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[TSL] Day 1 Disconnect Situation - Page 48

Forum Index > PokerStrategy.com TSL3 Forum
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Tempestsc
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3 Posts
March 22 2011 22:38 GMT
#941
I loved how you guys did a really thorough job of making sure everything stays fair. Especially the contributions by Nazgul.

However there needs to be certain questions regarding the integrity of a judge. Bluntly speaking, the integrity of Cloud. Although he was vetoed off and his decision did not matter, he voted to do a re-game. This contradicts the unanimous decisions of the remaining 4 original judges. Unless he can explain himself and it can be found that it was not favoritism/bias, I believe he does not belong on the panel. The game had an obvious victor and I get the impression Cloud was infringing on his power as judge.
GrapeD
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada679 Posts
March 22 2011 23:40 GMT
#942
Good decision, that simulation in nazgul's quote kinda proves that the game was pretty much over. I think you guy should continue to run simulations like that in cases like this.
Some people hurt people. I defenestrate those people.
Mokaccino
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia4 Posts
March 23 2011 03:29 GMT
#943
Good call, although it is true that a 5 member panel would make the decision seem more justified.

While watching the game, I was actually expecting a gg any second, when I saw the player left game message I thought Nightend raged quit haha, but then I saw Boxer's name and ended up confused...
Viperzero
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia70 Posts
March 24 2011 04:10 GMT
#944
On March 23 2011 07:38 Tempestsc wrote:
However there needs to be certain questions regarding the integrity of a judge. Bluntly speaking, the integrity of Cloud. Although he was vetoed off and his decision did not matter, he voted to do a re-game. This contradicts the unanimous decisions of the remaining 4 original judges. Unless he can explain himself and it can be found that it was not favoritism/bias, I believe he does not belong on the panel. The game had an obvious victor and I get the impression Cloud was infringing on his power as judge.


It was not stated whether he voted for a re-game or not, however it was stated for the purpose of conversation that if he had said such a thing, the following would have happened.

For sake of discussion and transparency we will say that Tyler thought it was over and Cloud thought it was a re-game. To be absolutely clear, we asked the players to veto and they veto'd before Cloud told us his opinion.
Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way.
Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-24 05:07:29
March 24 2011 05:06 GMT
#945
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 07:38 Tempestsc wrote:
However there needs to be certain questions regarding the integrity of a judge. Bluntly speaking, the integrity of Cloud. Although he was vetoed off and his decision did not matter, he voted to do a re-game. This contradicts the unanimous decisions of the remaining 4 original judges. Unless he can explain himself and it can be found that it was not favoritism/bias, I believe he does not belong on the panel. The game had an obvious victor and I get the impression Cloud was infringing on his power as judge.



It was not stated whether he voted for a re-game or not, however it was stated for the purpose of conversation that if he had said such a thing, the following would have happened.

Show nested quote +
For sake of discussion and transparency we will say that Tyler thought it was over and Cloud thought it was a re-game. To be absolutely clear, we asked the players to veto and they veto'd before Cloud told us his opinion.


The way they phrased that was sort of weird but I'm pretty sure because he says "for the sake of transperancy" he means that that is what cloud and Tyler actually voted. That said Tempest I don't think that Cloud is actually on any sort of panel, from what was said I think they convene a new panel for every time this happens based on races and such. So I don't think you need to worry about him biasing anything.
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
Moletrap
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1297 Posts
March 24 2011 07:19 GMT
#946
"This isn't 'nam... there are rules here."

Very informative explanation. I like the way this was handled.
aka Moletrap
Tempestsc
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3 Posts
March 24 2011 14:54 GMT
#947
Ah I see, I see. I guess I have missed that initial statement.
bigDean636
Profile Joined February 2011
United States23 Posts
March 25 2011 07:58 GMT
#948
This decision was obvious. It would be the most amazing comeback in history if Protoss was able to pull that one out. Boxer would have had to make bronze-level mistakes to let that one slip away!

Really cool that you guys posted everything involved in the process, though.
Caltrop
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden34 Posts
March 25 2011 09:30 GMT
#949
I would just like to add that I think this kind of transparency is great for the game (and big events). It gives more insight and trust from the viewers/fanbase.

I would also like to add that I like the panel-type voting. Judging from the answers of the players they have absolutely spent the time needed to make an informed decision, and when you use players of that calibre to begin with they can make the best informed decisions out there.
"Basetrading is a valid strategy for winning... if you have a hidden expo" - my wife
MamiyaOtaru
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1687 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-25 09:49:31
March 25 2011 09:47 GMT
#950
On March 20 2011 21:03 dakalro wrote:
Just to clarify, from the OP

Cloud and Tyler never were asked for their opinions and never gave a decision/explanation, they were not part of the panel.

The situation in the OP is only hypothetical, that is to explain how the decision making works. IT'S A HYPOTHETICAL: HAD CLOUD SAID REGAME AND TYLER WIN.

Read OP carefully before posting shit like "I wanna hear why Cloud thought it should have been a regame". He never said that, he was never asked.

You are wrong. Tyler and Cloud did have opinions, and they are as stated. Tyler thought it was win, Cloud thought it was regame. If the op had said "For sake of discussion let's say that Tyler thought it was over and Cloud thought it was a re-game" you could be right. But it actually said "For sake of discussion and transparency we will say that Tyler thought it was over and Cloud thought it was a re-game". It also says "To be absolutely clear, we asked the players to veto and they veto'd before Cloud told us his opinion."


*edit* fuuuuu many pages later this was cleared up. Leaving this up just in case anyone else still thinks it was a hypothetical statement
Afterstar
Profile Joined November 2010
67 Posts
March 27 2011 08:21 GMT
#951
TL handled the situation with professionalism.Good job guys and I agree with the decision; by the time Protoss would had been able to warp in enough units,he would had already lost his 3rd and stay with almost no income against a gold base Terran.
Don't cry because it's over,smile because it happened.
starcraft911
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)1263 Posts
March 27 2011 10:11 GMT
#952
Situations like this are never easy. My dad owns a drag racing strip and they have a very robust ruleset to prevent drama. Well done and I appreciate you guys taking the time to inform the community rather than just saying something like "we decided.. deal w/ it"
Born)Slippy
Profile Joined October 2002
Norway1904 Posts
March 27 2011 11:43 GMT
#953
Very well done, Team Liquid! Super-transparent, informed and well presented. Can't ask for more. Hat off!!
Putain_De_Putois
Profile Joined March 2011
France9 Posts
March 28 2011 07:21 GMT
#954
I think the way to handle this really is proffesionnal but i think this is not the good decision even if Boxer was 99% sure to take the game.
The one who pays the price is nightend whereas he is not in charge of boxer's deco.
This is the point of a "game" as we have to remember starcraft is one : everyone has to be able to defend his chance, and contrary to his will, assume that nightend wasn't allowed to.
In my opinion regame was definitely the good option to respect both players : in some way we can consider that boxer should even have been given the loss as it was his deco, but im afraid the decision was taken too quickly. 1day reflexion was not so much considering that this tournament could have meant much to nightend.
I do really feel sorry for that unlucky guy who plays pretty well as he took one game to boxer.
But a decision of remaking the game in question is still possible as there is 1week delay before next playday. The point is that admins have to recognize they may not have taken the best decision, but it definitely seems to me that there is no big issue in replaying that game.
But anyway great concerning by the staff.
Sami`
Profile Joined March 2011
89 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-30 05:28:08
March 30 2011 05:15 GMT
#955
I disagree with the decision for two reasons.

1. The panelists made one enormous assumption that their decision seemed to hinge on; there was going to be a battle @ 18:50. We don't know that is the case, Boxer could have turned around.

A huge advantage however is not enough for an "absolute" win. The defining factor of why Terran is going to roll over Nightends army and expansion is because out of the 11 phoenix 9 are at ~30 energy. They are basically 18 supply of units that will take out the vikings and then the medivacs but can't touch the Marauder/Marine/Ghost except for two liftoffs.


If there is no assumption that a battle will take place @ 18:50 then Nazgul's justification falls apart.

Thats shaky ground to decide an absolute win on in my opinion.

2. Having only 3 judges should not have been allowed, I don't know whether TL sought Nightend's approval or whether he offered it but either way it was clearly to his disadvantage and changing judging rules under any circumstances after a tournament has begun just isn't acceptable.

If the rules say 5 judges then there should be 5 judges - it should not be possible to change that.


I love MC's panel report, its short, concise, to the point and states only facts (until his verdict).

Also, damn... Korean is amazing - 324 characters for MC's report in Korean but 815 in English!

How efficient.
springtree
Profile Joined August 2010
74 Posts
April 03 2011 16:01 GMT
#956
Late, but I've been thinking a lot about this one and I've gotta say I can't agree with this judgement. I do like how it was handled, but to be honest, the only fair ruling I can see is

1. Disconnecting player was foreseen as losing the game (thus auto-lost)
2. Disconnecting player was foreseen as winning the game, so a rematch.

In case 1, the detailed analysis by the panelists would be the solid argument that hopefully persuades the DC'er that he had bad luck, but with some thinking he might come to the conclusion that yeah, he would've lost too.

In case 2, bad luck again, but shit happens, you just have to take it like a man/woman/thing and go do that again, without the DC this time. Hopefully.

No amount of "you would have lost anyway" is going to appease a player who has his opponent DC in the middle of a game.
斗 シ ツ ♪ ♡
zpnq
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia4 Posts
April 18 2011 03:22 GMT
#957
On April 04 2011 01:01 springtree wrote:
Late, but I've been thinking a lot about this one and I've gotta say I can't agree with this judgement. I do like how it was handled, but to be honest, the only fair ruling I can see is

1. Disconnecting player was foreseen as losing the game (thus auto-lost)
2. Disconnecting player was foreseen as winning the game, so a rematch.

In case 1, the detailed analysis by the panelists would be the solid argument that hopefully persuades the DC'er that he had bad luck, but with some thinking he might come to the conclusion that yeah, he would've lost too.

In case 2, bad luck again, but shit happens, you just have to take it like a man/woman/thing and go do that again, without the DC this time. Hopefully.

No amount of "you would have lost anyway" is going to appease a player who has his opponent DC in the middle of a game.



I agree.

In both i think there should be an option for the "connected" player as to whether or not there should be a rematch.

In Case 1. Disconnecting player was foreseen as losing the game (thus auto-lost),
the "connected" player should be asked - Are you willing to play a rematch? If yes, then a rematch it is, if no then he takes the win.

In Case 2. 2. Disconnecting player was foreseen as winning the game, so a rematch,
the "connected" player should be asked - Do you want to play a rematch? If yes then a rematch it is , if no, then then win goes to the "disconnected" player.

Weaklink123
Profile Joined April 2011
United States159 Posts
May 12 2011 06:14 GMT
#958
I know this is an old post but I would like to thanks everyone evolved for taking the time to deal with this issue. I can not wait for if these two ever play each other again.
mYinsanityCoach 우정호 (KT Violet) - 1988 - 2012.
freakdmg
Profile Joined May 2011
Romania5 Posts
May 16 2011 16:19 GMT
#959
It is true that BoxeR may had that game, but as u saw the GRAND FINALS ThorZaIN escaped NaNiwa's push on the 4th game. NaNiwa escaped the "block" made by ThorZaIN in the first match on Metalopolis. You never know what will gona happend. The decision was correct indeed and I'm proud of the TL staff but I realy think that NightEnD could find a way to escape. Anyways... good job to the TL staff and GOOD JOB to all the TSL3 players. Congratulations to mouz.ThorZaIN and GG to Dignitas.NaNiwa. !!! GREAT JOB !!!
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