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On May 17 2011 05:45 WeRRa wrote:
imo muta build vs toss are very bad, since all toss tend to go mass sair, mutas are good to harrass, but no good fighting unit.
so better get earlier lurkers and go up for lair tech and try to break him with cracklings and ultras/defilers.
mutas dont come really suprising for any d+ toss and higher, since u just need to see the second gas timing, u will know mutas are coming and if the toss knows this, he ill have 2 canons in the main an archon and at least like 4 sairs already, mutas wont do any dmg and the game is pretty much over.
User was warned for this post
lol...big fail on so many levels
please read the posts above more carefully, or watch the VOD at least before commenting
obviously if Jaedong is doing it nearly every game there is some merit to the build -.-
derp
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dont treat this as a universal bo, if the toss is opening two stargates or sair/reaver then getting mutas is a bad idea (though you should still get +1 carapace, and could still make mutas later in the game.)
Also speedlot rushes attack before your mutas spawn, so you'll either need atleast 3 sunkens+lings in each nat, or get mutas right after spire if you see spinning forge and large gateway count (I'd recommend the latter). Also simcity is really important for the 6hatch bo.
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On May 17 2011 10:18 Assault_1 wrote:
dont treat this as a universal bo, if the toss is opening two stargates or sair/reaver then getting mutas is a bad idea (though you should still get +1 carapace, and could still make mutas later in the game.)
Also speedlot rushes attack before your mutas spawn, so you'll either need atleast 3 sunkens+lings in each nat, or get mutas right after spire if you see spinning forge and large gateway count (I'd recommend the latter). Also simcity is really important for the 6hatch bo.
That's why it is critical in scouting the +1 attack. If your overlord in his base sees a stargate but no +1, then a hydra den should be planted down immediately and you can take your 4th base faster or mass up hydras asap to attack him. But I don't think attacking is wise because it was delayed and you may not attack in time.
Actually, the mutas arrive before the attack. So there really is no need for 3 sunkens at this point. The main priority I see is balancing lings with drones to help in holding off the zealot attacks. Somehow, we haven't really got to see this build manifest fully yet so we only can speculate now. The most important thing would be to note the 3rd and 4th gas timing together with the lurker timing and what will the mutas be used for from mid-late once good corsair count is established and zerg probably has a whole bunch of lurkers hydras and lings.
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Also harder to pull off blindly now with more players taking up Neo-Bisu.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
This write up is so good it gave me shine flashes. Bumping because zergs clearly need help in ZvP.
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On June 13 2013 12:17 BisuDagger wrote:
This write up is so good it gave me shine flashes. Bumping because zergs clearly need help in ZvP.
Don't worry... help is on the way...
*dramatic music*
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On June 13 2013 12:17 BisuDagger wrote:
This write up is so good it gave me shine flashes. Bumping because zergs clearly need help in ZvP.
._. Zergs need help in ZvP? Pretty sure we need more help in ZvT.
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On June 13 2013 12:17 BisuDagger wrote:
This write up is so good it gave me shine flashes. Bumping because zergs clearly need help in ZvP.
Why would it reminds you of Shine ? This is a guide for 5 hatch ZvP. Shine rarely gets more than 3 hatcheries.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On June 13 2013 20:51 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 12:17 BisuDagger wrote:
This write up is so good it gave me shine flashes. Bumping because zergs clearly need help in ZvP. Why would it reminds you of Shine ? This is a guide for 5 hatch ZvP. Shine rarely gets more than 3 hatcheries.
It's that good.
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because shine likes to get mutas when he is slightly behind.
this build is mostly shine/hyvaa style.
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Why would you bump this BisuDagger T_T. We don't need more Zergs learning this.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On June 14 2013 00:13 EchOne wrote:
Why would you bump this BisuDagger T_T. We don't need more Zergs learning this.
I've been smurfing a lot under my iccup name DraW and well I feel like my PvZ's have been such a breeze.
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On June 14 2013 00:13 EchOne wrote:
Why would you bump this BisuDagger T_T. We don't need more Zergs learning this.
He's bumping because he wants to 2 gate mo often 
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This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why?
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On June 14 2013 14:49 blueblimp wrote:
This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why?
The Neo-Bisu build was doing okay against it for a while. But a good old hydra break is always good. Also the overuse of Fighting Spirit during the last few years with its easy 4 bases made this build a bit less relevant. But for example on map where it's harder to secure 4 bases like HBR, this remains a great build (although I believe drop play is probably the best strategy on HBR).
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I think the ease with which protoss can take bases is more important in examining why this build isnt so popular anymore. This is an aggressive zerg build that aims to prevent or kill a 3rd base by protoss, which is harder on a map like FS where its easy to defend your 3rd and natural at the same time.
The build can still work well against 1+ corsair protoss, you just have to include 1+ air armor for your mutas so they can survive longer and kill more templars. However it is more of an all in now with toss assuming air control - before the mutas would allow for zerg to have the option of either ending the game quickly with templar snipes and hydra bust, or just harassing and switching to more economic play, but now that such harass is impossible their only purpose is to kill templars and then let you win with hydras.
Lately ive seen a lot more progamers adopt a strategy of air control first, then hydra switching, in order to make the protoss defensive with his corsairs instead of using them for harassment and having to invest more money into anti air (watch games on chain reaction, jaedong hoejja etc)
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On May 18 2011 09:30 Taekwon wrote:
Also harder to pull off blindly now with more players taking up Neo-Bisu.
So the core idea behind this build is still efficient against neo bisu? (see Arvick Hero's guide here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/194558-pvz-1-sair-speedlot) What tweaks to the BO would help against +1 sair/speedlot? 3 hatch spire into 6 hatch hydra?
On June 14 2013 22:26 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 14:49 blueblimp wrote:
This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why? The Neo-Bisu build was doing okay against it for a while. But a good old hydra break is always good. Also the overuse of Fighting Spirit during the last few years with its easy 4 bases made this build a bit less relevant. But for example on map where it's harder to secure 4 bases like HBR, this remains a great build (although I believe drop play is probably the best strategy on HBR).
So on FS it's best to turtle on 4 bases to hive? Then what? Defliers first?
On June 15 2013 08:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
Lately ive seen a lot more progamers adopt a strategy of air control first, then hydra switching, in order to make the protoss defensive with his corsairs instead of using them for harassment and having to invest more money into anti air (watch games on chain reaction, jaedong hoejja etc)
Air control first with muta or scourge?
I know its 2017 and I apologize for bumping this ancient post but I recently got back into the game after watching the 2017 ASLs / remastered hype. I'm basically one of those noobs who play almost exclusively FS, at least at this point in time.
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On June 13 2013 14:01 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 12:17 BisuDagger wrote:
This write up is so good it gave me shine flashes. Bumping because zergs clearly need help in ZvP. ._. Zergs need help in ZvP? Pretty sure we need more help in ZvT.
For some reason i'm dying way more in ZvP than I am in ZvT.
Can you add more on how to react to 1 base plays? I feel like since none of the pros do those I have no idea how to react.
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well you cant muta switch against a lot of +1 corsair, you first need to kill them with scourge/hydras. In the meantime, you either play 5 hatch hydra then lurker or 6 hatch hydra.
Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 22:26 endy wrote:On June 14 2013 14:49 blueblimp wrote:
This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why? The Neo-Bisu build was doing okay against it for a while. But a good old hydra break is always good. Also the overuse of Fighting Spirit during the last few years with its easy 4 bases made this build a bit less relevant. But for example on map where it's harder to secure 4 bases like HBR, this remains a great build (although I believe drop play is probably the best strategy on HBR). So on FS it's best to turtle on 4 bases to hive? Then what? Defliers first?
a zerg playing 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra in general tries to strike a balance between delaying the protoss 3rd base with enough units and not making too many units early on when protoss stays on 2 base.
since the close 3rd base on FS is really easy to take, maintaining the correct balance in really hard.
as a response, (combined with protoss mostly having lots of corsairs because of neo bisu build) zergs try to play it as defensive as possible in order to get an earlier 6th hatch and if the protoss takes his 3rd, they use the time to get a 4th base with the 7th hatch.
unless you make lots of 5 hatch hydra and try to bust before storm.
apart from that you can play 3 hatch spire into 4 base 6 hatch sunk/spore with another main/nat. this turns into either
8 hatch hydra (trying to get map control with masssssss hydras, forcing engagements in order to burn all his storms while using 350apm Jaedong micro) or 8 hatch lurker/sunken (defending the bridges, going for defiler and taking your 5th/6th base while harassing his bases until you hit 200/200 or get defiler or he lost all army attacking your defence, typical Larva textbook style)
Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 08:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
Lately ive seen a lot more progamers adopt a strategy of air control first, then hydra switching, in order to make the protoss defensive with his corsairs instead of using them for harassment and having to invest more money into anti air (watch games on chain reaction, jaedong hoejja etc) Air control first with muta or scourge?
the build dragon was talking about is most likely 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch muta/scourge with 2 gas, then mostly transitioning into 6 hatch hydra.
this build is rather volatile/tricky (imo) to play as zerg, especially if protoss didnt lose his 1st/2nd corsairs.
you will be defending the first zealot attack with mutas and max 1 sunken, while having enough scourge to deter any corsair attack. this should make the protoss invest more gas into antiair, while you have a small timing to harass with your mutas and getting the 6 hatch hydra going. (you can also stay on 5 hatch and followup with a hydra bust while protoss is busy getting anti air, see Soulkey vs Bisu on Andromeda ASL3 Ro16)
you cannot lose mutas or scourge for free, but it is really easy to do so against corsairs. you mostly try to keep mutas out on the map randomly and try to attack probes/hts when you see corsairs near your base.
a different version is 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch muta/scourge with 3 gas, focusing on getting more mutas and way more scourge in order to outmass the corsairs (while defending with sunken vs ground).
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On June 29 2017 15:59 Bakuryu wrote:well you cant muta switch against a lot of +1 corsair, you first need to kill them with scourge/hydras. In the meantime, you either play 5 hatch hydra then lurker or 6 hatch hydra.
So what is the timing difference between 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra vs 6 hatch hydra? Also, why is 6 hatch hydra okay vs +1 sair/speedlot but too greedy against the 4gate/2archon timing push described in the OP? Does aggression start later or not as much ground aggression as the 2 arhcon timing? And what is the difference in the protoss BO anyways (difference between 2archon timing push vs +1 sair/speedlot)?
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EPT
