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On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 02:42 Nasigil wrote:
The tournament is small, but looking at the actual players he defeated along the way, it's one hell of the run. The top 4 Korean Terran in Maru, Byun, Cure and Gumiho, the best Korean Zerg in Dark, one of the best online Protoss in MaxPax. He went 20-3 on maps against some of the best players in the world.
One of the biggest arguments for Serral's GOAT claim is his domination over his peers. Aside of Rogue which has an equal h2h record with Serral, he holds a positive h2h record against literally every single top player in his era, and the ratio is mostly very one sided. You can talk about GSL all day but all those GSL players always get destroyed by Serral when they meet on international stage. I mean, he got taken out of the world championship by a zerg that didn’t manage to qualify for this season of GSL. Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever, although it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again
I mean...some of the best teams and players in the world across sports sometimes have losing records against much weaker teams/players. It just happens. Pretty sure if Maru had the choice to always lose against either Serral or Solar, he would pick Solar 10 out of 10 times
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Amazing performance by Serral. In this tournament alone, he beat the current GSL champion 5-0, cumulatively (Maru), the current GSL runner-up 3-1 (Dark), and the other current top 4 GSL players 4-1 and 2-0 (Cure and Gumiho, respectively).
On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever
No, it does not. No zerg other than Serral, not even Reynor, and still less any one of the GSL zergs or the other top EU zergs, displays a level of dominance against terran and protoss even remotely close to that of Serral.
On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money
You cannot seriously believe that the reason why no other zerg player, not even Reynor, is as consistent as Serral is that they "only bother when there are huge sums of money". What would that even mean? In the current state of the game, Master's Coliseum is one of the largest tournaments of the year, and virtually every S-tier player did, in fact, play in it. Furthermore, please tell me, who, besides Reynor, are those other zerg "players like Reynor", who could play like Serral if only they bothered? How many of them did win even a single major tournament this year?
On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again
Serral's performance in the last WTL season was one of if not the single best performance any player has ever delivered in the history of WTL Code S. It's abstruse to attempt to twist this into an argument against him. He went 30-4 overall. And on the final day, where, according to you, "he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win", he all-killed Abydos, the third-strongest team in WTL Code S, before proceeding to 2-0 Maru. Then, after going 9-0 in maps, he lost a single ZvZ.
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On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 02:42 Nasigil wrote:
The tournament is small, but looking at the actual players he defeated along the way, it's one hell of the run. The top 4 Korean Terran in Maru, Byun, Cure and Gumiho, the best Korean Zerg in Dark, one of the best online Protoss in MaxPax. He went 20-3 on maps against some of the best players in the world.
One of the biggest arguments for Serral's GOAT claim is his domination over his peers. Aside of Rogue which has an equal h2h record with Serral, he holds a positive h2h record against literally every single top player in his era, and the ratio is mostly very one sided. You can talk about GSL all day but all those GSL players always get destroyed by Serral when they meet on international stage. I mean, he got taken out of the world championship by a zerg that didn’t manage to qualify for this season of GSL. Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever, although it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again
Lol now you are just talking out of your arse and you know it
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Northern Ireland25894 Posts
On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 02:42 Nasigil wrote:
The tournament is small, but looking at the actual players he defeated along the way, it's one hell of the run. The top 4 Korean Terran in Maru, Byun, Cure and Gumiho, the best Korean Zerg in Dark, one of the best online Protoss in MaxPax. He went 20-3 on maps against some of the best players in the world.
One of the biggest arguments for Serral's GOAT claim is his domination over his peers. Aside of Rogue which has an equal h2h record with Serral, he holds a positive h2h record against literally every single top player in his era, and the ratio is mostly very one sided. You can talk about GSL all day but all those GSL players always get destroyed by Serral when they meet on international stage. I mean, he got taken out of the world championship by a zerg that didn’t manage to qualify for this season of GSL. Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever, although it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again
Solar is only notorious for early GSL exits because he’s quite good, it wouldn’t be notable otherwise.
And Serral generally smacks him around anyway, this post really feels a super stretch. Serral is carried by Z OP but others aren’t close to as dominant because they’re not trying most of the time? Come on dude
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France12904 Posts
On September 19 2023 18:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:On September 19 2023 02:42 Nasigil wrote:
The tournament is small, but looking at the actual players he defeated along the way, it's one hell of the run. The top 4 Korean Terran in Maru, Byun, Cure and Gumiho, the best Korean Zerg in Dark, one of the best online Protoss in MaxPax. He went 20-3 on maps against some of the best players in the world.
One of the biggest arguments for Serral's GOAT claim is his domination over his peers. Aside of Rogue which has an equal h2h record with Serral, he holds a positive h2h record against literally every single top player in his era, and the ratio is mostly very one sided. You can talk about GSL all day but all those GSL players always get destroyed by Serral when they meet on international stage. I mean, he got taken out of the world championship by a zerg that didn’t manage to qualify for this season of GSL. Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever, although it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again Solar is only notorious for early GSL exits because he’s quite good, it wouldn’t be notable otherwise. And Serral generally smacks him around anyway, this post really feels a super stretch. Serral is carried by Z OP but others aren’t close to as dominant because they’re not trying most of the time? Come on dude
Every zerg is far more dominant in ZvP/ZvT than they are at ZvZ ; plus Reynor is also dominant in the big tournaments (gamers8). Solar is quite good indeed, but that's kinda proof that Serral doesn't always "destroy GSL players in every international tournaments", just the T/P.
It's alright to have different opinions on why he has far better vT/vP than vZ though
Also, Serral isn't carried by Z op, he is still the best zerg in the world by a comfortable margin, but his vT/vP record is a bit inflated by zerg being strong
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Northern Ireland25894 Posts
On September 19 2023 18:09 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 18:02 WombaT wrote:On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:On September 19 2023 02:42 Nasigil wrote:
The tournament is small, but looking at the actual players he defeated along the way, it's one hell of the run. The top 4 Korean Terran in Maru, Byun, Cure and Gumiho, the best Korean Zerg in Dark, one of the best online Protoss in MaxPax. He went 20-3 on maps against some of the best players in the world.
One of the biggest arguments for Serral's GOAT claim is his domination over his peers. Aside of Rogue which has an equal h2h record with Serral, he holds a positive h2h record against literally every single top player in his era, and the ratio is mostly very one sided. You can talk about GSL all day but all those GSL players always get destroyed by Serral when they meet on international stage. I mean, he got taken out of the world championship by a zerg that didn’t manage to qualify for this season of GSL. Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever, although it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again Solar is only notorious for early GSL exits because he’s quite good, it wouldn’t be notable otherwise. And Serral generally smacks him around anyway, this post really feels a super stretch. Serral is carried by Z OP but others aren’t close to as dominant because they’re not trying most of the time? Come on dude Every zerg is far more dominant in ZvP/ZvT than they are at ZvZ ; plus Reynor is also dominant in the big tournaments (gamers8). Solar is quite good indeed, but that's kinda proof that Serral doesn't always "destroy GSL players in every international tournaments", just the T/P. It's alright to have different opinions on why he has far better vT/vP than vZ though Also, Serral isn't carried by Z op, he is still the best zerg in the world by a comfortable margin, but his vT/vP record is a bit inflated by zerg being strong
It’s just quite a volatile matchup, when Serral first went god mode if anything it was his ZvZ that was his strongest. It’s certainly not a pure coin flip either, but it’s not as stable a meta as it’s been at times. When the meta was reliably just roach wars into lurker/viper and that suited Serral he was pretty darn dominant there until Reynor rose up.
Shades of how Maru went from being invincible to merely top tier in TvT when that Raven change happened.
You couldn’t really build a better matchup for how Serral plays the game and what Serral’s strengths are than ZvP right now. Figure out what your opponent is doing and counter it and any trickery.
Hopefully herO can flip his weird trajectory and get back to where he was shortly after returning, and Classic can continue his more predictable gradual improvement, Stats too and we might have something he can do. The mysterious MaxPax keeps getting better.
It’s been a while, really since Trap was at his pomp and Zest was bringing some new build every Katowice that other top Zergs, never mind Serral the final boss of ZvP were having much regular trouble in the matchup.
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On September 19 2023 13:36 Antithesis wrote:Amazing performance by Serral. In this tournament alone, he beat the current GSL champion 5-0, cumulatively (Maru), the current GSL runner-up 3-1 (Dark), and the other current top 4 GSL players 4-1 and 2-0 (Cure and Gumiho, respectively). Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever No, it does not. No zerg other than Serral, not even Reynor, and still less any one of the GSL zergs or the other top EU zergs, displays a level of dominance against terran and protoss even remotely close to that of Serral. Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money You cannot seriously believe that the reason why no other zerg player, not even Reynor, is as consistent as Serral is that they "only bother when there are huge sums of money". What would that even mean? In the current state of the game, Master's Coliseum is one of the largest tournaments of the year, and virtually every S-tier player did, in fact, play in it. Furthermore, please tell me, who, besides Reynor, are those other zerg "players like Reynor", who could play like Serral if only they bothered? How many of them did win even a single major tournament this year? Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again Serral's performance in the last WTL season was one of if not the single best performance any player has ever delivered in the history of WTL Code S. It's abstruse to attempt to twist this into an argument against him. He went 30-4 overall. And on the final day, where, according to you, "he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win", he all-killed Abydos, the third-strongest team in WTL Code S, before proceeding to 2-0 Maru. Then, after going 9-0 in maps, he lost a single ZvZ.
Thank you! Holy shit, that original comment was basically saying "lol Serral only has 90% win rate, not even 100%, what a scrub"
And yes, I am not exaggerating, Serral's winnrate this year is 90% in series, and that's including his disappointing early exit on IEM Katowice.
People really are trying to discredit Serral in the most moronic way possible.
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Northern Ireland25894 Posts
On September 20 2023 03:54 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 13:36 Antithesis wrote:Amazing performance by Serral. In this tournament alone, he beat the current GSL champion 5-0, cumulatively (Maru), the current GSL runner-up 3-1 (Dark), and the other current top 4 GSL players 4-1 and 2-0 (Cure and Gumiho, respectively). On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever No, it does not. No zerg other than Serral, not even Reynor, and still less any one of the GSL zergs or the other top EU zergs, displays a level of dominance against terran and protoss even remotely close to that of Serral. On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money You cannot seriously believe that the reason why no other zerg player, not even Reynor, is as consistent as Serral is that they "only bother when there are huge sums of money". What would that even mean? In the current state of the game, Master's Coliseum is one of the largest tournaments of the year, and virtually every S-tier player did, in fact, play in it. Furthermore, please tell me, who, besides Reynor, are those other zerg "players like Reynor", who could play like Serral if only they bothered? How many of them did win even a single major tournament this year? On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again Serral's performance in the last WTL season was one of if not the single best performance any player has ever delivered in the history of WTL Code S. It's abstruse to attempt to twist this into an argument against him. He went 30-4 overall. And on the final day, where, according to you, "he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win", he all-killed Abydos, the third-strongest team in WTL Code S, before proceeding to 2-0 Maru. Then, after going 9-0 in maps, he lost a single ZvZ. Thank you! Holy shit, that original comment was basically saying "lol Serral only has 90% win rate, not even 100%, what a scrub" And yes, I am not exaggerating, Serral's winnrate this year is 90% in series, and that's including his disappointing early exit on IEM Katowice. People really are trying to discredit Serral in the most moronic way possible.
It’s pretty bloody absurd, what’s his set rate? :O
Honestly, and I’m pretty sure most other veterans will remember this, consensus was for many years of the game that a winrate like that over such an extended period just wasn’t possible.
The game was too volatile, not quite as hard as BW, faster by degrees than WC3. Games where you had, and still sometimes have really dominant players. BW is just so difficult mechanically that even today there’s appreciable gaps between top players. WC3 it’s pretty hard to cheese a player at the tip top level, and because fights are a lot slower the guy with better micro tends to always make that count, versus SC2 where it’s very fast so even the best can botch a 10 second engagement, or have their screen the wrong place.
It is a pretty silly win rate, with all it entails. Serral has basically had to correctly identify and read and respond to every kind of wonky prepared allin or cheese AND win the majority of straight-up macro games, over such an extended period.
Remarkable stuff really. Even his ladder performance is historically staggering
It’s just a pity that various timelines didn’t quite align, it would be fascinating to have seen how this version of Serral got on at the tip top Kespa era.
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On September 20 2023 03:54 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2023 13:36 Antithesis wrote:Amazing performance by Serral. In this tournament alone, he beat the current GSL champion 5-0, cumulatively (Maru), the current GSL runner-up 3-1 (Dark), and the other current top 4 GSL players 4-1 and 2-0 (Cure and Gumiho, respectively). On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Beating terrans and protoss as easily and still being that vulnerable to supposedly lesser zergs just smell like zerg being as strong as ever No, it does not. No zerg other than Serral, not even Reynor, and still less any one of the GSL zergs or the other top EU zergs, displays a level of dominance against terran and protoss even remotely close to that of Serral. On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
it’s impressive to do it consistently whereas players like Reynor only bother when there are huge sums of money You cannot seriously believe that the reason why no other zerg player, not even Reynor, is as consistent as Serral is that they "only bother when there are huge sums of money". What would that even mean? In the current state of the game, Master's Coliseum is one of the largest tournaments of the year, and virtually every S-tier player did, in fact, play in it. Furthermore, please tell me, who, besides Reynor, are those other zerg "players like Reynor", who could play like Serral if only they bothered? How many of them did win even a single major tournament this year? On September 19 2023 05:38 Poopi wrote:
Similarly, he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win because of Solar, who is notorious for getting eliminated early on in the GSL over and over again Serral's performance in the last WTL season was one of if not the single best performance any player has ever delivered in the history of WTL Code S. It's abstruse to attempt to twist this into an argument against him. He went 30-4 overall. And on the final day, where, according to you, "he didn’t manage to carry Basilisk into a WTL win", he all-killed Abydos, the third-strongest team in WTL Code S, before proceeding to 2-0 Maru. Then, after going 9-0 in maps, he lost a single ZvZ. Thank you! Holy shit, that original comment was basically saying "lol Serral only has 90% win rate, not even 100%, what a scrub" And yes, I am not exaggerating, Serral's winnrate this year is 90% in series, and that's including his disappointing early exit on IEM Katowice. People really are trying to discredit Serral in the most moronic way possible.
Exactly my thoughts!
I mean it's fine to have an opinion and it's okay to have a debate about GOATs and so on but to say "lol Serral lost a whole match this year in an important tournament, what a loser" is just shittalking.
Serral has the best winrate in all of WTL history and then complaining about Serral didn't carry hard enough? Come on dude, get your head ouf of your behind
From Nakajins tournament write-up:
Serral's victory gave BASILISK the first ever 7-0 all-kill in the WTL era, with Dream having last achieved such a result in 2020 when the tournament was known as the Gold Series Team Championship. Individually, Serral improved to an unbelievable 30-1 in the regular season and playoffs combined, easily the best performance in WTL history up to that point. The only thing left was to complete the Royal Road run against ONSYDE Gaming.
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[/QUOTE]
It’s pretty bloody absurd, what’s his set rate? :O
Honestly, and I’m pretty sure most other veterans will remember this, consensus was for many years of the game that a winrate like that over such an extended period just wasn’t possible.
The game was too volatile, not quite as hard as BW, faster by degrees than WC3. Games where you had, and still sometimes have really dominant players. BW is just so difficult mechanically that even today there’s appreciable gaps between top players. WC3 it’s pretty hard to cheese a player at the tip top level, and because fights are a lot slower the guy with better micro tends to always make that count, versus SC2 where it’s very fast so even the best can botch a 10 second engagement, or have their screen the wrong place.
It is a pretty silly win rate, with all it entails. Serral has basically had to correctly identify and read and respond to every kind of wonky prepared allin or cheese AND win the majority of straight-up macro games, over such an extended period.
Remarkable stuff really. Even his ladder performance is historically staggering
It’s just a pity that various timelines didn’t quite align, it would be fascinating to have seen how this version of Serral got on at the tip top Kespa era.
[/QUOTE]
Set rate is 80%, still an obscenely high number. This is probably the most dominant run of any player in SC2 history in my memory.
Oliveira (who regularly practices with Serral) recently commentates on the Serral vs Clem series in the Chinese stream of PiG Sty 4.0, somewhere in the middle he said Serral has the matchup figured out inside out now, down to every last detail, "balance council, just release the new patch already, it's impossible to beat this man in current meta"
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On September 20 2023 08:35 WombaT wrote:
It’s pretty bloody absurd, what’s his set rate? :O
Honestly, and I’m pretty sure most other veterans will remember this, consensus was for many years of the game that a winrate like that over such an extended period just wasn’t possible.
The game was too volatile, not quite as hard as BW, faster by degrees than WC3. Games where you had, and still sometimes have really dominant players. BW is just so difficult mechanically that even today there’s appreciable gaps between top players. WC3 it’s pretty hard to cheese a player at the tip top level, and because fights are a lot slower the guy with better micro tends to always make that count, versus SC2 where it’s very fast so even the best can botch a 10 second engagement, or have their screen the wrong place.
It is a pretty silly win rate, with all it entails. Serral has basically had to correctly identify and read and respond to every kind of wonky prepared allin or cheese AND win the majority of straight-up macro games, over such an extended period.
Remarkable stuff really. Even his ladder performance is historically staggering
It’s just a pity that various timelines didn’t quite align, it would be fascinating to have seen how this version of Serral got on at the tip top Kespa era.
[/QUOTE]
Set rate is 80%, still an obscenely high number. This is probably the most dominant run of any player in SC2 history in my memory.
Oliveira (who regularly practices with Serral) recently commentates on the Serral vs Clem series in the Chinese stream of PiG Sty 4.0, somewhere in the middle he said Serral has the matchup figured out inside out now, down to every last detail, "balance council, just release the new patch already, it's impossible to beat this man in current meta" [/QUOTE]
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On September 26 2023 02:16 Nasigil wrote:It’s pretty bloody absurd, what’s his set rate? :O Honestly, and I’m pretty sure most other veterans will remember this, consensus was for many years of the game that a winrate like that over such an extended period just wasn’t possible. The game was too volatile, not quite as hard as BW, faster by degrees than WC3. Games where you had, and still sometimes have really dominant players. BW is just so difficult mechanically that even today there’s appreciable gaps between top players. WC3 it’s pretty hard to cheese a player at the tip top level, and because fights are a lot slower the guy with better micro tends to always make that count, versus SC2 where it’s very fast so even the best can botch a 10 second engagement, or have their screen the wrong place. It is a pretty silly win rate, with all it entails. Serral has basically had to correctly identify and read and respond to every kind of wonky prepared allin or cheese AND win the majority of straight-up macro games, over such an extended period. Remarkable stuff really. Even his ladder performance is historically staggering It’s just a pity that various timelines didn’t quite align, it would be fascinating to have seen how this version of Serral got on at the tip top Kespa era.
Set rate is 80%, still an obscenely high number. This is probably the most dominant run of any player in SC2 history in my memory.
Oliveira (who regularly practices with Serral) recently commentates on the Serral vs Clem series in the Chinese stream of PiG Sty 4.0, somewhere in the middle he said Serral has the matchup figured out inside out now, down to every last detail, then he adds "balance council, just release the new patch already, it's impossible to beat this man in current meta"
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Yeah hard to deny that Serral right now is the most dominant player the game has ever seen. Only asterisks are that it's at a time where most of the other Goat contenders are already retired/declined and that he "failed" at the two biggest events of the year with two ro8 exists. But his overall performance since Katowice is Flash-like with gamers8 as an outlier.
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EPT
