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GOAT Addendum: Players 15-11 - Page 3
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daKenji
2 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1882 Posts
On March 25 2024 18:21 Comedy wrote: Thanks for clarifying dark's position. There's a 5k word article in there that talks about Dark in greater detail. A project for the future, I suppose. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3111 Posts
Overall, this series has really revived TL.net and imo has really benefited the SC2 scene overall, as it seems to have generated debate and interest across the Internet and brought a lot of past fans back into paying attention. Personally, it's been very fun to follow the debates and discussions and see how the different lenses people apply to results and how they value different kinds of results and characteristics and even how they see the concepts of "greatest" or "highest skilled" or "most dominant" change what answers you come up with. I could come up with a Top Ten list for fun, but that would be just based on my own favorites and likes and dislikes. I'm not very invested in who is "greatest" in a more objective sense. But as I've said, I've really enjoyed following those debates from a strictly rational/philosophical perspective, and I'm very grateful for Miz's hard work. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
I'd love like a "top X Terran/Zerg/Toss players", "top 10 non-Koreans" kinda lists but I understand if you're not really up for it after this | ||
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Moonerz
United States446 Posts
Still nothing beats a high stakes team league to me though. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1882 Posts
On March 25 2024 21:27 Schelim wrote: i appreciate the effort and I read (most of) every single one of these articles. it sucks that people have to be so negative. like, it's cool if someone has a different opinion, but you don't gotta be an asshole to them over it. I'd love like a "top X Terran/Zerg/Toss players", "top 10 non-Koreans" kinda lists but I understand if you're not really up for it after this I'm not opposed to doing more stuff in this vein (with editor approval of course), but given my current schedule there was no way anything of real substance was getting done before my vacation. By the time I return, I have less than 2 months until I travel to Korea for three months and I'm more focused on lining up some projects to work on while I'm there since there will be more opportunities to do some interesting stuff I wouldn't be able to from home. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1882 Posts
On March 26 2024 00:08 Moonerz wrote: Yep I'll echo what others have said. Big thanks to Miz for putting this together and giving the community something to discuss. Every time one of these retrospective articles comes back it really makes me realize how quickly time is passing. Still nothing beats a high stakes team league to me though. https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/561920-2015-the-renaissance-and-golden-age-of-korean-sc2 Everyone who was around then feels the same way. | ||
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MM-yingxiong
Serbia26 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4950 Posts
On March 26 2024 00:12 Mizenhauer wrote: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/561920-2015-the-renaissance-and-golden-age-of-korean-sc2 Everyone who was around then feels the same way. This article aged like fine wine | ||
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Locutos
Brazil268 Posts
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Xamo
Spain880 Posts
This series of articles will be remembered for years. | ||
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Bennito_bh
15 Posts
On March 25 2024 04:47 ktll4c91 wrote: ''[Dark] didn’t win/make deep runs enough considering he has been active without interruption since 2012'' If by deep runs you mean RO4 at least, I counted Dark has 12 deep runs at Code S including 3 wins. In contrast TY has 6 (2 wins). Soo has 7 (0 win). Inno has 7 (3 wins). Rogue has 5 (4 wins). On top of it all Dark has 1 WCS chamption and 1 runner-up. Even if you are factoring in the length of his uninterrupted career, I don't see how this is now enough deep runs. Exactly this. Perhaps if Miz had consistently applied his own criteria, his list would have been better received. Even if you do sign on to Korean Exceptionalism, there really is no reason to put Maru above Rogue in a list like this | ||
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YetiSpaghetti
2 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4728 Posts
I would view anything related to this creation as a success for TL. | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
On March 26 2024 09:14 Bennito_bh wrote: Exactly this. Perhaps if Miz had consistently applied his own criteria, his list would have been better received. Even if you do sign on to Korean Exceptionalism, there really is no reason to put Maru above Rogue in a list like this Despite Miz literally saying that Serral / Maru / Rogue are all the same tier......... You have quite a lot of attitude for someone who is overwhelmingly convinced Rogue > Maru. They're obviously comparable, but I'd say Maru has a clear edge over Rogue for being definitively better in earlier years (2013-2015), particularly in the era where Terrans were getting destroyed. But I do agree Dark was slept on, and I think Dark should be 7-8. | ||
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yubo56
688 Posts
On March 25 2024 20:12 Mizenhauer wrote: There's a 5k word article in there that talks about Dark in greater detail. A project for the future, I suppose. Moar Dark content please! - rabid fan | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1882 Posts
On March 26 2024 13:41 Malinor wrote: I do not feel the community response has been disappointing or particularly negative. This is such a loaded topic, obviously it creates controversy. One could argue that the creation of such a list in itself has the purpose to create controversy. How could it be any other way? The discussion has also been pretty civil from my point of view. I would view anything related to this creation as a success for TL. I agree, it was a huge success. I could have worded things better about the negativity. That's something I got over pretty quickly. However, a number of non sc2 related factors, plus reaching the realization that it was going to be difficult to create the articles I wanted for 15-11 (aka discussing their greatness rather than defending my decision to place them where they were) made finishing the project impossible atm. Part of why the series was a huge success was Wax being involved. His standards are absurdly high and getting the articles to a point where he was satisfied was the most challenging part of the process. It was going to take a lot of time that I didn't have to get there. Luckily, all the information I created isn't going anywhere. So, we'll see what the future brings. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4363 Posts
Thank you Mizenhauer for your considerable effort in compiling these and don't let the obnoxious tantrums of the fanboys discourage you too much, people would have been upset no matter who you picked as number 1 or how you ordered people. Also Intrigue ended up being completely right despite the considerable backlash he received at the time. 8 of the top 10 were former Brood War pros on kespa teams. | ||
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LostUsername100
95 Posts
On March 26 2024 21:24 DropBear wrote: I haven't followed sc2 since about 2011 so had no perspective on who was the best. Greatly enjoyed reading through each of the articles and the justifications for each position seemed very reasonable to me. Thank you Mizenhauer for your considerable effort in compiling these and don't let the obnoxious tantrums of the fanboys discourage you too much, people would have been upset no matter who you picked as number 1 or how you ordered people. Also Intrigue ended up being completely right despite the considerable backlash he received at the time. 8 of the top 10 were former Brood War pros on kespa teams. If his claim was BW pros could do well on SC2, he'd be completely right, yes. But that wasn't it. | ||
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rwala
297 Posts
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