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On March 28 2024 18:35 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 11:22 Kitai wrote:On March 26 2024 18:11 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 26 2024 13:41 Malinor wrote:
I do not feel the community response has been disappointing or particularly negative. This is such a loaded topic, obviously it creates controversy. One could argue that the creation of such a list in itself has the purpose to create controversy. How could it be any other way? The discussion has also been pretty civil from my point of view.
I would view anything related to this creation as a success for TL.
I agree, it was a huge success. I could have worded things better about the negativity. That's something I got over pretty quickly. However, a number of non sc2 related factors, plus reaching the realization that it was going to be difficult to create the articles I wanted for 15-11 (aka discussing their greatness rather than defending my decision to place them where they were) made finishing the project impossible atm. Part of why the series was a huge success was Wax being involved. His standards are absurdly high and getting the articles to a point where he was satisfied was the most challenging part of the process. It was going to take a lot of time that I didn't have to get there. Luckily, all the information I created isn't going anywhere. So, we'll see what the future brings. Just out of curiosity, if it turned out to be a great success and you thought it was well-received, what made the experience "less than enjoyable" for you? Did it just turn out to be a bigger undertaking than you initially intended? My work was basically finished by the time the first article came out. At that point, my responsibilities shifted to doing whatever random task was needed of me to polish them off. So, no, the workload was fine. The process of writing them was great. The fact that it started so much discussion was great. The fact that the quality of the articles was so high was great. It just took up a lot of mental energy, so to speak. Those who know me know how much I care about my work and the toll that took on me was more than expected. That's not to say I wouldn't do this all over again. I was incredible lucky to be given the opportunity. Having gone through it once, I think I'd be be far more prepared than I was this time I around.
Got it, thanks for the insight! Selfishly hoping you can recharge your batteries and put out those related blogs you were working on 
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On March 29 2024 08:32 Nasigil1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 03:59 LostUsername100 wrote:I really liked these stats as they account for opportunity and conversion rate: We can see that Dark actually hits ro4's more than Rogue, but wins less of them. I think Maru is solidly #2, Serral is #1, and Dark is a lot higher than #11. IMO it's more reasonable to place Dark over Rogue than Dark at 11th, but I tend to favor consistency rather than winning stuff occasionally, just too much luck on SC2 tournaments as a whole. Thank you! I always wanted to see a graph like this. A lot of clueless people like to say Serral only has good numbers because he "farms regionlock tournaments", but this stats shows that even if you simply discount Serral's EU stuff and only focus on his international results, he still has the most successful and dominant career compared to anyone. Highest tournament conversion rate in terms of wins, finals and semifinals appearance, and highest win rate against top players. And the difference is quite staggering especially compared to Maru and Rogue. If you think Mvp's one and half year peak is so impressive that it still lands him in #4 after all these years, think about it, Serral has been consistently doing better than that for 6 straight years. The only argument against him is that he was born too late and didn't compete in the KeSPA era. That's fine. But anyone still using "but he has no GSL" as an argument just really don't know what they are talking about.
I think the arguments "he was born too late" and "he doesn't have a GSL" go pretty much hand in hand.
I think when people say he doesn't have a GSL they don't mean the "weak" GSLs in 2024 but the hyper-competitive GSLs from back in the past (not only Kespa era but WoL era and then later until like 2019/20 it was still very competitive).
So yeah in 2018/19 he technically had the chance to compete in a still very competitive GSL but after that the opportunity was gone.
And that's definitely a flaw in his resumee compared to the koreans who won those hyper competitive GSLs
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I enjoyed the series. Thanks for writing it.
I also think that the rankings of Dark and Mvp are egregiously wrong and that straight up swapping the two would be a lot closer to reality.
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Good job Mvp and Nestea! You only play 3 years to be 4th and only one year to be 13rd best sc2 player of all time.
based on time, this is an excellent trade off.
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I'd respect the list more if we were more honest about sc history. As PiG alludes, theres no metric in which you can measure (wins, championships, head-to-head) that Life isnt top 5 all time. You can prevent him from competing in the future, but you cant pretend history didnt happen just becuase you don't like someone. He won all those championships fair - no hacks or cheats or anything, and he did it at like 14. If we let him keep playing he would be the unquestionable GOAT, but even if we hadnt you need to evaluate players fairly based on results, not just if you like them as a person.
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On March 30 2024 07:55 luxon wrote:
I'd respect the list more if we were more honest about sc history. As PiG alludes, theres no metric in which you can measure (wins, championships, head-to-head) that Life isnt top 5 all time. You can prevent him from competing in the future, but you cant pretend history didnt happen just becuase you don't like someone. He won all those championships fair - no hacks or cheats or anything, and he did it at like 14. If we let him keep playing he would be the unquestionable GOAT, but even if we hadnt you need to evaluate players fairly based on results, not just if you like them as a person.
Even if Life would be included he would not be in the top 5 lmao.
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On March 30 2024 08:23 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2024 07:55 luxon wrote:
I'd respect the list more if we were more honest about sc history. As PiG alludes, theres no metric in which you can measure (wins, championships, head-to-head) that Life isnt top 5 all time. You can prevent him from competing in the future, but you cant pretend history didnt happen just becuase you don't like someone. He won all those championships fair - no hacks or cheats or anything, and he did it at like 14. If we let him keep playing he would be the unquestionable GOAT, but even if we hadnt you need to evaluate players fairly based on results, not just if you like them as a person. Even if Life would be included he would not be in the top 5 lmao.
Yeah I think Life is around #7/8 between soO and sOs, but then again I don't know how Mvp is rated #4 over Inno and Zest.
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Life would be just behind Mvp, right before the match-fixing scandal people were starting to seriously debate if he had surpassed him. It was generally agreed that if Life were to say, win another GSL or World Championship or something, that'd make it official that he was the #1 undisputed GOAT.
But either way, he doesn't deserve to be on the list. I could see him being on the list without a write-up as a decent compromise, but none of his achievements or accomplishments should be glorified whatsoever.
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On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2.
[...]
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure.
Great post, enjoyed reading this ! I agree, I can't see Dark being below soO.
Also, I didn't realize that he lost SO many 3:4 series, godamn. Also most of the times he's losing them to Maru, Serral, or Rogue. Only the other top tier GOATs.
On March 30 2024 03:22 Dingodile wrote:
Good job Mvp and Nestea! You only play 3 years to be 4th and only one year to be 13rd best sc2 player of all time.
based on time, this is an excellent trade off.
Damn lol this is how I felt too. It feels like they got a great bargain.
Compared to Dark who worked so hard for so long, but is much below MVP.
If I were a kid and had to pick whose career I'd dream to have when I grow up, it would be Dark's. Being a progamer and top contender for a decade? Or having a high concentrated peak for 1-1.5 years and then falling off by the 3rd year? I'd pick Dark's. Look at how rich he's gotten off SC2 too! (Though I'd understand people picking the higher peak).
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On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken.
He's not insulting you, he's destroying your list. We're respecting the effort put in, but I would say that the top 10 from the site Esportsearnings is a better list than this.
On March 29 2024 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken. While everything you say is true, aren't you kinda cherrypicking time periods that make Dark look worse? He was the best player (or at least had a very good case for being the best player) in 2016 and 2019, so if you would look at individual years instead of the 3-4 year periods you chose he had more years in which he was the best player than many of the players above him in the ranking. Is it really a negative that he had 2 shorter periods of dominance instead of 1 longer one? I don't know, I think the criticism here is that it can't really be backed up with data that Dark ranks below TY, soO or Rain and comes down more to "vibes"
Right, and this argument should also consistently be put on Maru. Despite Maru being on JAGW after the disbandment of the other team houses, he really fell off at the start of LotV being outclassed by ByuN and TY.
On March 30 2024 08:23 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2024 07:55 luxon wrote:
I'd respect the list more if we were more honest about sc history. As PiG alludes, theres no metric in which you can measure (wins, championships, head-to-head) that Life isnt top 5 all time. You can prevent him from competing in the future, but you cant pretend history didnt happen just becuase you don't like someone. He won all those championships fair - no hacks or cheats or anything, and he did it at like 14. If we let him keep playing he would be the unquestionable GOAT, but even if we hadnt you need to evaluate players fairly based on results, not just if you like them as a person. Even if Life would be included he would not be in the top 5 lmao.
He should be above MVP, so he could be top 5, that or they could both be way lower.
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Northern Ireland24396 Posts
On March 30 2024 21:03 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken. He's not insulting you, he's destroying your list. We're respecting the effort put in, but I would say that the top 10 from the site Esportsearnings is a better list than this. Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken. While everything you say is true, aren't you kinda cherrypicking time periods that make Dark look worse? He was the best player (or at least had a very good case for being the best player) in 2016 and 2019, so if you would look at individual years instead of the 3-4 year periods you chose he had more years in which he was the best player than many of the players above him in the ranking. Is it really a negative that he had 2 shorter periods of dominance instead of 1 longer one? I don't know, I think the criticism here is that it can't really be backed up with data that Dark ranks below TY, soO or Rain and comes down more to "vibes" Right, and this argument should also consistently be put on Maru. Despite Maru being on JAGW after the disbandment of the other team houses, he really fell off at the start of LotV being outclassed by ByuN and TY. Show nested quote +On March 30 2024 08:23 Luolis wrote:On March 30 2024 07:55 luxon wrote:
I'd respect the list more if we were more honest about sc history. As PiG alludes, theres no metric in which you can measure (wins, championships, head-to-head) that Life isnt top 5 all time. You can prevent him from competing in the future, but you cant pretend history didnt happen just becuase you don't like someone. He won all those championships fair - no hacks or cheats or anything, and he did it at like 14. If we let him keep playing he would be the unquestionable GOAT, but even if we hadnt you need to evaluate players fairly based on results, not just if you like them as a person. Even if Life would be included he would not be in the top 5 lmao. He should be above MVP, so he could be top 5, that or they could both be way lower.
Nah, the top 10 of earnings isn’t too bad as a ranking, although Reynor is a bit high.
Lower down it gets a bit wonky, Neeb above herO and Classic or Oliveira above a Cure or MMA?
Between region locked tournaments and fluctuations in prize pools for the same prizes just looking at prize earnings has plenty of flaws
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United States1804 Posts
On March 30 2024 21:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2024 21:03 ejozl wrote:On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken. He's not insulting you, he's destroying your list. We're respecting the effort put in, but I would say that the top 10 from the site Esportsearnings is a better list than this. On March 29 2024 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken. While everything you say is true, aren't you kinda cherrypicking time periods that make Dark look worse? He was the best player (or at least had a very good case for being the best player) in 2016 and 2019, so if you would look at individual years instead of the 3-4 year periods you chose he had more years in which he was the best player than many of the players above him in the ranking. Is it really a negative that he had 2 shorter periods of dominance instead of 1 longer one? I don't know, I think the criticism here is that it can't really be backed up with data that Dark ranks below TY, soO or Rain and comes down more to "vibes" Right, and this argument should also consistently be put on Maru. Despite Maru being on JAGW after the disbandment of the other team houses, he really fell off at the start of LotV being outclassed by ByuN and TY. On March 30 2024 08:23 Luolis wrote:On March 30 2024 07:55 luxon wrote:
I'd respect the list more if we were more honest about sc history. As PiG alludes, theres no metric in which you can measure (wins, championships, head-to-head) that Life isnt top 5 all time. You can prevent him from competing in the future, but you cant pretend history didnt happen just becuase you don't like someone. He won all those championships fair - no hacks or cheats or anything, and he did it at like 14. If we let him keep playing he would be the unquestionable GOAT, but even if we hadnt you need to evaluate players fairly based on results, not just if you like them as a person. Even if Life would be included he would not be in the top 5 lmao. He should be above MVP, so he could be top 5, that or they could both be way lower. Nah, the top 10 of earnings isn’t too bad as a ranking, although Reynor is a bit high. Lower down it gets a bit wonky, Neeb above herO and Classic or Oliveira above a Cure or MMA? Between region locked tournaments and fluctuations in prize pools for the same prizes just looking at prize earnings has plenty of flaws
But...but...since everything was Zerg favored when Serral won it would make sense to only count 80% of the prize towards his total.
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Northern Ireland24396 Posts
On March 30 2024 22:29 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2024 21:19 WombaT wrote:On March 30 2024 21:03 ejozl wrote:On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken. He's not insulting you, he's destroying your list. We're respecting the effort put in, but I would say that the top 10 from the site Esportsearnings is a better list than this. On March 29 2024 07:03 Charoisaur wrote:On March 29 2024 06:09 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 29 2024 05:44 argonautdice wrote:
Dark is the true Kong of SC2. Despite only winning a SSL before his peak in 2019 in the more competitive era, he got silver in 7 Premier tournaments, 2 SSL's, 2 Kespa Cups, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WESG, and 1 Super Tournament, and 5 of these he was literally 1 game away from gold losing 3:4. After a career peak in 2019 where he won a Code S, Blizzcon, and a Super Tournament within 6 months, he won another GSL, TSL6, and DH Valencia, but got 5 more second places in 3 Super tournies, a Code S, and ESL Winter, 3 of which he again lost 3:4. So basically Dark was 8 games away from having 15 Premier championships (5 Super tournies, 3 SSL's, 2 Code S, 1 Blizzcon/WESG/Kespa Cup/DH/TSL). He's also the only one aside from Rogue and Maru to win at least 3 GSL/SSL combined during LotV. And this is not counting the countless Top 4's Dark reached. Dark has basically been a threat to win it all in every tournament since 2015.
If we compare Dark's resume to TY's,
Pre-2015: no notable individual results from either players.
2015: Dark - 2 Kespa Cup silvers, top 4 at IEM World Championship; TY - top 4 at SSL and IEM Shenzhen. Dark wins here
2016: Dark - 1 SSL gold, 1 SSL silver, 1 Blizzcon silver, top 4 at IEM Gyeonggi; TY - 1 code S silver, top 4 at Kespa Cup. Dark wins by a lot here.
2017: Dark - 1 SSL silver, top 4 at IEM world, Code S, super tourney; TY - 1 IEM world gold, 1 WESG gold, 2nd at GSL vs world, top 4 at IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon. TY wins by a lot here.
So for 2015-2017 pre-Maru/Serral hyper-competitive era: Dark barely edges out TY.
2018: Dark - silver in WESG and super tourney, top 4 in GSL vs world and Code S; TY - a silver and a top 4 in Code S. They're about even here.
2019: Dark - gold in GSL, Super tourney, and Blizzcon, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and IEM world; TY - silver in Super tourney. Dark wins by a lot here.
2020: Dark - gold in TSL6, silver in Super tourney; TY - 2 golds in GSL, top 4 in another GSL, Super tourney, and King of Battles. TY wins by a lot here.
Thus for 2018-2020: Dark and TY are about even.
2021-Present: TY basically went to the military and only got a top 4 at DH last chance beforehand and didn't place high anywhere since his return, while Dark won another Code S in 2021, and placed at least top 4 a ton since then, though it's not really a fair comparison, but I still give the slight edge to Dark for winning a Code S in 2021.
And since we seem to value Proleague record as well for the GOAT list,
2012-2013: Dark 0-1, TY 26-26. TY wins.
2014: Dark 6-3, TY 17-12. TY wins.
2015: Dark 17-12, TY 10-11. Dark wins.
2016: Dark 13-12, TY 14-13. Basically tie, though Dark's ace match record is 3-1 while TY is 1-1. and Dark's playoff record is 3-1 while TY is 2-1 (interestingly TY did beat Dark in the ace match here).
Dark was also a strong threat in every season of the WTL series while TY's record was pretty poor, though he only played in 1 season right before military.
So they're about even in team league except the first season of SC2 proleague, but 26-26 is a pretty mediocre record and I can't fault Dark for still getting good at the game just like I can't penalize TY for going to the military.
In conclusion, I think Dark barely edges out TY by the quantity of his high placements, and at best you can say they're tied, and if TY is #8 on the GOAT list, Dark should be top 10 for sure. The phrase "longevity is a double edged sword" was central to my thinking for the entire series. Dark has had an incredible career in which he has piled up accolade after accolade, but he was mediocre in hots, had a lower three year peak than Stats from 2016-2018 (its also fair to say that between WESG and 3 Code S wins Maru exceeded Dark's achievements during those three years in far less time). After that Dark is a top 5 player, but clearly behind Maru, Serral, Rogue and it's a toss up with Reynor. Dark experienced an uptick in results once TY and Rogue retired, whereas the other players mentioned pretty much kept up their pace. People can disagree, but there's enough nuance in this discussion to say that he ranks fourth when it comes to cumulative achievements and could rank as highly as seven given my methodology, but the length of time it took him to achieve all he did was a negative in my eyes that did more to harm his case than players like soO/Inno/sOs (players that were also held back by their performances at the end of their careers). You're onto something with your explanation, but one thing has to be corrected. Dark was not a threat to win any events in 2015. He made it to the finals of two KeSPA Cups (losing to soO of all people in the second one), but he didn't even reach the Round of 8 of a Korean Individual League until 2016. He was just an average Proleague player who went 3-1 in two weekenders. On March 29 2024 02:58 Odoakar wrote:
People are upset because your rankings are objectively bad. Dark should be in TOP10. Maru shouldn't be rank 1. Serral and Rogue are 1-2, Maru is 3rd. And, this is the downside to the series. Because every time I go to this site I had to see people who speak in absolutes, frequently only use tournament results to communicate their points and resort to insults for no reason at all. On March 29 2024 06:15 CerebrateHector wrote:
Also, can we stop with this crap about Serral needing to play on Code S?, why does a FINNISH player needs to play on KOREA ? And its not even the most premier tournament
I never said that. In fact, I think anyone who holds this opinion is mistaken. While everything you say is true, aren't you kinda cherrypicking time periods that make Dark look worse? He was the best player (or at least had a very good case for being the best player) in 2016 and 2019, so if you would look at individual years instead of the 3-4 year periods you chose he had more years in which he was the best player than many of the players above him in the ranking. Is it really a negative that he had 2 shorter periods of dominance instead of 1 longer one? I don't know, I think the criticism here is that it can't really be backed up with data that Dark ranks below TY, soO or Rain and comes down more to "vibes" Right, and this argument should also consistently be put on Maru. Despite Maru being on JAGW after the disbandment of the other team houses, he really fell off at the start of LotV being outclassed by ByuN and TY. On March 30 2024 08:23 Luolis wrote:On March 30 2024 07:55 luxon wrote:
I'd respect the list more if we were more honest about sc history. As PiG alludes, theres no metric in which you can measure (wins, championships, head-to-head) that Life isnt top 5 all time. You can prevent him from competing in the future, but you cant pretend history didnt happen just becuase you don't like someone. He won all those championships fair - no hacks or cheats or anything, and he did it at like 14. If we let him keep playing he would be the unquestionable GOAT, but even if we hadnt you need to evaluate players fairly based on results, not just if you like them as a person. Even if Life would be included he would not be in the top 5 lmao. He should be above MVP, so he could be top 5, that or they could both be way lower. Nah, the top 10 of earnings isn’t too bad as a ranking, although Reynor is a bit high. Lower down it gets a bit wonky, Neeb above herO and Classic or Oliveira above a Cure or MMA? Between region locked tournaments and fluctuations in prize pools for the same prizes just looking at prize earnings has plenty of flaws But...but...since everything was Zerg favored when Serral won it would make sense to only count 80% of the prize towards his total.
Haha aye the game has been super imbalanced for 6/7 years!
I think if one was to use prize money as a metric you’d have to weight it versus the pools of eligible tournaments, and even then region locked weaker tournaments like EU but especially NA/China skew things a bit much.
Even then you have wonky scenarios such as herO getting a silver in a WC equivalent event but getting 0 prize money because they were experimenting with a winner-takes-all format.
Then additional wonkiness in the Proleague era where actually it was very important to Kespa teams and salaries reflected performance in there. Hey x may have not earned a huge amount in prize money for a particular year, but they were stomping it in Proleague and had a 40-50k salary that reflected those priorities. Or whatever it was, I’ve no real idea what top, top Proleague performers were pulling in salary wise, I assume you with your connections have a better idea!
Enjoy the holiday and enjoy Korea sir! Very much enjoyed this labour of love. As you said it’s relatively easy to get say a top 15, but actually sitting down and ordering them is considerably more difficult. Based on chats emanating from this list I ended up trying to merely rank the top 3 Terrans, only in HoTS and even that was very hard
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I do think sOs's win matters even more and that herO's 2nd place matters less, for this one event, because money does have a say. Though, I wouldn't go as far as to say that 2nd and 3rd/4th place should then be counted equally.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3SwLqAT.png)
