
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