800 feels a bit more jittery to me on low resolutions
Is that an engine/setting problem, a sensor issue or something else?
Some sensors perform differently on different DPI's. Some FPS engines also have a sensitivity multiplier that works weirdly - when i played Tribes Ascend, setting any sensitivity value below 5 (which was "1.0") would make your movement act weirdly and inconsistent. As a result you had no choice but to set a low DPI for low sens cm/180 values
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My g303 wobble has gotten a bit worse, i recorded a video now
That's holding the mouse as completely steady as possible then clicking with a moderate amount of force. Whenever you stop a movement or click, the cursor wobbles a little like it does here at 0:04+. I recommend viewing on youtube with big player (approx 1280x720, same res as the video) so that you can see it properly
I noticed it on CS:GO (it's the only FPS for which I used 400 dpi). It's hard to explain, it's a very minor thing, but it feels like at 400 dpi the crosshair was a bit more "steady", and would move more smoothly, and at 800 dpi, while not skipping pixels or anything, it was more sensitive to small movements and changes in angle. It happened both on my CM spawn, zowie FK1, G303 and zowie EC2-A, so it should definitely be tied to the engine. Now I could also have been tripping balls and gotten placebo'd, but it definitely felt real haha
With a sens of ~50.8cm for a 360 degree turn (20 inches) then on the X axis, you get 8000 possibly selectable points with 400dpi and 16,000 possible selectable points with 800dpi if no data is lost.
The decreasing amount of resolution might be enough to be a little relevant at low DPI's. I can move the cursor single pixels consistently at about 800dpi, while at 400dpi i can easily move amounts that are too small to trigger 1 count from the sensor.
By about 1200dpi that stops being as relevant for me, so this logic doesn't carry over to using 10'000dpi instead of 2500dpi.
On March 04 2016 23:40 Nimix wrote: I noticed it on CS:GO (it's the only FPS for which I used 400 dpi). It's hard to explain, it's a very minor thing, but it feels like at 400 dpi the crosshair was a bit more "steady", and would move more smoothly, and at 800 dpi, while not skipping pixels or anything, it was more sensitive to small movements and changes in angle. It happened both on my CM spawn, zowie FK1, G303 and zowie EC2-A, so it should definitely be tied to the engine. Now I could also have been tripping balls and gotten placebo'd, but it definitely felt real haha
By the way, your Spawn is still going strong and it's just an excellent mouse. I fucking love it! I use the 800 DPI setting all the time.
My g303 wobble has gotten a bit worse, i recorded a video now
[...]
What do you think might be causing this? Do you think it's that mechanical problem, the lens rattle thing?
I'd guess it's not mechanical, instead is related to the way the sensor stops tracking immediately when you lift the G303. Perhaps they were too aggressive doing whatever calibrating they did when developing the sensor, and this gets dangerous with age of the mouse. When you click, there's perhaps some tiny bit of downwards movement involved when on a soft mouse-pad, and the sensor doesn't overlook that because it's at the edge of where it would like to stop tracking.
I'm still using my G302 right now, still trying to see if that oiling of the switches to fix double-clicking stops working after a while (the oiled buttons still work great). I'll go back to the G303 soon and I'll try to look out for suspicious cursor jitter problems there.
What do you think might be causing this? Do you think it's that mechanical problem, the lens rattle thing?
I think it might be that same thing. The kind of wobbly bounce movement happens when you jerk the mouse to the side and suddenly stop, too. It's also proportional to DPI - if i triple my sens, the issue is 3x as bad.
I'd guess it's not mechanical, instead is related to the way the sensor stops tracking immediately when you lift the G303.
That's just ultra-low LOD, it bothers me a bit and causes some other issues. I think LOD should always be set to a medium level if you're not providing a setting for it. It doesn't have to be super high, my deathadder 3.5g had about 5x the LOD of g303. 2x, maybe 3x this would be nice - right now, my g303 loses tracking without leaving the pad very occasionally and it doesn't track at all at 1cd, which is obviously annoying
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@incog that game does not allow scaling so it's a bit awkward to get to an appropriate sens; too small for my fullscreen 1080p sens. I'm at 1000dpi atm
some fullscreen 1920x1080 that i was playing right before i read thread + Show Spoiler +
On March 05 2016 00:05 Incognoto wrote: By the way, your Spawn is still going strong and it's just an excellent mouse. I fucking love it! I use the 800 DPI setting all the time.
I'm glad it does, I loved it too and it's cool to know you're taking care of it haha. I kind of miss it when playing RTS and MOBAs, but I definitely prefer the EC2-A for FPS play.
The G303 wiggle-when-clicking thing is weird as hell, how can such little force trigger that big a movement?
On March 05 2016 00:05 Incognoto wrote: By the way, your Spawn is still going strong and it's just an excellent mouse. I fucking love it! I use the 800 DPI setting all the time.
I'm glad it does, I loved it too and it's cool to know you're taking care of it haha. I kind of miss it when playing RTS and MOBAs, but I definitely prefer the EC2-A for FPS play.
The G303 wiggle-when-clicking thing is weird as hell, how can such little force trigger that big a movement?
It's a heavier click than i'd usually do - holding the mouse down and level to make sure that the shell isn't moving then clicking quite solidly.
5 pixels at 1000dpi is a very small movement - it's 1/200'th of an inch. 1.27% of a centimeter. It only takes a tiny nudge for that kind of tracking - i was concerned about it being just user error until it got worse.
Edit: I did a slightly different test at high DPI (as the effect is magnified there) - this time with paint open, so it draws when i click. Microphone on & some super super soft clicks, most clicks harder than i'd usually do and some very hard to see how bad it would go. The jumpy pattern is often repeated (flying to the side then back, sometimes a similar Y axis motion as well); the whole wobble seems to take about 0.04 seconds
I'm in the market for a new mouse. I use a palm grip and have medium size hands. Really only play SC2. I really like the look of the EC1-a but I'm wary of what people say about the buttons not being great for a spammy fast clicking game like SC2. I currently have a DeathAdder(which I really like) but it is a pretty old one from like 2012. I don't like the look of the G502 but I'm willing to look past that if the feel is right.
I guess my decision is between a new DeathAdder, G502 and the Zowie EC1-a. I'm leaning towards the DA but just wanted some more input about the click force of the Zowie for an RTS as well as if the G502 isn't as "busy" as it looks.
Ended up with a new DeathAdder. I tried out the G502 and it just doesn't feel nice in my hand. Too small I believe. I loved my last one and since this sensor is better I think I made a good choice.
Edit- I do have a question about polling rates specifically 500hz vs 1000hz. Back in the day when people started changing this 500 was optimal because of hardware limitations and overall feel with 1000 was jittery. Has this changed? I have pretty new PC hardware and was wondering whether making the switch is a good idea.
1000 is the best option if it works well with the hardware and your PC is not ancient. It works 100% fine with g303 and g502, i'm not sure about new deathadder but you can check it in some software if the polling rate is solid during movement or not. It should be fine. Most mice are, but not all.
500hz vs 1000hz does not matter much if you're on a 60hz monitor, but it matters a lot more if you're on 144hz.
500/60 = 8.33 mouse polls per refresh. You get 9 polls of motion instead of 8 every third refresh which isn't perfect but is a pretty small error and not really noticable on 60hz where the motion isn't great anyway.
1000/60 = 16.67 mouse polls per refresh. You'll see the data from polls in this pattern: 16 polls per frame, 17, 17, 16, 17, 17.
Same thing as 500/60hz, less noticable because 1 poll error is half as much on 1000hz as it is on 500hz.
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500/144 = 3.47 mouse polls per refresh. You basically get a cursor/aim that moves 3 mouse polls one frame, 4 polls the next frame, 3 polls the one after, 4 polls the one after and not smooth motion. This is the "bad" setting with mouse polling rates that everyone should generally avoid and is particularly bad because some mice offer only 125/500/1000hz with the 1000hz not being properly stable (as you've said) and having a mouse poll less often than your screen refreshes (125hz mouse poll) being a way worse option
1000/144 = 6.94 mouse polls per refresh. Very close to a whole number, so you'll get 7 polls of motion for 17 refreshes in a row and then drop a poll every 18'th refresh. Since it's at 1000hz, one poll is half as much movement data as at 500hz. Pretty much the ideal setting - it's not "100% perfect" but the error is small, infrequent and invisible outside of very specific circumstances
On March 18 2016 07:18 Cyro wrote: 1000 is the best option if it works well with the hardware and your PC is not ancient. It works 100% fine with g303 and g502, i'm not sure about new deathadder but you can check it in some software if the polling rate is solid during movement or not. It should be fine. Most mice are, but not all.
500hz vs 1000hz does not matter much if you're on a 60hz monitor, but it matters a lot more if you're on 144hz.
500/60 = 8.33 mouse polls per refresh. You get 9 polls of motion instead of 8 every third refresh which isn't perfect but is a pretty small error and not really noticable on 60hz where the motion isn't great anyway.
1000/60 = 16.67 mouse polls per refresh. You'll see the data from polls in this pattern: 16 polls per frame, 17, 17, 16, 17, 17.
Same thing as 500/60hz, less noticable because 1 poll error is half as much on 1000hz as it is on 500hz.
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500/144 = 3.47 mouse polls per refresh. You basically get a cursor/aim that moves 3 mouse polls one frame, 4 polls the next frame, 3 polls the one after, 4 polls the one after and not smooth motion. This is the "bad" setting with mouse polling rates that everyone should generally avoid and is particularly bad because some mice offer only 125/500/1000hz with the 1000hz not being properly stable (as you've said) and having a mouse poll less often than your screen refreshes (125hz mouse poll) being a way worse option
1000/144 = 6.94 mouse polls per refresh. Very close to a whole number, so you'll get 7 polls of motion for 17 refreshes in a row and then drop a poll every 18'th refresh. Since it's at 1000hz, one poll is half as much movement data as at 500hz. Pretty much the ideal setting - it's not "100% perfect" but the error is small, infrequent and invisible outside of very specific circumstances
Great info thanks man. I'm actually really liking this newer DeathAdder @1000hz. I can tell the sensor is a little bit better than my last one and the 1000hz does feel pretty smooth. I'm not currently on a 144hz monitor, but that's a purchase I plan to make relatively soon.
I'm just in love with this general shape I think. I was nearing a professional level of play at Unreal Tournament 2004 back in the day and have basically used the Microsoft IE 3.0 since it was re-released though I had a pretty long stint with the MX510 and MX518. I saw some people dissing the re-release version and that it only had 450 dpi or something max but the one I had definitely went up to 800.
I'm beginning to think my grip is quite a bit different than a conventional palm grip and probably not very representative of any of the more common ones but probably closer to a complete "fingertip" grip than anything else. The furthest away point of my palm does touch the back of the mouse some but not too much, and I mainly control the mouse with my thumb and pinky/ring finger which is a big reason I like the rubberized texture at those locations on the DeathAdder. I really like the grippiness of it. My finger placement is more palm like and my fingers are very horizontal but only the tips are touching the mouse yet I dislike the "claw" finger shape because I read quite a bit a long time ago about how that may be harmful.
But in general I think I classify it as a palm grip because of how much length I prefer and need on the mouse.
I find it amusing that you say the 502 was too small for you - the 402, which is a significantly lighter shell was too big and heavy for me to control with fingertip which looks a lot like that picture.
On March 18 2016 10:28 Grizvok wrote: Yeah I'm definitely a palm-fingertip type hybrid grip. My fingers are much more forward on the mouse than that.
..claw?
Haha no as I said earlier my fingers are fairly horizontal, but that doesn't mean you still can't have just the first pad of your finger on the mouse. I don't think mouse grips can be quantified with such a small list to be honest in fact I would say most people use more or less a hybrid grip.
Regardless, it's all preference though coming from an FPS background I do think there are some huge changes I made with how I operate my mouse between genres that I think are generally good practices. For FPS I actually rest the vast majority of my forearm on the mouse pad which increases overall friction by a large margin which I think helped my aim in such a fast-paced FPS such as Unreal Tournament (obviously I use a humongous mouse pad). I sort of adopted this method years ago after seeing pictures of GitzZz (I'm willing to call GitzZz the best FPS player of all time) playing Unreal and noticed he was one of the only players out there that did this. It's also just better for your wrist. The weight of your arm is distributed over much more surface area than if you play with just the wrist on the desk. I adapted this to SC2 as well by putting some forearm (though not nearly as much because I think a bit less friction is better) on the mouse surface.
This is pEcul!Ar btw (don't remember my login and cba to get it fixed so I'm using a new one connected with steam, way easier)
Was waiting for the Zowie update, but then with the recall and just thinking about other options, I got myself the g303 with a lot of fear for the sensor rattle, but so far so good, no rattle WHATSOEVER, either the rattle still has to come or I'm just a very lucky guy.
The sensor itself feels wayyy better than the one my Zowie EC2-A uses, the shape feels natural to me even though I always adjust my grip to the mouse so I'm not heavily palm gripping anymore to the extreme, I'm just switching between finger- and palmgrip now on the fly, could even argue I'm using claw and I'm completely fine with it, versatile bastard I am.
Definitely prefer the g303 over the Zowie EC2-A in every way, texture, placement of the sidebutton, the weight, sensor etc.. Looking at the games I play nowadays (used to hardcore SCBW and sc2 among others) being cod2 still, csgo and reflex among other more casual games, I can say it's definitely a keeper for any genre, including rts I imagine, played a couple of games of bw and it felt better than the EC2-A right off the bat.
Logitech did a great job if it weren't for the notorious sensor rattle being present in like what? 99% of all the g303's? Shame. Can't imagine mine not getting it sooner or later to be really honest.
Looks pretty good for a wireless mouse but it's still wireless with traditional wireless drawbacks - most notably it means the weight distribution of the mouse is affected and the weight is higher. It's 107g.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1MI6s68.jpg)
