EPTGSL took years to investigate the option and pulled in some non negligible funds that way.
But if you don’t give me the choice I mean I can’t do much
If the ESL tour is discontinued, how much are you willing…
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26612 Posts
GSL took years to investigate the option and pulled in some non negligible funds that way. But if you don’t give me the choice I mean I can’t do much | ||
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Pietro1906
3 Posts
On January 08 2025 04:15 Balnazza wrote: While I don't want to turn this into an argument about your specific case and I'm always aware that the "nice guys" on streams can be quite different off-camera (no particular experience in SC2, but I've had that revelation a few times back in my own casting career...and probably was somewhat of an arrogant ass myself, hard to judge)...it is equally hard to judge your case, as you might expect, since we all don't know what exactly happened. Just a few pointers: - In a chat with 100-300 viewers depending on the day, it can be hard for the streamer to follow the conversation. Especially if you didn't use the exact words you said, but a bit mor flowery language. - If you got banned "for this" and not just timeouted, you clearly were not a known viewer. Of course you ban people who you don't know and who seem disrespectful right from the get-go. Also explains why no one spoke out for you...why would anyone defend some random (no offense). - It doesn't particularly help your case that you are obviously quite butthurt about this...always sparks the "are you forgetting some parts of the story"-vibes But in a more general sense: I would say it is obvious that the SC2 casters are quite passionate about the game and that is generally enough for me. Rotterdam, Zombiegrub, Pig and co. are probably the last people I would blame for the decay of SC2 The ban was in october of 2020. Honestly impressive it took mr. Pascal over 4 years to lose his love for sc2 after this traumatic experience. The user also had a previous timeout and a history of questionable messages. The "badmouthing" was also apparently a fellow chatter calling BikeRush "some guy". This level of disrespect is truly immeasurable. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On January 08 2025 03:49 Pascal1p wrote: My love for sc2 is gone, there are too little players I am invested in and in my opinion the casters also have ruined it. For example, I was a big fan of Rotterdam. But I got banned from his channel for objectively bad reasons. Someone in his chat was badmouthing BikeRush from CnC (who was at that time in the chat, enjoying sc2 as well). I said in chat: "a little more respect for one of the big names in another RTS". I got banned right that moment. So I had send an immediate request with asking: why I was banned? And then Rotterdam on his stream said: I am not going to unbann something who calls me disrespectul. Everyone knew I did not refer to Rotterdam, but no one spoke up for me. Plus I was always in chat and behaved nicely and with my behavior had shown I respected him. So it weird to get disqualified on one moment. Anyways this for me speaks volume about sc2, the scene consists of many people who can be quite toxic towards chat and also cannot take any criticism (with irony being this was not even directed at him). Aye I’m sure you were totally hard done by and weren’t just being an arsehole. Streamers love banning viewers who make up their income after all. And everyone who cops a ban was being totally respectful and not abrasive | ||
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Pascal1p
24 Posts
On January 08 2025 05:30 Pietro1906 wrote: The ban was in october of 2020. Honestly impressive it took mr. Pascal over 4 years to lose his love for sc2 after this traumatic experience. The user also had a previous timeout and a history of questionable messages. The "badmouthing" was also apparently a fellow chatter calling BikeRush "some guy". This level of disrespect is truly immeasurable. Questionable messages? Most of mine were just questions. Rotterdam even said during one of his streams that I was a good guy. Maybe my messages were at times strange. Not because I asked questionable or disgusting things but because my questions often came out of the blue. But that is mostly a personality quick, which Rotterdam even adressed. Don't remember what the other guy exactly said, but could indeed be "some guy". Which I found disrespectful for BikeRush. And that all i said. I just said something like: a little more respect for a legend from another esports. Which is not bad nor that weird to someone saying 'some guy'. And for that reason I got banned, cuz rottie thought I was saying he should have more respect. Which was not the case. Anyways even if it was, weird to bann someone over that. Then you really have an ego issue. | ||
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Pascal1p
24 Posts
On January 08 2025 05:37 WombaT wrote: Aye I’m sure you were totally hard done by and weren’t just being an arsehole. Streamers love banning viewers who make up their income after all. And everyone who cops a ban was being totally respectful and not abrasive No at that instance I was not an asshole. I am by no means a perfect guy. But literally that was all that happened there. | ||
Waxangel
United States33592 Posts
 I'll ban anyone who continues talking about it and then you'll have something to talk about on some other forum  | ||
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sidasf
98 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12447 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1281 Posts
On January 08 2025 06:49 Waxangel wrote: aight litigating one guy's ban from a stream is really off topic so everyone can just drop it I'll ban anyone who continues talking about it and then you'll have something to talk about on some other forum Liquipedia Admins clearly being the cause of SC2 decay - join me for this and other investigative news!!1 On January 08 2025 07:07 Nebuchad wrote: If ESL backs out we shouldn't artificially make players stay into this game with an amount of money that's ultimately going to be underwhelming for them, instead we should create conditions for whichever RTS-adjacent game stands out next to be enticing so that they (and ESL and others) join in. This feels...odd. Like SC2 players are not mature enough to make their own life choices and by giving them money we are somehow enabling them? A lot of Esports runs "artifically" like this. Broodwar, WC3 and AoE 2 for the longest time. But sometimes, if the community keeps it up long enough, occassionally a bigger player joins in and gives some sweet-sweet offline tournament. The biggest example for me being AoE 2 and the RedBull Wololo. The scene was so far off from being professional, yet RedBull sponsored an entire circuit that culminated in the best produced RTS tournament of all time. They played Age of Empires 2 in a freaking CASTLE in Germany. It was so over-the-top epic. ...sorry, I just always get really hyped up when thinkin about the Wololo offline finals. But my point stands: There is nothing "artifical" about a community paying the scene. It's how Esport started, it is how most sports run on amateur level. In fact, it is probably much more artifical to have either the Saudis, the company behind the game or any other company put money into a scene without it being profitable. | ||
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luxon
United States117 Posts
Re: the general point of blaming bad casters/community (not litigating the one guy, just a general point Chariman Wax) I think despite their foibles, they are clearly keeping the scene alive. Wardi is the worst example of this, he is the worst caster I've ever seen, unknowledgeable and ALWAYS misses the action because he never watches the minimap, and I keep getting banned for asking him to "watch the minimap plz", BUT he puts on a ton of tourneys and creates content. So I keep my mouth shut and ad block off when I watch him (on mute). Same with Rotti, Steadfast, PiG, etc. They are not wealthy by any means but gave hundreds of $ of their own money every week to sustain the weekly cups. Thats an enormous fraction of their income, going to pay Clem who let's face it, makes more than them. All to put on a show for fans. So despite their personal foibles, they are kind of the only good thing left. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12447 Posts
On January 08 2025 07:41 Balnazza wrote: This feels...odd. Like SC2 players are not mature enough to make their own life choices and by giving them money we are somehow enabling them? A lot of Esports runs "artifically" like this. Broodwar, WC3 and AoE 2 for the longest time. But sometimes, if the community keeps it up long enough, occassionally a bigger player joins in and gives some sweet-sweet offline tournament. The biggest example for me being AoE 2 and the RedBull Wololo. The scene was so far off from being professional, yet RedBull sponsored an entire circuit that culminated in the best produced RTS tournament of all time. They played Age of Empires 2 in a freaking CASTLE in Germany. It was so over-the-top epic. ...sorry, I just always get really hyped up when thinkin about the Wololo offline finals. But my point stands: There is nothing "artifical" about a community paying the scene. It's how Esport started, it is how most sports run on amateur level. In fact, it is probably much more artifical to have either the Saudis, the company behind the game or any other company put money into a scene without it being profitable. You're explaining that it can happen, of course it can happen, that's not in debate, if it couldn't happen then we wouldn't need to talk about it. I think it shouldn't happen, because there aren't enough people who are interested in dedicating their lives to playing a RTS, and if we split the scene even more than it is already split today, I can't see that working to our advantage in terms of watching RTS in the future. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1281 Posts
On January 08 2025 10:18 Nebuchad wrote: You're explaining that it can happen, of course it can happen, that's not in debate, if it couldn't happen then we wouldn't need to talk about it. I think it shouldn't happen, because there aren't enough people who are interested in dedicating their lives to playing a RTS, and if we split the scene even more than it is already split today, I can't see that working to our advantage in terms of watching RTS in the future. So people should not support players in a game they like on the offchance that some random new RTS will show up and be the next LoL? Pretty sure the chance of SC2 getting cool offline events even without ESL is still tremendously higher than the next RTS turning up in the next year. And as AoE 4 has proven: Players are willing to give any new RTS a chance, just to see how it works for them and on the offchance it might be a financial success. Which no RTS since SC2 (and technically AoE 2 Definitive Edition) has been. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1903 Posts
On January 08 2025 12:04 Balnazza wrote: So people should not support players in a game they like on the offchance that some random new RTS will show up and be the next LoL? Pretty sure the chance of SC2 getting cool offline events even without ESL is still tremendously higher than the next RTS turning up in the next year. And as AoE 4 has proven: Players are willing to give any new RTS a chance, just to see how it works for them and on the offchance it might be a financial success. Which no RTS since SC2 (and technically AoE 2 Definitive Edition) has been. Stormgate could be that game. Zerospace could be that game. Battle Aces could be that game. I think what he's saying is if we let SC2 have a peaceful death and go to one of the new games with open arms and deep pockets we can have new glory days. So instead of investing, let's say collectively $25,000 in SC2, let's put it into battle aces. Then if you get a bunch of tournaments players will come. Top players. Did u see showtime talk about this? He said what would it take for pro players to switch over to stormgate? It's as simple as money. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26612 Posts
On January 08 2025 12:04 Balnazza wrote: So people should not support players in a game they like on the offchance that some random new RTS will show up and be the next LoL? Pretty sure the chance of SC2 getting cool offline events even without ESL is still tremendously higher than the next RTS turning up in the next year. And as AoE 4 has proven: Players are willing to give any new RTS a chance, just to see how it works for them and on the offchance it might be a financial success. Which no RTS since SC2 (and technically AoE 2 Definitive Edition) has been. Pretty much. A problem is it’s not really up to me. We’re still in this limbo period where everything is unknown. Which precludes a real grass roots, fan-lead approach. Personally given my love for the game I’d happily throw down like a hundred quid a year, or more to see it continue in a similar fashion , but crucially as of yet I haven’t been asked. We can’t pivot as a community IMO so long as things are so uncertain, people who might happily put in money aren’t going to do so if there’s still a chance that EWC happens, or an ESL circuit. Hell look at GSL and their crowdfunding. They pulled a not insignificant amount of money in, when they asked. I’d argue they could have done so sooner But if you don’t give people that direct ‘put your money where your mouth is’ route, most people won’t do it | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17729 Posts
On January 08 2025 12:21 CicadaSC wrote: Stormgate could be that game. Zerospace could be that game. Battle Aces could be that game. I think what he's saying is if we let SC2 have a peaceful death and go to one of the new games with open arms and deep pockets we can have new glory days. So instead of investing, let's say collectively $25,000 in SC2, let's put it into battle aces. Then if you get a bunch of tournaments players will come. Top players. Did u see showtime talk about this? He said what would it take for pro players to switch over to stormgate? It's as simple as money. I haven't gotten the feeling that any of those games are as good as SC2 though | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1281 Posts
On January 08 2025 12:21 CicadaSC wrote: Stormgate could be that game. Zerospace could be that game. Battle Aces could be that game. I think what he's saying is if we let SC2 have a peaceful death and go to one of the new games with open arms and deep pockets we can have new glory days. So instead of investing, let's say collectively $25,000 in SC2, let's put it into battle aces. Then if you get a bunch of tournaments players will come. Top players. Did u see showtime talk about this? He said what would it take for pro players to switch over to stormgate? It's as simple as money. I can't speak for Battle Aces or Zerospace, but I'm 100% sure Stormgate will not be that next RTS thing. They basically did everything important with the game wrong, from the marketing, the DLC-policy, the release-circle and most importantly the gameplay. Money might motivate Pros to switch, but I don't really see why that would be any different than just supporting SC2 financially? Because Stormgate clearly will not have the playerbase needed to support an organic high-level Esports-scene. There is also no guarantee that any pro will also be great in another game (except if you are the Moreno brothers). Moon is probably the GOAT of WC3, while Naniwa was one of those B-Tier players - yet I would say Naniwa had the better career in SC2. TheViper is the GOAT of AoE 2, yet after his first big win he struggled to keep up in AoE 4...RTS skill only translates to a certain degree into a new game and ofc it becomes more difficult the higher the difference between the games is. It is also a question of motivation: With uncertain money, are you willing to yet again commit to the grind? Long story short: I don't think any SC2 fan should worry about donations "hurting" other RTS. If another RTS will become a big thing, it won't need 25K from the SC2 community. Because, quite honestly, if there isn't someone big behind it, either the Publisher or ESL, there won't be any big Esports scene anyway. Also, as a personal note...this feels like such a uniquely SC2 perspective, it's really hard to understand for me. When SC2 came out and every big name left the WC3 scene, never did the thought of "we continue to work in the WC3 space and therefore are hurting SC2" cross my mind. We also were never critisized for it. And neither did I ever hear that sentiment in the AoE community. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2257 Posts
On January 08 2025 10:14 luxon wrote: As other posters have said, its hard to make a meaningful difference in a scene like this, so prob nothing. A better question is: how much $ would i give to return to the glory days of sc2 or have it be as large as fortnite or LoL or whatever is large now, and unironically, I would prob give up a year of my CA post-tax tech salary for that. But would I take that same $ to prop up a corpse scene where all the good players are gone and pay basically the top 3 foreigners' salaries? Nah. Re: the general point of blaming bad casters/community (not litigating the one guy, just a general point Chariman Wax) I think despite their foibles, they are clearly keeping the scene alive. Wardi is the worst example of this, he is the worst caster I've ever seen, unknowledgeable and ALWAYS misses the action because he never watches the minimap, and I keep getting banned for asking him to "watch the minimap plz", BUT he puts on a ton of tourneys and creates content. So I keep my mouth shut and ad block off when I watch him (on mute). Same with Rotti, Steadfast, PiG, etc. They are not wealthy by any means but gave hundreds of $ of their own money every week to sustain the weekly cups. Thats an enormous fraction of their income, going to pay Clem who let's face it, makes more than them. All to put on a show for fans. So despite their personal foibles, they are kind of the only good thing left. I pretty much agree 100% with this. I ain't paying any money so that Clem can remain one of like 5 people who can make a living off of SC2. Also, unfortunately, as the game declined, the best presenting/casting talent also left, and while I truly and wholeheartedly appreciate and respect Wardi for what he is doing for the community, I just can't bring myself to listen to his poorly informed and unentertaining commentary. I'll always love SC2, but the current scene is just not appealing to me anymore. | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
On January 08 2025 18:42 SharkStarcraft wrote: I pretty much agree 100% with this. I ain't paying any money so that Clem can remain one of like 5 people who can make a living off of SC2. Also, unfortunately, as the game declined, the best presenting/casting talent also left, and while I truly and wholeheartedly appreciate and respect Wardi for what he is doing for the community, I just can't bring myself to listen to his poorly informed and unentertaining commentary. I'll always love SC2, but the current scene is just not appealing to me anymore. If you 'always love sc2', but can't stand wardi commentating. Who does a fine job.. I guess your love doesn't mean very much. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12447 Posts
On January 08 2025 16:14 Balnazza wrote: Also, as a personal note...this feels like such a uniquely SC2 perspective, it's really hard to understand for me. When SC2 came out and every big name left the WC3 scene, never did the thought of "we continue to work in the WC3 space and therefore are hurting SC2" cross my mind. We also were never critisized for it. And neither did I ever hear that sentiment in the AoE community. There was a ton of players back then, so it didn't matter if we lost some of them who stayed in WC3 (and even more who stayed in Broodwar). | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1281 Posts
On January 08 2025 22:11 Nebuchad wrote: There was a ton of players back then, so it didn't matter if we lost some of them who stayed in WC3 (and even more who stayed in Broodwar). Doesn't matter. It was a completly opposite mentality back then. People who stayed with WC3 often had a profound hatred or atleast dislike for SC2. I was an admin for WC3 longest running Teamleague at the time. When we even made a singular cup for SC2, we barely had any signups and got a good chunk of critisism for it aswell. Before SC2, the same was true to some extend for WoW. I mean, even Grubby recently said that he never played WoW until now because of that, it was just settled in his mind that "WoW was hurting WC3 back then, ergo WoW --> bad!" I don't know if there is an english equivalent for the word, but in German we would say that we had a "Wagenburgmentalität". A complete castling/walling against the things that did "hurt" our game and ruined our scene. Not saying it was a particularly healthy mentality, but it still feels better than just giving up completly on the offchance a new game can do something. Carries on to this day. Look at Back2Warcraft: They are obviously looking into new RTS, but that doesn't stop them from keeping WC3 as their overwhelming focus. And no one accuses them of doing a disservice or tells them to stop casting WC3 and support Stormgate instead... | ||
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