I know there's already been quite a lot of discussion on this subject before, and that Colossus attack animation has already been changed once but when I saw Blizzcon videos I must say that I was utterely disappointed with how this has been solved.
While the old animation produced too many beams which was rather confusing the new one with this single beam drawing the same line over everything is so crappy that it's hard to watch it.
I was wondering if the Blizzard changed this once, maybe they could do it again?
Personally I'd like for it to be less 'War of the Worlds' style and more Protoss style.
I mean a psionic explosion that would deal AoE damage, a bit like the old scarabs and siege tanks. The animation could be similar to the one for Avenger unit in Armies of Exigo.
It would in my opinion create less confusion and would look 10x better/be more distinctive.
Or even just blue lightning, or a combo of those, blue lightning -> explosion.
The general idea is for the attack animation not to last as long as it is now while also looking much better.
What do you think?
Edit:
I forgot not everyone played AoX The attack animation I'm referring to are those 2 bright circular thingies on the ground in the picture.
It can also be seen in this movie at 3:42. The Avengers are the ones with tentacles on their heads(?) dodging the troll shots.
I think that instead of having a single beam like it is now they could make it a dual beam scissoring the area while at the same time the beams lose in visual intensity over the animation so that it looks more like a charge release.
Changing the animation would mean going away from the line shaped attack. And that could change the role of the unit. That Blizzard seems to switch the Collossus attack for every build tells me that they are still playing around with different ideas. Personally I think the important thing is that the graphics should fit what is actually happening.
I'm glad you made this topic because I was thinking about this but didn't know where to post it to get some visibility.
How about a firing animation like a shockwave, a boom? Imagine the expanding shockwave created by an explosion or the ripples of a pebble in a pond, but use that animation only for the sector the colossus is facing (probably less than a quarter of a circle or so). So you get an arc that leaves the colossus' head and becomes bigger as it descends and moves forward, finally hitting the ground with the same line-AOE it has now (if you really want to keep the line shaped attack). The shock wave can travel very fast - yet maybe just slow enough for a line of zerglings or frenzied zeals to dodge it by dancing right after the wave is fired.
The "boom" can be caused by the two structures on either side of the collosus simultaneously closing very violently. The structures then slowly opening and "charging" would provide a nice, clear visual indication of the cooldown.
Imagine this with a loud BOOM and the shockwave traveling fast, with an explosive animation. I don't know how to create gifs; this is supposed to be the same wave at different times, not succesive waves.
The attack looks fine they just need to fix its pathing so it actually does something to units and doesn't fly off to the side of the group and hit nothing.
The attack now just looks lame. I loved the old one, and the fact that it used both its lances instead of just one like now. A different AoE attack would probably be best. Either a zigzagging move with both beams, or a single concentrated impact with AoE similar to that of a siege tank.
On November 22 2008 21:12 Doctorasul wrote: I'm glad you made this topic because I was thinking about this but didn't know where to post it to get some visibility.
How about a firing animation like a shockwave, a boom? Imagine the expanding shockwave created by an explosion or the ripples of a pebble in a pond, but use that animation only for the sector the colossus is facing (probably less than a quarter of a circle or so). So you get an arc that leaves the colossus' head and becomes bigger as it descends and moves forward, finally hitting the ground with the same line-AOE it has now (if you really want to keep the line shaped attack). The shock wave can travel very fast - yet maybe just slow enough for a line of zerglings or frenzied zeals to dodge it by dancing right after the wave is fired.
The "boom" can be caused by the two structures on either side of the collosus simultaneously closing very violently. The structures then slowly opening and "charging" would provide a nice, clear visual indication of the cooldown.
Imagine this with a loud BOOM and the shockwave traveling fast, with an explosive animation. I don't know how to create gifs; this is supposed to be the same wave at different times, not succesive waves.
Hmm... Any good animators here? What if you changed this a bit for the wave to have fade-over time effect and where it goes it produces the 'hot air' effect like from the explosions in SC.
Would look wicked powerful
@ Tritanis: Tomorrow I'll go back to my parent's place where I've left my AoX copy and sure I'd love to skirmish some Or maybe I'll just buy a new copy since it's cheap as hell now.
The original beam looked awesome but I think there was a problem with its cooldown where you could attack/move/attack move spam and shoot really fast. The color of the beam being blue might be cool but that's the same as the warp/void ray. Maybe if they made the damage start lower and scale up like the warp ray that would balance this type of micro. Then they could like implement some kind of a pro technique for full micro attention making them better than just auto firing ones.
Personally, I think the attack looks pretty good as is, and a horizontal sweep is pretty helpful in worker raids and with bunched up marines, especially if you can target a specific part on the ground.
If the beam damages friendly units, though, then I see a problem.
- line splash damage very similar to current laser beam - explosions should be very fast and clean - colossus should have animation marking beginning of attack (recoil for example), so it's clear for player that bombs were thrown - bombs should be clear but not overly expressive (much less than in gif)
I kinda like it. Could you change it though so we could see how it would look without the bomb animation and instead some 'splosion type thingie on the model (something to indicate it's firing) and leave the explosions the same (just like they would appear out of thin air)?
Wow, that looks like you spent a lot of time on it!
It's definitely better than the lots-of-mini-rays animation, if only because bombs can be dodged and that means more micro to be done, but I'm still hoping for something that's as far away from multiple almost parallel tiny mini-anythings as possible. As with the many-rays, I keep getting the feeling that units between 2 bombs/rays should receive less damage than those with one landing right on their head and I think it doesn't look destructive enough, it looks more like a lot of smoke with no fire.
That said, I'm jealous of your animation skills. What programs did you use, how much time did it take you and how much experience do you have with this kind of thing?
Edit: Tomorrow I'll start working on Manitou's version of the wave ("What if you changed this a bit for the wave to have fade-over time effect and where it goes it produces the 'hot air' effect like from the explosions in SC.") but I'm a complete noob at this so any help is appreciated!
Yeah, the beams sweep one at a time and it looks really, really weak.
Alright, here's almost an hour's work.
It's just a primer of the animation and I figured this frame looks cooler than the other one. I'd love for the wave to leave trails like InRaged's bombs and maybe fade out completely about half way through to the ground, the only traces of it before the explosion being the "hot air effect" Manitou suggested (no explosion at all could work as well, just lots of units dieing at once). I have no idea how to start doing any of those things, so I'm hoping some of you animation gurus can chip in with some tips (or some really hard work ).
As you can see the the Colossus fires four lanses that form a circle. The whole circle moves depending where the primary target moves and fires continuosly until the primary target is killed, any units surrounding the primary target within the AOE of the circle also take damage. The colossus re-fires only when the primary target is killed or when the player gives a different command, for example giving order to attack other target or when giving a move command!
Four lances that form a circle? I guess geometry wasn't your best feat in school Besides, continuous attack is bad. It has already been changed to be faster but most of the ideas in this thread go towards making it even faster (the animation that is).
Beside, toss has way too many lances/beams/rays for now and not enough explosions imo.
On November 26 2008 21:58 Manit0u wrote: Four lances that form a circle? I guess geometry wasn't your best feat in school Besides, continuous attack is bad. It has already been changed to be faster but most of the ideas in this thread go towards making it even faster (the animation that is).
Beside, toss has way too many lances/beams/rays for now and not enough explosions imo.
If you are looking at SC as realistic, then there is something very very wrong in the world. 4 lenses will fire forming a circle towards the end, only the circle sides would be seen, there won't be any color in the center if i may say it like that.
On November 26 2008 08:17 InRaged wrote: boobooboobooBOOM
In game implementation:
- line splash damage very similar to current laser beam - explosions should be very fast and clean - colossus should have animation marking beginning of attack (recoil for example), so it's clear for player that bombs were thrown - bombs should be clear but not overly expressive (much less than in gif)
I think bombs fit colossus' insectish look very well. Imagine this huge, scary mechanical... mantis looks down at you, and then suddenly all this tiny stuff ready to explode flies right on you. Very powerful image.
Gameplay-wise it could be made so bombs are pretty powerful, but stay on the ground for a second or even more before exploding, just to emphasis that they can and should be dodged and if not, would be damn devastating. And instead of current range upgrade (doesn't make sense anyway with this kind of weapon) give them upgradeable ability 'force attack' that will give player ability to force colossus to throw another row of bombs ignoring current cooldown, for the cost of increased cooldown after next attack, so at workers raid with proper micro one upgraded colossus will be worth of two not-upgraded, since it alone now could cover whole mineral line in no time, leaving less chance to run away. In battle this ability would be somewhat similar to the old phoenix' overcharge, that got scrapped for some reason.
On November 26 2008 08:27 Manit0u wrote: I kinda like it. Could you change it though so we could see how it would look without the bomb animation and instead some 'splosion type thingie on the model (something to indicate it's firing) and leave the explosions the same (just like they would appear out of thin air)?
You mean like this?
It could be made more 'aggressive' rather than 'scared', but I hope you get an idea :3 There's definitely enough room to make colossus less blatant and much more unique and badass, and lasers here are just not the good choice. Hell knows why blizz stuck on it ;p
Doctorasul, you are way overestimating complexity of these gifs and my skills (: They're pretty straightforward and doing them rather tedious than hard. As for soft, I use ImageReady, but only cause it just like photoshop and I don't wanna bother learning anything else for the sake of couple gifs, gotta be much more organized and careful than usual though - things here turn into complete mess very fast ;P
Actually I kind of like that circle attack idea too. Something like the attack animation burning a circle into the enemy unit with lasers before disappearing or holding a constant circle over them (continually outlining the circle with its lasers) until target is destroyed or changed.
On November 28 2008 10:13 InRaged wrote: Gameplay-wise it could be made so bombs are pretty powerful, but stay on the ground for a second or even more before exploding, just to emphasis that they can and should be dodged and if not, would be damn devastating. And instead of current range upgrade (doesn't make sense anyway with this kind of weapon) give them upgradeable ability 'force attack' that will give player ability to force colossus to throw another row of bombs ignoring current cooldown, for the cost of increased cooldown after next attack, so at workers raid with proper micro one upgraded colossus will be worth of two not-upgraded, since it alone now could cover whole mineral line in no time, leaving less chance to run away. In battle this ability would be somewhat similar to the old phoenix' overcharge, that got scrapped for some reason.
*snip*
I like the increased cooldown thingy, but it'd also have to imobilise the colossus as well, otherwise you could just shoot then run away, so you'd have to be selective about when you used it.
InRaged you have singlehandedly changed my mind about the Colossus with those gifs. I came in here perfectly content with their laser attack, but those bomb gifs (particularly the second one you posted) make the unit so much better in many ways.
The cool thing about it, is if Blizzard wanted to they could impliment that animation without even changing the damage mechanics it currently uses (the bomb attack could do similar damage in a similar way as the laser attack). Additionally, it really makes the unit so unique. The initial colossus + laser design is quite similar to a number of sci-fi creations, but the only thing really similar to the bomb-style is actually the reaver which makes it a perfect lore-companion and incredibly unique unit. And on top of that, if they wanted to mess around with it, they'd have a lot of cool and interesting new mechanic options, some of which were already laid out: delayed explosions, spread out or targeted bombs vs always same pattern, quick fire bombs, etc.
I can't believe I never thought about that sooner. Bombs make so much more sense... they make it seem like a natural evolution the Reaver unit, make it a very unique design, and even make the current laser-using mobs (there is an air and a ground one if I'm not mistaken) more unique as a result. I so rarely argue against Blizzard's design choices, but this is one style that I really hope they get in the game.
Looking very cool but feels possibly imba. And if nerfed too much, there will be a lacking feeling. But still, thumbs up.
Suggestions to play with: Bombs may be just a ball of psi energy built up by the lasers. Maybe a second cooldown after bombs' appearance. Maybe allow Colossus to drop bombs in multiple directions.
I liked the lasers to some extent. However in watching that battle report that blizzard just posted, there was one fight which involved colossi and hellions in addition to a bunch of other units on both sides. We were a good 10 seconds into the fight before I even realized there were zealots engaged. They were completely hidden by colossus lasers and hellion flames.
Blizzard needs to keep colossus in over the reaver because they want to show off the cool unit and this new physics, ie. new IK technology. Basically it's just the legs animation of the colossus stepping up and down terrains. I mean I don't mind the colossus but its current implementation is just kind of forced. I'm sure they are great support units but what's the point of being able to climb up and down cliffs if you can't do harass? They need to be able to 1 shot drones if they stick with its current implementation, I mean the laser misses all the time if you aren't at the perfect angle. I can't call these colossus "powerful" as blizzard loves to call them. They were pretty worthless for all the times protoss used them in the battle report, far from cost efficient(especially the time when it had free shots at scvs).
From a recent update on Starcraft2.com, the colossus animation isn't very distracting at all. It dissapears very quickly and is pretty subtle for a laser beam.
I was playing world in conflict the other day and got an idea for an improvement to the colossus attack, regardless of animation. Personally the horizontal beam didn't mean much to me, it was more the lack of control. In world in conflict, you had special artillery which was called by clicking a starting location then dragging out the beam. What if you could apply this concept to the colossus? maybe keep a horizontal beam as the standard attack but you have the ability to control the beam in that way, direct it over the battlefield in front of you.
I feel like what blizzard is aiming for with the colossus is kind of like a lurker unit, except it does a line of damage parallel to the target rather than towards the target. this means it should attack a line of units head on rather than from the side, meaning its ideal position in a battle would be behind a line of zealots rather than say, trying to flank from the side as one should do with lurkers.
a lot of the ideas in this section seem too focused on the looks and not realizing you are taking out a lot of the micro dynamics away from both side playing.
I feel like what blizzard is aiming for with the colossus is kind of like a lurker unit, except it does a line of damage parallel to the target rather than towards the target. this means it should attack a line of units head on rather than from the side, meaning its ideal position in a battle would be behind a line of zealots rather than say, trying to flank from the side as one should do with lurkers.
a lot of the ideas in this section seem too focused on the looks and not realizing you are taking out a lot of the micro dynamics away from both side playing.
I think the idea of microing parallel lines and moving beams just to get 3 random hits on a whole worker line is part of the problem, so I'd say changing the looks to some psi/laser-splosion that has some aoe to it is part of the solution. Honestly, you put both reavers and collossi in shuttles, they're both slow, one can walk up cliffs but takes air dmg as a result, the other doesn't, one does some weak ass laser that can only kill a lot of workers if they're all in a line and he gets 2-3 beams off, the other needs only an instant out of the shuttle to kill every worker caught in a big radius (and from further away). Which would you prefer?
On November 23 2008 02:34 sushiman wrote: The attack now just looks lame. I loved the old one, and the fact that it used both its lances instead of just one like now. A different AoE attack would probably be best. Either a zigzagging move with both beams, or a single concentrated impact with AoE similar to that of a siege tank.
Thats why i feel the world in conflict Idea would be cool. It not only gives the player more control and makes the look of the beam more natural and fluid, but it is definitely an outlet for unit micro. But it might have to do enough damage so that people would take the time to control it. If the attack cant kill anything anyway then why bother...
I feel like what blizzard is aiming for with the colossus is kind of like a lurker unit, except it does a line of damage parallel to the target rather than towards the target. this means it should attack a line of units head on rather than from the side, meaning its ideal position in a battle would be behind a line of zealots rather than say, trying to flank from the side as one should do with lurkers.
a lot of the ideas in this section seem too focused on the looks and not realizing you are taking out a lot of the micro dynamics away from both side playing.
I think the idea of microing parallel lines and moving beams just to get 3 random hits on a whole worker line is part of the problem, so I'd say changing the looks to some psi/laser-splosion that has some aoe to it is part of the solution. Honestly, you put both reavers and collossi in shuttles, they're both slow, one can walk up cliffs but takes air dmg as a result, the other doesn't, one does some weak ass laser that can only kill a lot of workers if they're all in a line and he gets 2-3 beams off, the other needs only an instant out of the shuttle to kill every worker caught in a big radius (and from further away). Which would you prefer?
the person microing the colossus in the video was a noob. if he had a reaver, it would have been even worse. i doubt that little sequence is a good display of colossus micro or what the colossus can do when used correctly.
first off, he didn't position his colossus right to get maximum hits. he didn't have nearly the amount of apm to do that. you should keep in mind that colossus recharge shield while in the shuttle. the shuttle also recharges shields very very quickly. without mutalisks, taking those down is a bitch.
Maybe they should add the ability to toggle the attack mode of the Collosus between the current line-sweeping laser to something more useful for taking out workers.
on topic: the original lasers aren't bad, and tbh i don't find the animation that bad either... though i am totally open to other possibilities such as the quintuple scarab chucking colossus which looks pretty awesome too
Arent you supposed to fly your nullifier in and use stasis block to block off worker exit routes before you bring up the colossi to start lasering?
If Blizzard doesnt add ingenius ways to use single units it may be up to the players to pull off effective things by using units in combination. Cause currently i dont see colossus killing anything by itself.
I don't even think the animation is bad, but the entire firing makes little sense. We got a big robot here, and all i can do is fire from right to left? When there's 2 workere behind each other, it can't even change the direction, nor can it stop moving the laser when there's only 1?
I know that may not be the idea behind the unit, but such a huge unit which fires in such a stupid way deserves little awe. When melee units approach the thing it looks completely lost. I would personally propose hitting the same area of effect, but all at the same time. The primary target would then be at the center of the aoe.
On January 01 2009 13:06 DanceDance wrote: Why not replace it with a yamato gun like attack? Add in some splash damage and you have the perfect replacement for the reaver.
Great, a unit that's already too powerful loses the only thing (scarab pathing) that makes it weaker.
hmm I dont think we should see the Collosus as a replacement for the reaver imo. Its not the same as Dragoon to Stalker.
We must look at it as if it were a totally new game. Like the Starcraft Universe and all its Gosu-ness is not existing yet. Thats wat I think. That will better help us get this artistic problem solved.
The waves are nice, but then that would make atleast 95% of the game have projectiles which you can micro goon style. Make it a little different. I actually loved the 2nd Animation. Had flaws, but the concept was pretty neat.
Maybe we could use the 2nd Animation, but have random beams come out from the eye. Like randomly there would be one on the left, then one slightly lower in ATK right next to it, and so on (with the ATK increasing and decreasing a little). It will create a shower effect of lasers. If I was a an audience member I would love to see SCVs dying in a laser shower of death! Also when I mean shower, I dont mean laser-rain drop, I mean full lenth beams.
Yeah I agree the colossus attack where it traces a line is terrible and I hate it. I think I preferred the very first one where there are two beams focusing on one target until it is dead and them moving to the next one.
Maybe something like the WarCraft III Naga Sea Witch lightning attack would be cool, too, though. Also, something more 'Protossy' as per the OP would be much better.
Also it was my understanding that the line effect for the laser was aesthetic only, so that it did not confer AoE damage in a line as you are all saying.
No, what they said is the damage was dealt to all units in the line simultaneously, not from left to right or right to left, as the animation suggests. But it definitely is line AOE.
I'm personally in favor of just replacing the attack animation entirely. The problem with it at first was that it looked powerful, but made things hard to see due to it being a long beam. The future versions increased the visual clarity, but ended up making the attack look weak and puny. It obviously shows in that pretty much every review of the Colossus in BlizzCon 2008 was negative. The attack just doesn't work for it.
I like the idea the OP is going for. Explosions are always more fun to watch than lasers. I always liked the way Dragoons attacked in SC1, so I don't any reason not to continue that in SC2. Give the Colossus some kind of "super" phase disruptor that causes a large AOE explosion. That way it keeps the visual clarity, is fun to watch, and is actually dangerous to both the enemy and the audience.
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