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United States33404 Posts
Source: ESL Announcement
StarCraft II has officially been announced as part of the Esports World Cup 2024 (formerly Gamers8), with the tournament serving as the World Championship for the 2023/24 EPT season.
18 players will play in a 5-day event, and play for "the largest prize pool StarCraft has ever seen" (the sum was not disclosed in the official ESL post). The previous top prize pool for StarCraft II was $700,000 at BlizzCon 2017-2019.
ESL announced the following qualification process for the tournament:
- 2023 ESL Masters Summer champion (DH Jonkoping): Serral
- 2023 ESL Masters Winter champion (DH Atlanta): Clem
- Top 4 from IEM Katowice 2024
- Top 4 from ESL Masters Spring (DH Dallas)
- Top 2 EPT Europe point standings
- Top 2 EPT Korea point standings
- Top 1 EPT Americas point standings
- Top 1 EPT Asia point standings
- 2 players from open qualifiers.
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/ewcqualification.png)
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I thought this was already confirmed before, would've been REALLY awkward if it wasn't after all of these teams getting players and IEM Katoice no longer being the world championship lol
"the largest prize pool StarCraft has ever seen" (the sum was not disclosed in the official ESL post). The previous top prize pool for StarCraft II was $700,000 at BlizzCon 2017-2019.
Nice!
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18 players, I wonder how the format would look like.
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On February 03 2024 01:28 ekojs wrote:
18 players, I wonder how the format would look like.
two round robin groups of 9 into top 8 single elim bracket? I guess.
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Maru should be ranked by having won 2 GSL.
But hey, the ESL always supporting its European boys
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On February 03 2024 02:18 conormcgregor156 wrote:
Maru should be ranked by having won 2 GSL.
But hey, the ESL always supporting its European boys
Why should GSL give out invites to ESL Masters AND the World Cup?
I really hope they don't fuck up the format for this - 18 players is already a bit awkward, but lets wait and see. Could also be that there is some sort of PlayIn-Stage.
Also like the invite-structure, giving weight to the last Masters. Also interesting to see what will happen when players qualify multiple times - will their slot just be given to their region instead (e.g. Serral gets Top 4 at Katowice, so EU gets a slot more)? Could lead to some interesting dynamics. While it is highly unlikely, the biggest prizepool in SC2 history could be played out with just two koreans, which would be insane. But I gues it is more realistic Korea will atleast snatch 6-7 slots, if not the entire 10-12 (depending how the Open Qualifier will work) that are up for grabs.
Anyway, great that there are finally numbers to work with and players and fans have the confirmation how many players will be able to attend and what they have to do for it. The uncertainty was kinda dampening the mood for me lately.
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Kinda disapointing, that the EPT points are pretty much meaningles now. Almost no players get invited over the standings compared to last years Katowice and Blizzcon before that
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On February 03 2024 02:35 dbRic1203 wrote:
Kinda disapointing, that the EPT points are pretty much meaningles now. Almost no players get invited over the standings compared to last years Katowice and Blizzcon before that
Yeah, I kinda agree with this. I am constantly confused about what the system even is these days, it seems to change faster than it takes me to learn, and I have mixed feelings over the saudi money, but SC2 staying alive is good overall.
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I guess this means we'll have a $1.000.000 price pool, which is the minimum price pool of all other games that were last year in Gamers8. SC2 was the only game with a $500.000 price pool if I remember correctly.
The rules for multiple qualification seem to be unclear. I think the best option would be the top positions in the tournaments to be fixed and not replaced (i.e. if Serral and Clem are top4 in IEM Katowice 2024 then only the other 2 players qualify), but they are replaced if they are in the "top points" list (i.e. currently 3rd and 4th from Europe qualify, as Serral and Clem are 1st and 2nd).
Edit: As this is now EPT World Champship, perhaps its rules apply.
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On February 03 2024 02:59 Xamo wrote:
I guess this means we'll have a $1.000.000 price pool, which is the minimum price pool of all other games that were last year in Gamers8. SC2 was the only game with a $500.000 price pool if I remember correctly.
The rules for multiple qualification seem to be unclear. I think the best option would be the top positions in the tournaments to be fixed and not replaced (i.e. if Serral and Clem are top4 in IEM Katowice 2024 then only the other 2 players qualify), but they are replaced if they are in the "top points" list (i.e. currently 3rd and 4th from Europe qualify, as Serral and Clem are 1st and 2nd).
Edit: As this is now EPT World Champship, perhaps its rules apply.
This is already the case.
The next set of players will qualify by reaching the semifinals of IEM Katowice 2024 and ESL SC2 Masters Spring at DreamHack Dallas 2024 or by topping their respective regional EPT standings - in case any player earns more than one slot, the competitor with the highest EPT Global Standings rank will be invited. The lineup will be complete after the last chance open qualifiers, to be held online later this Summer.
It will be from the global standings though.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
I don’t like a tournament having borderline retrospective qualification standards
The first iteration hey it’s a new tournament with that Saudi money, you’ve got to cobble something together somehow. Needs must and all that.
This iteration you can’t specify the qualification standards more in advance? And they’re very different standards from Gamers 8.
Like I wonder how many players have been grinding the weeklies assuming EPT points would be how most entrants get in, only to find those efforts are completely immaterial now the standards are announced
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United States1878 Posts
On February 03 2024 03:11 WombaT wrote:
I don’t like a tournament having borderline retrospective qualification standards
The first iteration hey it’s a new tournament with that Saudi money, you’ve got to cobble something together somehow. Needs must and all that.
This iteration you can’t specify the qualification standards more in advance? And they’re very different standards from Gamers 8.
Like I wonder how many players have been grinding the weeklies assuming EPT points would be how most entrants get in, only to find those efforts are completely immaterial now the standards are announced
I think a lot of players are just happy that there is an event being held with a six figure first place prize. For better or worse, this will be the most important tournament of the year and one of the (presumably) few opportunities to win this much cash before sc2 prize pools are reduced even further. We can talk about prestige or history when we talk about tournaments, but it's the money that motivates players most of all. Some won't but I think a lot of players will forgive losing out on EPT points given what they're getting in return.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 04:40 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 03:11 WombaT wrote:
I don’t like a tournament having borderline retrospective qualification standards
The first iteration hey it’s a new tournament with that Saudi money, you’ve got to cobble something together somehow. Needs must and all that.
This iteration you can’t specify the qualification standards more in advance? And they’re very different standards from Gamers 8.
Like I wonder how many players have been grinding the weeklies assuming EPT points would be how most entrants get in, only to find those efforts are completely immaterial now the standards are announced I think a lot of players are just happy that there is an event being held with a six figure first place prize. For better or worse, this will be the most important tournament of the year and one of the (presumably) few opportunities to win this much cash before sc2 prize pools are reduced even further. We can talk about prestige or history when we talk about tournaments, but it's the money that motivates players most of all. Some won't but I think a lot of players will forgive losing out on EPT points given what they're getting in return.
I’m sure they are, it’s not my point.
Assuming this tournament was confirmed as happening quite some time ago, which maybe it wasn’t. Although judging by various orgs picking up SC2 players seemingly to have presence in another game it seems unlikely it wasn’t at least privately confirmed.
The previous iteration of said tournament was mostly based on EPT points, this wasn’t. If I’m a pro on the edge of qualifying via EPT points I’m playing every weekly going, only to find it’s basically immaterial.
Announce the qualification standards more in advance, so players can tailor what they’re focusing on, I don’t think this is unreasonable.
You’re doling out spots in a completely different way to your last tournament, halfway through a season.
It’s a terrible way to do it
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
SC2 is just a title dangled to give this push some initial legitimacy and will be dropped entirely after an edition or two if it catches fire.
If the money was actually concerned with the scene it might bolster the GSL prize pool, or various other things. SC2 as a big legacy eSport is just there to give some legitimacy and old-school kudos to the event and will be excised once it’s up and running
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I don't think we need to talk about the motivation this thing exists, it is clearly sportswashing and has nothing to do with being concerned about the SC2 scene. That's a very different topic and I'm also not particularly happy to have this kind of thing in Riyad
But I still think ESL should get some flak for the way this all went down. Changing the format halfway through the season, leaving it open even longer how the qualification will even work etc. is just not that great of a look. Of course this probably has to do with Gamers8 and waiting to look how that worked out, but still
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 05:14 Balnazza wrote:
I don't think we need to talk about the motivation this thing exists, it is clearly sportswashing and has nothing to do with being concerned about the SC2 scene. That's a very different topic and I'm also not particularly happy to have this kind of thing in Riyad
But I still think ESL should get some flak for the way this all went down. Changing the format halfway through the season, leaving it open even longer how the qualification will even work etc. is just not that great of a look. Of course this probably has to do with Gamers8 and waiting to look how that worked out, but still
Yeah I mean the former will have a lot of divergent opinion along various paths. Of which I have a rather strong feeling on personally, but I concede counter-arguments have some validity.
The latter feels just an outright error that there’s little justification for.
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I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb.
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On February 03 2024 04:58 WombaT wrote:
SC2 is just a title dangled to give this push some initial legitimacy and will be dropped entirely after an edition or two if it catches fire.
If the money was actually concerned with the scene it might bolster the GSL prize pool, or various other things. SC2 as a big legacy eSport is just there to give some legitimacy and old-school kudos to the event and will be excised once it’s up and running
I don't think the Saudis care at all about the general health of the SC2 scene, but I also am not sure SC2 will immediately be on the chopping block if ESWC takes off. 1 million USD is a massive prize pool for SC2, but it's almost a rounding error to the organizers (they also have to pay for production costs for a few days.) That combined with the fact that the ESWC is for sports washing, not profit, I can see SC2 remaining out of pure indifference.
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On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb.
That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be.
What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify.
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I don't feel comfortable watching any of this, knowing where the money comes from.
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On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify.
If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 05:51 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I don't feel comfortable watching any of this, knowing where the money comes from.
*Edit* Double post
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 05:51 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I don't feel comfortable watching any of this, knowing where the money comes from.
You and me both sir!
I’m perfectly happy with my beloved game dwindling over time, such things happen.
Beats being kept alive as part of a sportswashing propaganda exercise anyway.
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I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2.
literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line."
since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job 
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job
A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you.
I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here.
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On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here.
One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire.
I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there.
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Love me some sportswashing.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 07:36 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here. One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire. I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there.
I’d rather continue to complain in every tangentially related topic, personally, but hey we’re all different
If someone deigns to make a specific thread I’ll contain it within those confines but in the interim I’ll give my half a dollar elsewhere 
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On February 03 2024 05:52 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify. If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit.
Why does Serral being good mean guys like Heromarine/spirit/Skillous/Lambo should be guaranteed to qualify over Classic/Ragnarok/Gumiho/Creator/DRG? While I'd favor the Koreans the EU players would still be capable of qualifying with an upset in an open qualifier.
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I'm going to watch the tournament and enjoy it and I don't care where the money came from. No one's asking for my devotion and support to Saudi royalty. They want to support the same game I do? Great. Better than spending it on things that could hurt people.
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On February 03 2024 09:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 07:36 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here. One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire. I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there. I’d rather continue to complain in every tangentially related topic, personally, but hey we’re all different If someone deigns to make a specific thread I’ll contain it within those confines but in the interim I’ll give my half a dollar elsewhere
it is probably a "Games Industry" topic and belongs there.
https://tl.net/forum/general/540389-the-games-industry-and-atvi
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On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job
Weird hill to die on... The parallels to child labour don't really track, because there is simply a lack of options (and don't tell me that I could just NOT buy a smartphone/computer)
But the main issue with your argument is not where the money comes from, but what the money does: This is a strategy by many authoritarian governments to polish the image in the world and distract from the atrocities committed there.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 10:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 09:52 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:36 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here. One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire. I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there. I’d rather continue to complain in every tangentially related topic, personally, but hey we’re all different If someone deigns to make a specific thread I’ll contain it within those confines but in the interim I’ll give my half a dollar elsewhere it is probably a "Games Industry" topic and belongs there. https://tl.net/forum/general/540389-the-games-industry-and-atvi
Yeah perhaps, although that thread is mostly about nuts and bolts business dealings. Probably the best thread without a standalone new one yeah
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Top 4 from Katowice and Dreamhack Dallas is not right. Should be top 2 at most. What's the point of grinding for EPT points if making top 4 in a tournament is all you need? We shouldn't have open qualifiers either if it's supposed to be the biggest tournament of the year.
As for the prize pool, happy that the players will get one final chance at taking home a big cheque. I don't care whether the money is from Saudi Arabia or not. Every country has committed war crimes presently or in the past and this whole "Saudi Arabia bad" narrative needs to stop.
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On February 03 2024 10:24 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 05:52 Balnazza wrote:On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify. If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit. Why does Serral being good mean guys like Heromarine/spirit/Skillous/Lambo should be guaranteed to qualify over Classic/Ragnarok/Gumiho/Creator/DRG? While I'd favor the Koreans the EU players would still be capable of qualifying with an upset in an open qualifier.
There is no 100% correct solution. It is a matter of taste. I personally always liked if a player somewhat has a benefit from getting multiple slots - in this case, strengthening his region. Which of course is a very marginal benefits. It also would give more meaning to the different regional rankings - and frankly, after a year and a half of grinding it shouldn't come down to some open qualifiers to decide more and more slots (worst case scenario we are talking about what, six slots more or something like that?)
On February 03 2024 11:19 geokilla wrote:
As for the prize pool, happy that the players will get one final chance at taking home a big cheque. I don't care whether the money is from Saudi Arabia or not. Every country has committed war crimes presently or in the past and this whole "Saudi Arabia bad" narrative needs to stop.
That's not even remotely what this is about. If you seriously think Saudi Arabia is just another country...just say "I don't care much about politics and don't know anything about it, I just want to enjoy some Starcraft". That is a completly justifiable stand. Take morality out of it instead of trying a very weird attempt of moral high-grounding...
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 03 2024 11:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 10:24 JJH777 wrote:On February 03 2024 05:52 Balnazza wrote:On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify. If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit. Why does Serral being good mean guys like Heromarine/spirit/Skillous/Lambo should be guaranteed to qualify over Classic/Ragnarok/Gumiho/Creator/DRG? While I'd favor the Koreans the EU players would still be capable of qualifying with an upset in an open qualifier. There is no 100% correct solution. It is a matter of taste. I personally always liked if a player somewhat has a benefit from getting multiple slots - in this case, strengthening his region. Which of course is a very marginal benefits. It also would give more meaning to the different regional rankings - and frankly, after a year and a half of grinding it shouldn't come down to some open qualifiers to decide more and more slots (worst case scenario we are talking about what, six slots more or something like that?) Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 11:19 geokilla wrote:
As for the prize pool, happy that the players will get one final chance at taking home a big cheque. I don't care whether the money is from Saudi Arabia or not. Every country has committed war crimes presently or in the past and this whole "Saudi Arabia bad" narrative needs to stop. That's not even remotely what this is about. If you seriously think Saudi Arabia is just another country...just say "I don't care much about politics and don't know anything about it, I just want to enjoy some Starcraft". That is a completly justifiable stand. Take morality out of it instead of trying a very weird attempt of moral high-grounding...
I’m unsure of what the best option is personally, I’m only certain that I think qualifying metrics should be transparently communicated ahead of time.
The GSL giving as many direct spots as Europe, or NA/elsewhere combined is also a bit off IMO. Especially when the Korean scene is already struggling, but that’s just me nitpicking I don’t think it’s particularly egregious.
And yes also agreed. It’s a nakedly political, image-improving process, at the behest of a monarchical ruling class of a nation state. If one wants to sidestep the discussion entirely fair enough, but less of the whataboutery would be nice.
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
And, separate from that they don’t care about the game, they want to dangle some flashy lights so we go all deer in the headlights and forget there’s a giant truck bearing down.
If they cared about the game they’d support it outside their own pet project, but, as they don’t care about the game they don’t. I’m not going to be a cheerleader for the equivalent of pocket change being thrown for a singular tournament.
As a great football fan, of the age and liquidity to actually go to a World Cup, oh great it’s in the hotbed of football that is Qatar, and yay the one after next is in Saudi Arabia. Great, I am beside myself with excitement to make those particular pilgrimages.
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I can't wrap my head around people who value their entertainment above not supporting a government that tortured and murdered a journalist in an embassy in another country, then chopped up his body into little pieces with a bone saw to hide the evidence.
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On February 03 2024 05:51 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I don't feel comfortable watching any of this, knowing where the money comes from.
If you think THIS company is bad, wait until you find out about... all of them!
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Kinda sad IEM Katowice was only the Blizzcon-level world championship for 3 years 2021-2023, and one of those years it was "devalued" as an online tournament due to COVID. Funnily enough during those 3 years the winners were all different foreigners.
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Personally, I think of that bad money / good money thing quite relaxed.
They can "buy" a gorgeous prize pool with their money, I don't care too much, where all the bucks come from. Or, as someone said above "better they spend it for Starcraft Tournament than for something, that can hurt people".
What's VERY important to me is, that they can't buy my political opinion or my ethics/moral feeling.
For me, this perspective helps a lot trying not to be a hypocrite and splitting countries in evil or good but instead make distinctions in the different aspects of countries like authoritarian/democratic, peaceful/bellicose, liberal/oppressive,racist/tolerant etc.
I salute the engagement for Starcraft/E-Sports, I don't salute the Saudi royalty.
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on the other topic... 
IMHO the qualification system is quite fair. We (or at least I) want to see the best players compete for World Championship, regardless of their region.
Thus ANY global champion earns a spot. The top finalists of global top tier tournaments should get seeded as well.
Then letting a small number of players in by a regional factor is somewhat ok, otherwise it would be (almost) completely EU and KOR players, that's not too global...
But all the rest should qualify via global standings and/or open qualifier
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On February 03 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
Blizzard can easily move to Canada. M$ was fully prepared to leave Washington for Vancouver until the US government backed down. Blizzard chooses to be there. American athletes do this crap all the time. They make it sound like the US is horrible and then inform the entire league they won't show up if sent to Toronto, Canada. If the US were really that bad they would not be there.
Bottom line is Canada's best talent all heads south because the US is better than Canada.
So it isn't just "Blizzard" deciding to stay in the USA its top software craftsmen like Canadian David Kim deciding to make the USA their home.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 04 2024 03:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
Blizzard can easily move to Canada. M$ was fully prepared to leave Washington for Vancouver until the US government backed down. Blizzard chooses to be there. American athletes do this crap all the time. They make it sound like the US is horrible and then inform the entire league they won't show up if sent to Toronto, Canada. If the US were really that bad they would not be there. Bottom line is Canada's best talent all heads south because the US is better than Canada. So it isn't just "Blizzard" deciding to stay in the USA its top software craftsmen like Canadian David Kim deciding to make the USA their home.
This has less than nothing to do with what I posted though.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 04 2024 02:54 Tommy131313 wrote:
Personally, I think of that bad money / good money thing quite relaxed.
They can "buy" a gorgeous prize pool with their money, I don't care too much, where all the bucks come from. Or, as someone said above "better they spend it for Starcraft Tournament than for something, that can hurt people".
What's VERY important to me is, that they can't buy my political opinion or my ethics/moral feeling.
For me, this perspective helps a lot trying not to be a hypocrite and splitting countries in evil or good but instead make distinctions in the different aspects of countries like authoritarian/democratic, peaceful/bellicose, liberal/oppressive,racist/tolerant etc.
I salute the engagement for Starcraft/E-Sports, I don't salute the Saudi royalty.
Yes that’s a reasonable set of distinctions to make, although personally I’m not sure if those two components can be kept fully separate in all scenarios.
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On February 04 2024 03:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 03:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 03 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
Blizzard can easily move to Canada. M$ was fully prepared to leave Washington for Vancouver until the US government backed down. Blizzard chooses to be there. American athletes do this crap all the time. They make it sound like the US is horrible and then inform the entire league they won't show up if sent to Toronto, Canada. If the US were really that bad they would not be there. Bottom line is Canada's best talent all heads south because the US is better than Canada. So it isn't just "Blizzard" deciding to stay in the USA its top software craftsmen like Canadian David Kim deciding to make the USA their home. This has less than nothing to do with what I posted though.
you gave Blizzard an excuse. I'm not doing so. They choose to ply their trade in the USA. They could easily move to a country with stronger labour laws. Perhaps in a different country Janette Whipper doesn't get fired and we find out what really happened.
I don't care how many rainbow buttons the employees wear at Blizzcon... their actions speak louder than their red aids ribbons.
By setting up and remaining in the USA they are endorsing its foriegn policy.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 04 2024 03:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 03:13 WombaT wrote:On February 04 2024 03:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 03 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
Blizzard can easily move to Canada. M$ was fully prepared to leave Washington for Vancouver until the US government backed down. Blizzard chooses to be there. American athletes do this crap all the time. They make it sound like the US is horrible and then inform the entire league they won't show up if sent to Toronto, Canada. If the US were really that bad they would not be there. Bottom line is Canada's best talent all heads south because the US is better than Canada. So it isn't just "Blizzard" deciding to stay in the USA its top software craftsmen like Canadian David Kim deciding to make the USA their home. This has less than nothing to do with what I posted though. you gave Blizzard an excuse. I'm not doing so. They choose to ply their trade in the USA. They could easily move to a country with stronger labour laws. Perhaps in a different country Janette Whipper doesn't get fired and we find out what really happened. I don't care how many rainbow buttons the employees wear at Blizzcon... their actions speak louder than their red aids ribbons. By setting up and remaining in the USA they are endorsing its foriegn policy.
What excuse? Observing that it’s not an arm of a nation-state? :S
I know you do enjoy any excuse to do your ‘Hey kids sit down and Uncle Jimmy will tell you how the world works!’ shtick, but can you at least tether it vaguely to the points people are making instead of apropos of nothing?
There is an admirable simplicity in your ‘if you don’t like it, just move’ solution to most of life’s problem, be it in the workplace, or wider political disagreement with your nation. Now as an addendum to that any person or organisation that doesn’t just move tacitly supports everything done by the state they reside, which is frankly ludicrous.
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On February 04 2024 01:39 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I can't wrap my head around people who value their entertainment above not supporting a government that tortured and murdered a journalist in an embassy in another country, then chopped up his body into little pieces with a bone saw to hide the evidence.
And this is the only country that does something terrible like that?
What about the US bombing innocent civilians with drones, or supporting Israel's inhumane genocide against Palestine? (Regardless of where you stand on Palestine vs Israel, war crimes are being committed and supported).
Or what about planned false flag attacks against its own civilians that were eventually discovered and confirmed? (The discovered ones didn't happen, but calls into question other weird events that possibly may also have been false flag attacks in retrospect?)
Or what about assassinating a high ranking military official, with no legit evidence that that country was planning to commit a terrorist attack or wage war on the US, when no state of war was declared?
Or invading another country based on "strong evidence of weapons of mass destruction", and it ends up being nothing and lots of people are killed for nothing?
Or in general undermining the democracy of other countries by usurping its governments to install a puppet?
Yeah the US and many other countries do tons of this stuff and gets away with it. And that's just one country that I'm familiar with, I'm not trying to single out the US.
It's not so easy to decide where to set the bar. To me, war crimes are war crimes. Some war crimes are worse than others, but they're all terrible and horrible. It's completely reasonable to me why some people feel like singling out just Saudi Arabia as the only country whose esports tournaments should be boycotted is weird.
If you wanna single out this 1 incident of this journalist being tortured, that's fine with me, but there's so many different ways people weigh things that have merit. (Lives of many being lost vs lives of few being tortured, etc.)
Not saying you can't boycott this tournament if you want to. But it's weird to me finding it weird that others don't draw the bar the same place you decide to. It's even arguable whether giving them extra views really "supports" them or not in any meaningful way. The money is already being thrown into the scene, IMO just take the money and keep whatever original opinion you have of the country. I think taking a million dollars for poor progamers is pretty morally justified if all it does is give them some extra views.
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I am with you that corruption and crime, by any government, should be criticised. The reason we are talking about Saudi Arabia right now is that this particular tournament is funded and organised by the government of Saudia Arabia.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 04 2024 05:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 01:39 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I can't wrap my head around people who value their entertainment above not supporting a government that tortured and murdered a journalist in an embassy in another country, then chopped up his body into little pieces with a bone saw to hide the evidence. And this is the only country that does something terrible like that? What about the US bombing innocent civilians with drones, or supporting Israel's inhumane genocide against Palestine? (Regardless of where you stand on Palestine vs Israel, war crimes are being committed and supported). Or what about planned false flag attacks against its own civilians that were eventually discovered and confirmed? (The discovered ones didn't happen, but calls into question other weird events that possibly may also have been false flag attacks in retrospect?) Or what about assassinating a high ranking military official, with no legit evidence that that country was planning to commit a terrorist attack or wage war on the US, when no state of war was declared? Or invading another country based on "strong evidence of weapons of mass destruction", and it ends up being nothing and lots of people are killed for nothing? Or in general undermining the democracy of other countries by usurping its governments to install a puppet? Yeah the US and many other countries do tons of this stuff and gets away with it. And that's just one country that I'm familiar with, I'm not trying to single out the US. It's not so easy to decide where to set the bar. To me, war crimes are war crimes. Some war crimes are worse than others, but they're all terrible and horrible. It's completely reasonable to me why some people feel like singling out just Saudi Arabia as the only country whose esports tournaments should be boycotted is weird. If you wanna single out this 1 incident of this journalist being tortured, that's fine with me, but there's so many different ways people weigh things that have merit. (Lives of many being lost vs lives of few being tortured, etc.) Not saying you can't boycott this tournament if you want to. But it's weird to me finding it weird that others don't draw the bar the same place you decide to. It's even arguable whether giving them extra views really "supports" them or not. The money is already being thrown into the scene, IMO just take the money and keep whatever original opinion you have of the country.
It’s not because other countries don’t have these issues, but that individuals in those countries doing w/e it is may have nothing to do with those actions, or actively oppose them. Whereas you can’t really draw a divide between people and state if it is very much the latter who is orchestrating these various Saudi expansions into territory like eSports.
I believe the US military has been sponsoring or in some way getting involved in some eSports, can’t remember specifics so don’t quote me, but my brain does recall something. Not in favour of that either.
If anyone thinks some of us aren’t critical of other nations, I’d suggest browsing a page of the various politics pages, trust me the US doesn’t get off lightly :p
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France12886 Posts
I mean, their sportwashing activity is kind of having a Barbra Streisand effect imo. Most people wouldn’t bother to look at what Saudi Arabia is doing, but now that they give money for sport and esports a lot more people know about the human rights issues etc of Saudi Arabia.
So not only do they give some money to our fragile scene, it’s kind of a win - win because even people vehemently against the state can talk about it to people that may not know
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On February 04 2024 05:51 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 05:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 04 2024 01:39 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I can't wrap my head around people who value their entertainment above not supporting a government that tortured and murdered a journalist in an embassy in another country, then chopped up his body into little pieces with a bone saw to hide the evidence. And this is the only country that does something terrible like that? What about the US bombing innocent civilians with drones, or supporting Israel's inhumane genocide against Palestine? (Regardless of where you stand on Palestine vs Israel, war crimes are being committed and supported). Or what about planned false flag attacks against its own civilians that were eventually discovered and confirmed? (The discovered ones didn't happen, but calls into question other weird events that possibly may also have been false flag attacks in retrospect?) Or what about assassinating a high ranking military official, with no legit evidence that that country was planning to commit a terrorist attack or wage war on the US, when no state of war was declared? Or invading another country based on "strong evidence of weapons of mass destruction", and it ends up being nothing and lots of people are killed for nothing? Or in general undermining the democracy of other countries by usurping its governments to install a puppet? Yeah the US and many other countries do tons of this stuff and gets away with it. And that's just one country that I'm familiar with, I'm not trying to single out the US. It's not so easy to decide where to set the bar. To me, war crimes are war crimes. Some war crimes are worse than others, but they're all terrible and horrible. It's completely reasonable to me why some people feel like singling out just Saudi Arabia as the only country whose esports tournaments should be boycotted is weird. If you wanna single out this 1 incident of this journalist being tortured, that's fine with me, but there's so many different ways people weigh things that have merit. (Lives of many being lost vs lives of few being tortured, etc.) Not saying you can't boycott this tournament if you want to. But it's weird to me finding it weird that others don't draw the bar the same place you decide to. It's even arguable whether giving them extra views really "supports" them or not. The money is already being thrown into the scene, IMO just take the money and keep whatever original opinion you have of the country. It’s not because other countries don’t have these issues, but that individuals in those countries doing w/e it is may have nothing to do with those actions, or actively oppose them. Whereas you can’t really draw a divide between people and state if it is very much the latter who is orchestrating these various Saudi expansions into territory like eSports. I believe the US military has been sponsoring or in some way getting involved in some eSports, can’t remember specifics so don’t quote me, but my brain does recall something. Not in favour of that either. If anyone thinks some of us aren’t critical of other nations, I’d suggest browsing a page of the various politics pages, trust me the US doesn’t get off lightly :p
The US airforce is an official partner of ESL, or at least was for a time. Haven't watched enough recently so I'm not up to date.
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On February 04 2024 03:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
Blizzard can easily move to Canada. M$ was fully prepared to leave Washington for Vancouver until the US government backed down. Blizzard chooses to be there. American athletes do this crap all the time. They make it sound like the US is horrible and then inform the entire league they won't show up if sent to Toronto, Canada. If the US were really that bad they would not be there. Bottom line is Canada's best talent all heads south because the US is better than Canada. So it isn't just "Blizzard" deciding to stay in the USA its top software craftsmen like Canadian David Kim deciding to make the USA their home.
We're not that good either. Have you seen how we're scamming "international students" for the past few years? Don't forget about the Chinese Head Tax and how we literally built the CPR with blood, sweat, and tears.
I also find it silly how you guys are up in arms about Saudi Arabia but are OK with what's happening in Palestine and Ukraine. In my opinion, what's happening in Palestine is far worse than what happened to Jamal Khashoggi.
On February 04 2024 06:42 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 05:51 WombaT wrote:On February 04 2024 05:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 04 2024 01:39 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I can't wrap my head around people who value their entertainment above not supporting a government that tortured and murdered a journalist in an embassy in another country, then chopped up his body into little pieces with a bone saw to hide the evidence. And this is the only country that does something terrible like that? What about the US bombing innocent civilians with drones, or supporting Israel's inhumane genocide against Palestine? (Regardless of where you stand on Palestine vs Israel, war crimes are being committed and supported). Or what about planned false flag attacks against its own civilians that were eventually discovered and confirmed? (The discovered ones didn't happen, but calls into question other weird events that possibly may also have been false flag attacks in retrospect?) Or what about assassinating a high ranking military official, with no legit evidence that that country was planning to commit a terrorist attack or wage war on the US, when no state of war was declared? Or invading another country based on "strong evidence of weapons of mass destruction", and it ends up being nothing and lots of people are killed for nothing? Or in general undermining the democracy of other countries by usurping its governments to install a puppet? Yeah the US and many other countries do tons of this stuff and gets away with it. And that's just one country that I'm familiar with, I'm not trying to single out the US. It's not so easy to decide where to set the bar. To me, war crimes are war crimes. Some war crimes are worse than others, but they're all terrible and horrible. It's completely reasonable to me why some people feel like singling out just Saudi Arabia as the only country whose esports tournaments should be boycotted is weird. If you wanna single out this 1 incident of this journalist being tortured, that's fine with me, but there's so many different ways people weigh things that have merit. (Lives of many being lost vs lives of few being tortured, etc.) Not saying you can't boycott this tournament if you want to. But it's weird to me finding it weird that others don't draw the bar the same place you decide to. It's even arguable whether giving them extra views really "supports" them or not. The money is already being thrown into the scene, IMO just take the money and keep whatever original opinion you have of the country. It’s not because other countries don’t have these issues, but that individuals in those countries doing w/e it is may have nothing to do with those actions, or actively oppose them. Whereas you can’t really draw a divide between people and state if it is very much the latter who is orchestrating these various Saudi expansions into territory like eSports. I believe the US military has been sponsoring or in some way getting involved in some eSports, can’t remember specifics so don’t quote me, but my brain does recall something. Not in favour of that either. If anyone thinks some of us aren’t critical of other nations, I’d suggest browsing a page of the various politics pages, trust me the US doesn’t get off lightly :p The US airforce is an official partner of ESL, or at least was for a time. Haven't watched enough recently so I'm not up to date.
They are still partnered with ESL. Has been for the past few years.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 04 2024 06:13 Poopi wrote:
I mean, their sportwashing activity is kind of having a Barbra Streisand effect imo. Most people wouldn’t bother to look at what Saudi Arabia is doing, but now that they give money for sport and esports a lot more people know about the human rights issues etc of Saudi Arabia.
So not only do they give some money to our fragile scene, it’s kind of a win - win because even people vehemently against the state can talk about it to people that may not know
Aye, it’s the kind of thing I’d actually like to see some cold numbers on, I’m quite curious what that breakdown looks like.
But yeah it is very much genuinely the proverbial double-edged sword as you said, although I suppose only if sufficient people do the legwork, and subsequent people ride that momentum.
I mean case in point Amnesty International did plenty of work cataloguing human rights in Qatar, as they always do in various but it was really only with Qatar being (fucking ridiculously IMO) awarded a World Cup that saw more and more people paying attention.
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On February 04 2024 07:47 geokilla wrote:
I also find it silly how you guys are up in arms about Saudi Arabia but are OK with what's happening in Palestine and Ukraine. In my opinion, what's happening in Palestine is far worse than what happened to Jamal Khashoggi.
Who is OK with what's happening in Ukraine? Russia has been pretty well boycotted and there would (rightfully) be an insane outrage if the world cup of sc2 was held in Russia.
Unless ofc you're a tankie that thinks NATO and nazis caused Russia to have to invade to protect poor Russians or smth...
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 04 2024 07:47 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 03:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 03 2024 13:44 WombaT wrote:
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
Blizzard can easily move to Canada. M$ was fully prepared to leave Washington for Vancouver until the US government backed down. Blizzard chooses to be there. American athletes do this crap all the time. They make it sound like the US is horrible and then inform the entire league they won't show up if sent to Toronto, Canada. If the US were really that bad they would not be there. Bottom line is Canada's best talent all heads south because the US is better than Canada. So it isn't just "Blizzard" deciding to stay in the USA its top software craftsmen like Canadian David Kim deciding to make the USA their home. We're not that good either. Have you seen how we're scamming "international students" for the past few years? Don't forget about the Chinese Head Tax and how we literally built the CPR with blood, sweat, and tears. I also find it silly how you guys are up in arms about Saudi Arabia but are OK with what's happening in Palestine and Ukraine. In my opinion, what's happening in Palestine is far worse than what happened to Jamal Khashoggi.Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 06:42 Durnuu wrote:On February 04 2024 05:51 WombaT wrote:On February 04 2024 05:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 04 2024 01:39 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I can't wrap my head around people who value their entertainment above not supporting a government that tortured and murdered a journalist in an embassy in another country, then chopped up his body into little pieces with a bone saw to hide the evidence. And this is the only country that does something terrible like that? What about the US bombing innocent civilians with drones, or supporting Israel's inhumane genocide against Palestine? (Regardless of where you stand on Palestine vs Israel, war crimes are being committed and supported). Or what about planned false flag attacks against its own civilians that were eventually discovered and confirmed? (The discovered ones didn't happen, but calls into question other weird events that possibly may also have been false flag attacks in retrospect?) Or what about assassinating a high ranking military official, with no legit evidence that that country was planning to commit a terrorist attack or wage war on the US, when no state of war was declared? Or invading another country based on "strong evidence of weapons of mass destruction", and it ends up being nothing and lots of people are killed for nothing? Or in general undermining the democracy of other countries by usurping its governments to install a puppet? Yeah the US and many other countries do tons of this stuff and gets away with it. And that's just one country that I'm familiar with, I'm not trying to single out the US. It's not so easy to decide where to set the bar. To me, war crimes are war crimes. Some war crimes are worse than others, but they're all terrible and horrible. It's completely reasonable to me why some people feel like singling out just Saudi Arabia as the only country whose esports tournaments should be boycotted is weird. If you wanna single out this 1 incident of this journalist being tortured, that's fine with me, but there's so many different ways people weigh things that have merit. (Lives of many being lost vs lives of few being tortured, etc.) Not saying you can't boycott this tournament if you want to. But it's weird to me finding it weird that others don't draw the bar the same place you decide to. It's even arguable whether giving them extra views really "supports" them or not. The money is already being thrown into the scene, IMO just take the money and keep whatever original opinion you have of the country. It’s not because other countries don’t have these issues, but that individuals in those countries doing w/e it is may have nothing to do with those actions, or actively oppose them. Whereas you can’t really draw a divide between people and state if it is very much the latter who is orchestrating these various Saudi expansions into territory like eSports. I believe the US military has been sponsoring or in some way getting involved in some eSports, can’t remember specifics so don’t quote me, but my brain does recall something. Not in favour of that either. If anyone thinks some of us aren’t critical of other nations, I’d suggest browsing a page of the various politics pages, trust me the as US doesn’t get off lightly :p The US airforce is an official partner of ESL, or at least was for a time. Haven't watched enough recently so I'm not up to date. They are still partnered with ESL. Has been for the past few years.
Where are you getting that from?
I already invited yourself and other folks to peruse the US Politics thread, or the Israeli/Palestine thread if you feel people aren’t being critical of the players there. Go for it and get back to me ^_^
And again, to be pointed out, again, after I specifically made the point prior. And others did. The Saudi Arabian ruling monarchical class and state is funding this, and other efforts. It’s their baby. It’s completely inextricable from that state.
Imagine if you will David Attenborough. Possibly the only British thing ever that nobody hates, despite being as British at his core as it is possible to be.
Now imagine the British Monarchy, the very idea of monarchy being anathema to many people’s ideals of egalitarianism. Or the British military. And all that fun, fun history of oppression you get from both institutions.
Now imagine David Attenborough via a great-great-great grandson discovered StarCraft, he found it fascinating and he threw up some money to have a big World Championship extravaganza. Hell, he loves it so much he’s fucking casting with Tasteless, it shouldn’t work but godamnit it does.
Now imagine the British monarchy combining with the military to do the same to burnish their image via eSports
Sure they’re both British, not really the same is it though?
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On February 04 2024 07:47 geokilla wrote:
I also find it silly how you guys are up in arms about Saudi Arabia but are OK with what's happening in Palestine and Ukraine. In my opinion, what's happening in Palestine is far worse than what happened to Jamal Khashoggi.
[The U.S. Air Force] are still partnered with ESL. Has been for the past few years.
The IDF is committing genocide in Gaza. Russia is waging an illegal war of aggression against Ukraine.
Neither the IDF nor Russia are funding or organising this particular tournament. If they did, it would be another reason to boycott the tournament for me.
It appears you are right, the USAF seems to be partnered with ESL now. Another reason not to watch their content.
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On February 04 2024 03:05 Tommy131313 wrote:on the other topic... IMHO the qualification system is quite fair. We (or at least I) want to see the best players compete for World Championship, regardless of their region. Thus ANY global champion earns a spot. The top finalists of global top tier tournaments should get seeded as well. Then letting a small number of players in by a regional factor is somewhat ok, otherwise it would be (almost) completely EU and KOR players, that's not too global... But all the rest should qualify via global standings and/or open qualifier
If you truly wanted to see the best of the best of sc2 in a given moment, you would advocate for a open qualifier and not a seeded system.
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On February 04 2024 17:25 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 03:05 Tommy131313 wrote:on the other topic... IMHO the qualification system is quite fair. We (or at least I) want to see the best players compete for World Championship, regardless of their region. Thus ANY global champion earns a spot. The top finalists of global top tier tournaments should get seeded as well. Then letting a small number of players in by a regional factor is somewhat ok, otherwise it would be (almost) completely EU and KOR players, that's not too global... But all the rest should qualify via global standings and/or open qualifier If you truly wanted to see the best of the best of sc2 in a given moment, you would advocate for a open qualifier and not a seeded system.
You can have the majority of the spot for open qualifiers, and still save a few for regional representation. The quality isnt significantly hurt, and u guarantee the "world status"
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On February 04 2024 17:25 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 03:05 Tommy131313 wrote:on the other topic... IMHO the qualification system is quite fair. We (or at least I) want to see the best players compete for World Championship, regardless of their region. Thus ANY global champion earns a spot. The top finalists of global top tier tournaments should get seeded as well. Then letting a small number of players in by a regional factor is somewhat ok, otherwise it would be (almost) completely EU and KOR players, that's not too global... But all the rest should qualify via global standings and/or open qualifier If you truly wanted to see the best of the best of sc2 in a given moment, you would advocate for an open qualifier and not a seeded system.
Most sports I’m aware of do a combination of both, with historical performances granting seeds and qualifications, and open qualifiers to give someone hot a shot.
But, I’m not crazy happy with how this has been done, and how it’s a departure from qualification standards from the last time, and how it’s only been announced halfway (roughly) through a season, retrospectively.
So two ESL Masters (concluded) give solely the Champions a spot. The upcoming tournament gives the top 4 a slot.
It starts to get wonky, if we take a quick look at the Koreans who would have got slots, if those previous ones went with top 4, likes of Dark, Cure, Gumiho.
It’s conceivable that let’s say Byun has a top 4 showing in the next ESL Masters, and a top ranking Korea EPT player doesn’t make top 4 in Kato or that tournament, that the latter takes a Korean slot on points and Byun takes a slot from the ESL Masters. And one of Solar/Cure don’t.
For having the same result as Byun in the exact same tournament(s), now that is just wonky.
The EPT system is borderline pointless when it could have been the baseline, and regionally I don’t think it’s very fairly drawn.
Be it more consistency, a bigger emphasis on EPT points, more open qualification or indeed a combination of the above, there are certainly improvements to be made IMO.
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I would prefer to have a 24 player tournament with some more open qualifier spots (overall maybe 4 or 6) and then 2 to 4 spots more through EPT or something like that as well.
But then again I don't really get what the discussion is all about, even with 18 players at the finals, with the current state of the sc2 scene you can pretty much say, that everyone of importance (every high level player with a somewhat reasonable shot at competing on a high enough level) will qualify, since the scene is not that big that it offers a lot more than 18 players of that calibre anymore.
Sure maybe a SHIN or a Stats or Parting or Bunny/Ryung will miss out, and I like those guys and wish them all the eSports money in the world, but it is not like this "A-" or "B+" Players always qualified in the past.
If at all it got a lot easier in the past few years since the competition dwindled.
And I'm sure the tournament will be, aside from the political shenanigans, a highlight of the year. No matter if there are 18 or 24 players or even more
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On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job
Okay I work for Region Stockholm as a physiotherapist on a hospital, go ahead and trace.
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Yay Starcraft! I hope Serral can attend and be in somewhat of a shape with his pending military service.
This is a year of Starcraft that nobody really could have expected: IEM, ESL Masters, GSLs and now an even bigger tournament.
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Bump
Full post
Gamers8 was 45 million in comparison
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The prizepool for this is actually insane and the fact that the Top 16 teams will get prizemoney really explains why everyone and their mother hires SC2 players right now: Even some points here and there can probably amount to a pretty hefty extra prize.
I will admit: I would love to boycot this or just watch my favorites and be done with it, but the entire concept is so huge and amazing that I will probably give in and watch as much as times allows for the entire competition. Maybe they find another few thousand bucks somewhere to give out for WC3 and AoE 2 aswell...please? :3
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
I disavow any tournament hosted in places that aren't safe for all competitors
edit: And fans
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Yeah 20 million club money is insane! Across 16 teams! Meaning the top teams will get 2-5 millions $ extra. Gotta be worth to make a partnership with Basilisk
I will definitely watch CS2 and SC2 and maybe some Rocket League
They have said they will announce some more and smaller games so don't give up hope
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On April 18 2024 21:14 Cyro wrote:
I disavow any tournament hosted in places that aren't safe for all competitors
I do understand the oil money and human rights take but why wouldn't the competitors be safe?
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IDF is not committing genocide in Palestine, not to say Israel isn't doing anything wrong, Ukraine and Palestine are not remotely comparable.
We should stick discussions to StarCraft
User was warned for this post
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Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites:
Dota2 (5 Mio. $)
Honor of Kings
PUBG Mobile
Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $).
Rainbow Six Siege
APEX Legends
PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $)
Street Fighter 6
Tekken 8
StarCraft 2
Overwatch 2
EA Sports FC 24
Counter-Strike 2
League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $)
They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... 
Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably
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China6329 Posts
HoK is the most popular mobile MOBA in the world from Tencent, Mobile Legends is huge in South America and South East Asia, these inclusions don't surprise me.
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On April 18 2024 21:14 Cyro wrote:
I disavow any tournament hosted in places that aren't safe for all competitors
Saudi Arabia is pretty good at sportswashing, they will make sure that it is save for every competitor. For fans...probably not as much.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
On April 18 2024 21:36 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 21:14 Cyro wrote:
I disavow any tournament hosted in places that aren't safe for all competitors I do understand the oil money and human rights take but why wouldn't the competitors be safe?
It's in Saudi Arabia. The government routinely tortures and kills people (including tourists) for existing while being LGBT+ among other things.
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On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably
Or you know, they're just hella popular. Just because you are in those circles doesn't mean they don't have massive (adult) audiences.
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On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably
Why would LoL only be $1M? Isn't it still the biggest esport in the world?
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On April 18 2024 22:35 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably Or you know, they're just hella popular. Just because you are in those circles doesn't mean they don't have massive (adult) audiences.
Haha yeah I'm just annoyed. They probably have a way bigger playerbase than all PC games.
Like the generation before couldn't cope with "earning money by playing PC games", I cannot cope with "earning money by playing mobile games" :D
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On April 18 2024 22:48 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably Why would LoL only be $1M? Isn't it still the biggest esport in the world?
These are the numbers I came across. Will have to wait for official numbers to really know. I mean Rainbox Six above Counterstrike and LoL does seem strange
https://www.gameswirtschaft.de/events/esports-world-cup-2024-saudi-arabien-preisgeld/ (Source German)
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On April 18 2024 23:03 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 22:48 Pandain wrote:On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably Why would LoL only be $1M? Isn't it still the biggest esport in the world? These are the numbers I came across. Will have to wait for official numbers to really know. I mean Rainbox Six above Counterstrike and LoL does seem strange https://www.gameswirtschaft.de/events/esports-world-cup-2024-saudi-arabien-preisgeld/ (Source German)
I do remember some tweet or source saying the SC2 prize pool will be $1 million (advertised as the biggest prize pool for SC2 so far) so that's probably accurate.
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On April 18 2024 22:48 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably Why would LoL only be $1M? Isn't it still the biggest esport in the world?
League of Legends will mostly be a "showmatch tournament" in some capacity. Riot actually needed a fair amount of time until they even allowed League-participation in the EWC. Of course they don't want a tournament that could potentially offer more money than MSI or Worlds.
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On April 18 2024 22:48 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably Why would LoL only be $1M? Isn't it still the biggest esport in the world?
Same question with CS2..
LoL, DotA 2 and Counter-Strike 2 are three most popular e-sport games but only one of them is getting a 5 mil tournament while two of them get smaller prize pools than.. Rainbow Six Siege and.. PUBG Battlegrounds?
Bizarre. Makes zero sense.
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United States33404 Posts
On April 19 2024 02:32 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2024 22:48 Pandain wrote:On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably Why would LoL only be $1M? Isn't it still the biggest esport in the world? Same question with CS2.. LoL, DotA 2 and Counter-Strike 2 are three most popular e-sport games but only one of them is getting a 5 mil tournament while two of them get smaller prize pools than.. Rainbow Six Siege and.. PUBG Battlegrounds? Bizarre. Makes zero sense.
I think the post immediately above yours is pretty reasonable speculation 
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On April 18 2024 21:14 Cyro wrote:
I disavow any tournament hosted in places that aren't safe for all competitors
edit: And fans
I applaud your integrity, and I will follow suit.
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On April 19 2024 02:49 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2024 02:32 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On April 18 2024 22:48 Pandain wrote:On April 18 2024 21:42 Harris1st wrote:Guessed price money estimates from gaming websites: Dota2 (5 Mio. $) Honor of Kings PUBG Mobile Mobile Legends (each 3 Mio. $). Rainbow Six Siege APEX Legends PUBG Battlegrounds (each 2 Mio. $) Street Fighter 6 Tekken 8 StarCraft 2 Overwatch 2 EA Sports FC 24 Counter-Strike 2 League of Legends (each 1 Mio. $) They really go for the young generations with all these worthless mobile games.... Easier to manipulate for sportswashing probably Why would LoL only be $1M? Isn't it still the biggest esport in the world? Same question with CS2.. LoL, DotA 2 and Counter-Strike 2 are three most popular e-sport games but only one of them is getting a 5 mil tournament while two of them get smaller prize pools than.. Rainbow Six Siege and.. PUBG Battlegrounds? Bizarre. Makes zero sense. I think the post immediately above yours is pretty reasonable speculation
Oh.. yeah, I guess. But that's only for LoL not for Counter-Strike 2.
The snub is crazy.
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Riot doing Riot things again lol.
Fits the vibe of them rejecting being at any tournaments that Dota2/SC2 was at when it was on the rise (forget if it was both games or just Dota2).
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Chad Riot doesn't want to deal with Saudi Arabia
Although with their treatment of women they'd probably get along just fine
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On April 19 2024 05:38 Durnuu wrote:
Chad Riot doesn't want to deal with Saudi Arabia
Although with their treatment of women they'd probably get along just fine
From that perspective, there probably should be more Blizzard games in SA.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
On April 19 2024 05:38 Durnuu wrote:
Chad Riot doesn't want to deal with Saudi Arabia
Although with their treatment of women they'd probably get along just fine
Chad Riot sounds like it should be a crustpunk band
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EPT
