EPTBTW, considering many people don't think close pos on metal are balanced would you consider making a similar change to map like in Shakuras Plateau? It should be possible but I'm not sure if it's good. Just putting it out there for you to consider. Anyway, maps are great. I'm curious as to how will players adjust to maps not in ladder pool. Guessing koreans will be better prepared for GSL maps than the rest (they have more people to practice with).
[TSL] Candidate Map Pool - Page 6
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
BTW, considering many people don't think close pos on metal are balanced would you consider making a similar change to map like in Shakuras Plateau? It should be possible but I'm not sure if it's good. Just putting it out there for you to consider. Anyway, maps are great. I'm curious as to how will players adjust to maps not in ladder pool. Guessing koreans will be better prepared for GSL maps than the rest (they have more people to practice with). | ||
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ChApFoU
France2983 Posts
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On February 10 2011 02:53 mdma-_- wrote: I'd really like to see Iccup maps instead of the GSL ones. I like them a lot more : ( GSL is a lot more legitimate than ICCUP so if it actually comes down to GSL maps vs. ICCUP maps, the GSL maps will win and become the more mainstream ones. It only makes sense for TL to follow suit. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7819 Posts
I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:27 hmunkey wrote: GSL is a lot more legitimate than ICCUP so if it actually comes down to GSL maps vs. ICCUP maps, the GSL maps will win and become the more mainstream ones. It only makes sense for TL to follow suit. Not necessarily. ESL has already begun using our maps which is the major player in the EU scene. So EU will be using iCCup. If NA follows suit (which I'm trying my best to make happen) then the GSL maps will only be significant in Korea. On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote: Won't be watch the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo. I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL Very well said. | ||
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Dan7
Bulgaria23 Posts
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slowzerg
United States62 Posts
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CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:27 hmunkey wrote: GSL is a lot more legitimate than ICCUP so if it actually comes down to GSL maps vs. ICCUP maps, the GSL maps will win and become the more mainstream ones. It only makes sense for TL to follow suit. Well there's no reason they couldn't use both. Sure the GSL is a really well known tournament and they have amazing map makers, but ICCup has really good map makers as well and out of the dozens of maps they've made since beta there's got to be at least one or two that are of a high enough quality to be used in the TSL. Blizzard won't recognize them, GOM won't recognize them, MLG hasn't recognized them yet... It's a damn shame. I've played on most of the ICCup maps and they are very high quality, and more importantly the map makers listen to the community and make balance and gameplay adjustments as needed (look at the revisions Pawn has undergone, it's amazing and more effort than anybody from Blizzard or GOM has put into any of the maps that pros are currently forced to play on). I just want to see some 3 player maps. They were some of my favorites to watch in BW (Outsider, Medusa, Triathalon, nobody can say those maps weren't some of the best EVER from a spectator's point of view), and the best 3 player map for SC2 right now is Testbug. So that why I recommended they look at Pawn and Testbug in my previous post. They are at least worth a look! Furthermore these maps are being used in the ESL, and Plexa himself said that tournament organizers should try their best to stabilize the map pool. Either of these maps would make amazing replacements for Scrap Station. I would just like to see them considered as contenders. After all, what if Tel'Darim or Terminus end up being horribly unbalanced somehow? What if every zerg in the tournament gets eliminated on Metalopolis or Shakuras close position spawns? Anyway I'm done ranting, still stoked for the TSL no matter what maps are used.  | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote: Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo. I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL Super tough to have this idea gain general acceptance in the community. Just a few problems that this brings up: How do you ensure that the new maps are anywhere near balanced and have entertaining games on them? You need professional gamer level testers, which is almost impossible. You're asking progamers, who's time (at least in coaching) is around 50 USD/hour, to take time that could being going into practice and using it to test maps that may/may not be balanced. That's tough; the koreans handle it by having the high level clans also create high level maps that can then be tested and refined inside of the clan. The next problem is that you're asking spectators to essentially learn new maps in order to enjoy the game. One of the things that has been preventing the adoption of esports in the mainstream is the difficulty of following the game at a higher level; adding in understanding new maps makes following the esport even harder. Finally, the risk of failing for teamliquid is that it will hurt the adoption of foreign maps, instead of help the adoption of foreign maps. TSL is one of the biggest tournaments, and if the the maps chosen are poor, it will create backlash which will hurt foreign mapmakers. Specifically regarding the iccup maps, they do look good and I've played on them, but the adoption in tournaments isn't as high as the GSL maps. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:43 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Super tough to have this idea gain general acceptance in the community. Just a few problems that this brings up: How do you ensure that the new maps are anywhere near balanced and have entertaining games on them? You need professional gamer level testers, which is almost impossible. You're asking progamers, who's time (at least in coaching) is around 50 USD/hour, to take time that could being going into practice and using it to test maps that may/may not be balanced. That's tough; the koreans handle it by having the high level clans also create high level maps that can then be tested and refined inside of the clan. Odd. We have hundreds of games by top top top NA and EU players on these maps, many pages of feedback notes, and every time an ESL EU event runs we have even more info..... The next problem is that you're asking spectators to essentially learn new maps in order to enjoy the game. One of the things that has been preventing the adoption of esports in the mainstream is the difficulty of following the game at a higher level; adding in understanding new maps makes following the esport even harder. On the other hand, new maps is what originally drew me to competitve BW (well that and Tasteless). I know if I were to show my mother SCII it's a lot harder to explain the 1,000,000 small things going on then the map. The map is decoration for fans, and for players a way to keep the game fresh. Finally, the risk of failing for teamliquid is that it will hurt the adoption of foreign maps, instead of help the adoption of foreign maps. TSL is one of the biggest tournaments, and if the the maps chosen are poor, it will create backlash which will hurt foreign mapmakers. In the same token, what happens if the GSL maps suck? This is a new game and we are approaching new territory, some mistakes will be made. Fuck we used Sin Chupung Reyong (WORST SCII map ever) in some tournaments before we knew it sucked and received no backlash. Obviously not TSL sized tournaments but still the point stands. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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redeux
United States148 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:50 Wolf wrote: GHOSTCLAW makes the best point here. The GSL maps are much more reliable to use in a tournament since they've been professionally tested and are currently being tested. How is that different then iCCup maps? Are the NA and EU pros not good enough to test these maps? If so then why are these same players allowed in the TSL? | ||
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Frankon
3054 Posts
If not it might be a main reason why the iccup maps arent considered for now. Honesty i would kill for Test Bug to replace Metal or Scap. We saw some really interesting games on it in EU cups. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:52 iCCup.Diamond wrote: How is that different then iCCup maps? Are the NA and EU pros not good enough to test these maps? If so then why are these same players allowed in the TSL? iCCup maps haven't had as much extensive testing. They're great maps when you look at them, and they're made by some of the best mapmakers in the world (if not the best), but then once they're made, they kinda sit in a hub (which here happens to be the custom maps thread) for a while before tournaments just decide to pick them up based on how they look and some random here and there testing of high level gamers. Then they're used in fairly small scale tournaments and become more popular that way (although this is fairly recent). The GSL maps were made by mapmakers that are in a clan with professional gamers testing them constantly. The mapmakers for most of the new GSL maps were Prime members, and the others of course were made by Blizzard (and slightly modified by mapmaking teams). They've just had more extensive testing overall to make sure they were ready for the biggest SC2 league that currently exists. Tested by paid professionals. And now they're being used in a tournament (just ONE tournament), that has more spectators worldwide than any other, and is widely considered the most prestigious. On a side note, I like most iCCup maps more than the Prime-made maps.. I'm just trying to give objective points! | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1775 Posts
Iccup maps are really good, you guys should think about them too  | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:30 Vasoline73 wrote: Won't be watching the tournament without some iccup maps. Not really a big sc2 fan but iccup maps would make it interesting for me imo. I mean, this isn't BW.. we shouldn't have to use the maps Koreans are playing on always. Game is still new, set a new standard TL That's your loss. 13 players from Asia are being invited and I would assume most of are already in GSL code S. Then you have some of the foreigners that are in Code A (ret, huk) that could potentially also be in TSL3, so it simply makes sense to include GSL maps when a lot of the TSL3 players are in GSL. That said it is unfortunate the map pool is final. I strongly believe Testbug is one of, if not the, best map out there. And with the constant iccup tournaments, showmatches and map promotions I think it's safe to say their maps have undergone the same level of balance testing the GSL maps have. | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:48 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Odd. We have hundreds of games by top top top NA and EU players on these maps, many pages of feedback notes, and every time an ESL EU event runs we have even more info..... On the other hand, new maps is what originally drew me to competitve BW (well that and Tasteless). I know if I were to show my mother SCII it's a lot harder to explain the 1,000,000 small things going on then the map. The map is decoration for fans, and for players a way to keep the game fresh. In the same token, what happens if the GSL maps suck? This is a new game and we are approaching new territory, some mistakes will be made. Fuck we used Sin Chupung Reyong (WORST SCII map ever) in some tournaments before we knew it sucked and received no backlash. Obviously not TSL sized tournaments but still the point stands. I guess i'm not arguing that the iccup maps shouldn't be used, it's that the GSL maps are an easier call to make and defend. The Iccup maps are great, and tested in weekly casted matches that aren't as well covered as the GSL. With that in mind, the size of the TSL, and the type of exposure it receives in korea (TSL 1 and TSL 2 were good, therefore TSL 3 will probably receive exposure on fomos and other forums as well), reinforces the argument about backlash and having GSL maps included. This time around, it's a worldwide pool that includes koreans, and many other people around the world. In addition "what happens if the gsl maps suck?" - the answer is that it goes back to GomTV. Also, this is a preliminary map list, but the point still stands, the TSL won't need to worry about it as much as if they used iccup maps. (Again, the argument is about why GSL maps are easier to defend as a choice if you're going to pick four new maps). Finally, the players will need to learn the GSL maps anyway (as they will be used next season), whereas it is unclear if the iccup maps will be used in a tournament as large as the GSL. I understand that for the iccup maps to be used in larger tournaments, the maps should be used in the TSL as a stepping stone to acceptance into korean tournaments. I suppose that the teamliquid staff running TSL disagrees (I haven't done anything at all for TSL as far as I know), for all the reasons that I've mentioned. As for the spectators and the maps, I strongly disagree on a personal level - I got into starcraft:bw because my friends played and followed progaming; when i started playing on the newer maps it was quite difficult to understand all the nuances of the new maps, and how they affected gameplay (6/5/4 fact push TvP to punish various third timings, dt/sair vs reaver/sair, etc.) This leads me to believe that understanding the maps is going to mean different things to different spectators, and the more widely known the maps are, the more people will feel that they get out of watching the TSL. | ||
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grnat
Australia60 Posts
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