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yamato77
11589 Posts
It pains ME to have to walk YOU through this. Mafia are hurt more through the denial of good roles than town are. Town's most powerful asset is INHERENT TO THE GAME, which is their ability to scumhunt. Do you feel like you need to rely on a role to win as town? Do you feel that way as mafia? Think about these questions, and then come back to me with a more definite answer. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
I dont feel like roles are necessary to win for either alignment. Also in my example, its 1 or the other, mafia dont get a choice, they already have their roles. Does janitor affect lynch flips? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:49 yamato77 wrote: Is denying mafia a janitor role, which denies town CRUCIAL information (player's alignments) or getting a cop role, which gives one person in town UNRELIABLE information more important. It pains ME to have to walk YOU through this. Mafia are hurt more through the denial of good roles than town are. Town's most powerful asset is INHERENT TO THE GAME, which is their ability to scumhunt. Do you feel like you need to rely on a role to win as town? Do you feel that way as mafia? Think about these questions, and then come back to me with a more definite answer. Which other roles you feel are mafia centric? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 04 2013 14:54 Oatsmaster wrote: Dumdumdum, I dont feel like roles are necessary to win for either alignment. Also in my example, its 1 or the other, mafia dont get a choice, they already have their roles. Does janitor affect lynch flips? Janitor only works at night, but there will be more flips then than at lynch. Think about this: We, as town, have a consensus town read on 4 players going into the pick phase. TWO of them get in the top five, one at number 2, and one at number 5. If we tell the guy at number two to pick janitor, and he is actually town (meaning town did a good job townhunting), then we either DENY MAFIA THE ROLE, or confirm the first player to pick as mafia. Either way, it's a good outcome for town, and the MOST LIKELY situation is that we simply deny mafia the role and make that player a VT, which is absolutely okay. Rinse, repeat with Vote-rigger for the person in the fifth slot, and deny mafia another powerful role. This is quite town-favored, because while town roles mostly focus on augmenting someone's scumhunting capabilities, mafia roles overtly interfere with town's ability to scumhunt effectively. Mafia roles also tend to be more powerful because of the nature of the game, which is that mafia are vastly outnumbered while having the advantage of being informed and coordinated. This means that town SHOULD be more occupied with denying mafia roles like these and KP roles than getting other roles which only somewhat aid their ability to scumhunt. Capisce? | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
Traditional Mafia Roles (barring traitor roles) Vote Altering Roles KP roles Would be town's priority with the early picks. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
Oats, also, I kind of understand. His stance is "pick a role and have fun", which other people have basically said. I understand this notion, because it does seem to tread into WIFOM-territory with trying to direct things like this, but in all honesty, it's a safe plan that might gain town an advantage where one was not to be had before. The pick order being public exists for a reason, right? Why can't we attempt to use the setup to our advantage instead of just hoping the role distribution favors town? If there are any other semi-legitimate objections to my plan, I would like to hear them. At the very least, consider the pick order as something to ponder over. How can we, as town, use it to our advantage? Can we deny mafia roles, or perhaps ensure that town gets some of the ones they want? It is arguable that the game could well be won or lost by how we pick roles, so don't just blow it off like it's nothing. Seriously consider what it is you want to do in the next two days of play time. I want to hold a pseudo-mayoral election and try to deny mafia some power roles. What do YOU want to do? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
So if we get say 3-4 townies who are supposed to pick say 1-4 in a specific order, is there any really good counterplan from scum other than trying to get scum in those positions? | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
While some town players could be directed, like my plan would have them be, other ones who we aren't telling what to do could just as easily try to deny mafia roles (and claim them as I said), or pick KP/DOC/INFO roles to aid town. If town picks to deny and claims, mafia could pick the BC role and shoot them. Mafia could pick the role thief and steal it. Mafia could pick from other pro-mafia roles that exist in the game. There are plenty of options at mafia's disposal, but denying them SOME of those options can only be good for town, no? No plan here is going to be perfect, but isn't it worth at least TRYING to do something good for town in this pick phase? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
The only concerns I have: 1) There are logistic concerns regarding who the "chosen" even are - I don't think we have time for an "election" or anything, plus there's no guarantee that everyone will even be around to give their opinion. This isn't a normal day phase, we have less than 24 hours. 2) Would it not be more beneficial to have our super townie players pick preservation roles? Denying mafia looks good on paper, but it's like Sherlock said we can't deny them all the mafia-favoring roles. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12973 Posts
1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9389 Posts
On April 04 2013 13:17 Keirathi wrote: Serious question for you, yamato: What if the 1-2 people you have "solid town reads" on by tomorrow when the picking phase starts are #22 and #23 in the draft order? On April 04 2013 13:26 yamato77 wrote: Same question, I presume. We pick tomorrow, which gives us 24 hours to FORMULATE the town reads. We then look at the draft order, and see if we have good town reads on the first 4-5 people in the draft order. Outside of that, we can't control it very much, but if we CAN deny mafia roles through this method, WE SHOULD. if we can't, oh well, but we've at least attempted to gain an advantage. The plan doesn't hurt town if it doesn't work for some reason, it can only help if it does. This plan is relying too much on "gut feel" luck from 24hrs notoriously referenced as "subject to change" and not enough on cold hard fact. Yes, roles such as the janitor have the potential to cause havok to town; Yes, it would be fantastic if an early-draft town was willing to sacrifice themselves as a "VT" by choosing janitor But, to expect - or plan - a "subject to change" town read to do that.. i dunno. Its all risk/reward. A great town player may provide more value with an alternative role playing to their strengths, than sacrificing to be VT to remove a mafia role (which could be used poorly). I stand by my original sentiment: On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote: + Show Spoiler + Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9389 Posts
I somewhat understand the position of Mocsta, which is that he sees the flaw in the plan being that town may fuck up and accidentally give the role to a mafia. This is only so bad as town lets it be, as the alternative to attempting to deny the role is giving it to mafia anyway, which is what you'd be doing if mafia somehow was the consensus town read from this period. Mafia should be trying to "look town" anyway, to some extent, so it's not like the implementation of this plan changes or alters anything that scum would do, or hurts town in any way. Worst case scenario is just as bad as doing nothing, and the best case scenario is quite pro-town. It's a win for even trying.[QUOTE] Yes. You raise a valid point here in retrospect. At the least (and of more value to me) this plans casts doubt in the eligibility of scum to pick key roles as they will remain vanilla due to duplication. The knowledge the op gives is. Scum kp is fixed to 1. If I was scum, priority would be for kp roles. Hence, remaining vanilla is of much worse consequence to scum than town. + Show Spoiler + pre game I was thinking assassin as scum, as you can get free town kills and then if under pressure target a scummy town as red and hopefully get confirmed as town Vote rigging is nice, but doesn't have the same certainty as a scum under heat that can activate admiral ackbar. Overall I think there is too much WiFOM involved in having a solid town read be in the top of the draft to force participation from players. However, I still think this discussion is definitely of merit to continue. I repeat. The consequence of scum staying vanilla due to duplication of role is significantly worse than town. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9389 Posts
On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Can u please extrapolate point 3. I'm not following the logic flow of how your pretext arrives to this outcome. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12973 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12973 Posts
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
I dont really think we should direct blue roles again, it feels gimmicky and weird. This is basically an open themed setup where dudes can fakeclaim and shit right? Isnt that part of the game? Like town should rely on solid analysis to win and thats why we dont bother about this fucking bullshit. Blue roles should not be talked about IMO and it should be pretended that they dont exist. Also again, we dont KNOW who goes first, AFAIK, only if people claim that they are going in whatever position. Again that can be affected by mafia is what ways which I cant be arsed to think of at the time. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
And I sort of agree with denying scum roles, but we should limit it to one or maybe two roles, because if we have strong consensus townies early in the order then giving them actual good roles could be very powerful. Also oats the draft order is public knowledge. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
On April 04 2013 19:33 strongandbig wrote: Afaik pyp games are often determined by "this bullshit". The picking phase strategy is a big part of the game. And I sort of agree with denying scum roles, but we should limit it to one or maybe two roles, because if we have strong consensus townies early in the order then giving them actual good roles could be very powerful. Also oats the draft order is public knowledge. K right. So we could just assign roles to all the people. And if they dont picked the assigned role, we kill them, and if they use their role in a way that benefits scum we kill them. And this will totally break the game as PYP, no? | ||
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Restraining Order
Qatar276 Posts
The rolecop-rolevig combo alone has 2-3 possibilities on either end of the deal. (rolecop, capitalist, extractor & assassin, rolevig) Sure, you might be a hero and get exactly the one they try to pick, but it's a crapshoot, and mafia inherently has the pickorder advantage due to possible coordination. Rather, think about it like this: certain roles are not desireable for mafia to pick. Those roles, you don't pick early in the draft order. This includes all investigative roles (apart from rolecop), dreamflower, things like that. Not picking those in, say, the upper half, will mean more roles for town overall. But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way. | ||
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