On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote: While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.
To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.
I think our current map pool is evidence that that's not necessarily the case, it's not WILD but it's definitely one of the more fun map pools we've had in a long time imo; I've been a judge for TLMC on multiple occasions and consulted internally on the map selection process when Blizzard was more involved, for my taste, this is one of the more 'standard'(boring) sets to make it into the voting phase (and likely the ladder). Plus, during open voting I trust Wardi's tournament to show the viewers / potential player base which maps make for fun/diverse/interesting games vs low strategical variety/same-ish looking games on same-ish looking maps, again, I think that most pro players today (and judges) seem mostly content and ultimately comfortable with bottomless repetition - But I think it hurts interest in the game / viewing experience. On a personal level, and seemingly at this point a minority, as a player who enjoys exploring new ideas / adapting vs repeating / fine tuning, I am much less excited for this potential pool vs the last (current ladder pool).
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote: While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.
To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.
I think our current map pool is evidence that that's not necessarily the case, it's not WILD but it's definitely one of the more fun map pools we've had in a long time imo; I've been a judge for TLMC on multiple occasions and consulted internally on the map selection process when Blizzard was more involved, for my taste, this is one of the more 'standard'(boring) sets to make it into the voting phase (and likely the ladder). Plus, during open voting I trust Wardi's tournament to show the viewers / potential player base which maps make for fun/diverse/interesting games vs low strategical variety/same-ish looking games on same-ish looking maps, again, I think that most pro players today (and judges) seem mostly content and ultimately comfortable with bottomless repetition - But I think it hurts interest in the game / viewing experience. On a personal level, and seemingly at this point a minority, as a player who enjoys exploring new ideas / adapting vs repeating / fine tuning, I am much less excited for this potential pool vs the last (current ladder pool).
I'm a bit less excited by the current set of finalists as well. The current map pool really is quite fun; Waterfall, Cosmic Sapphire, and Moondance have all been very successful subversions of the Rush, Standard, and Macro paradigms in my view (though the balance of Waterfall in particular could be debated) and made a very nice complement to the more standard Inside and Out, Tropical Sacrifice, and Data-C, if nothing else.
I'm unsure of how to match the current map pool by selecting purely from these TLMC17 finalists. I've got a fat mouth for making Cryolysis a pretty boring standard Rush map, and I'm not going to excuse it with my inexperience (I started learning 1v1 maps the day TLMC17 was announced), but overall I am not sure any of the finalists strongly subvert the tropes in their respective categories.
In particular, the boldest of the Freestyle submissions I personally saw were cut in the prescreening phase, which led to judges being presented with, what was in my opinion, a relatively weak Freestyle category. I'm sorry on behalf of everyone who tried to do something more bold than I did with my own Freestyle finalist. Even now, there are those who suggest to me that my own submission is not particularly Freestyle, and that the rocks won't make a real impact on the game if they're not placed on at least one of the 3rd bases, but discussing this further is beyond the scope of my comment and the TLMC tournament is better for dis/proving that point than my own words are.
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote: While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.
To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.
I frankly doubt the average voter is more concerned with voting for the most standard maps than with anything of the following: - their favorite mapmaker in the contest (or perhaps one they even know personally) - whatever seems best for their own race/worst for races that are not their own - whatever is prettiest to them - whatever gives them a silly gimmick they think they abuse on ladder
The average voter is either a player who is going to ban their three least favorite maps on ladder or a spectator who is likely to prefer novel maps to boring ones (unless the boring ones are otherwise brilliant).
Freestyle is in hard spot currently. Amount of maps that are at least solid is great in the three other categories. Only a few dip below 3 in their average score and some solid maps get cut in prescreening phase. Same time maps are very standardized in the three categories. Especially first four bases are formulaic as judges focus on them a lot. Generally the "rules" are less strict for other parts of the map. This creates situation where to succeed in macro, standard, or rush category you need to play safe and simple things like gold base can dip your points below the top 4 of category. Thus these maps can end up in freestyle where they are score above the more freestyle maps. Currently only option I see is that map makers would self regulate and keep Freestyle weirder while pushing smaller things to other categories. However this goes against the desire for success and seeing your map getting played in tournaments and ladder. The categories only need a map or two that do not self regulate and suddenly the top spots are taken. Maybe one could risk it if they knew that there are a few other contests to come in a year or so.
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote: While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.
To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.
Can't believe that Durn of all people forgot Catalyst is just a remix of Overgrowth with more bases.
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote: While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.
To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.
Can't believe that Durn of all people forgot Catalyst is just a remix of Overgrowth with more bases.
I do, but I also remember half the people on this website have never seen Overgrowth played competitively.
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote: While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.
To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
You speak right from my soul. Your condolences are received.
edit:
suggestion: Test the maps in a big open tournament. Everyone can participate and each match is given a random set of maps from all the submissions. The players could then vote the maps they enjoyed the most playing on, independent on if they lost or won. So not only players but also maps would gradually advance. Some Judges picked maps could also be given a second chance in a later stage of the tournament.
On October 24 2022 19:34 ROOTCatZ wrote: While most maps are playable, sadly a lot of the most fun / different maps didn't make it in to the voting stage which to me as 1/9 judges is rather disappointing, lots of same-ish maps to choose from, not a bad set by any means, just wish there was more variety because ultimately maps are essential to variety in gameplay / strategy and most players (+I imagine, other judges primarily) today are happy / comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Hope next iteration of the contest is a bit bolder / different, I think our current map pool is great with lots of different flavors and has produced great games, but this as a set feels like a step back to me.
To be clear, I have no issue with maps individually, they are fine / good - but I think as a group they're lacking a little bit of spice - So alongside my congratulations to the finalists, I attach my condolences to map makers who put in thought and effort to try to make fun, interesting and unique maps to keep the game fresh and didn't make the cut.
It's always been that way unfortunately, and even if the judges were to pick vastly different maps, people would still vote for the Catalyst and Ascension to Aiur clones.
Can't believe that Durn of all people forgot Catalyst is just a remix of Overgrowth with more bases.
Excuse me, it's a remix of a remix of Cloud Kingdom that just happened to come out looking like a remix of Overgrowth.
In particular, the boldest of the Freestyle submissions I personally saw were cut in the prescreening phase, which led to judges being presented with, what was in my opinion, a relatively weak Freestyle category.
Can you give some examples of the bold ideas we missed out on?
Pretty disappointed in the overall pool compared to the feeling I got when we got our existing ladder maps tbh. Just too many copy paste jobs present. Play the game of if you can spot which map is Triton, which map is Inside and Out, and which map is Waterfall and those are just the super obvious ones. I bet those of us with longer memories or the will to go back into past pools could find more.
I'll probably vote: Taitalika, Silver Wall, Black Engine, Babylon, and last Erreholm
Here's to hoping for more bold ideas in the future. We're not getting future patches anymore so we better start making it fresh with maps.
Wish I could give out more points because there are some pretty cool maps like Lazarus up for voting; I just adore alternative mineral bases. Altitude's destructible tower on top of a Xel'naga is pure awesome.
On October 25 2022 22:02 InfCereal wrote: Ancient Ciste has got to be the most stereotypically sc2 map of all time. Like the boiled chicken of sc2 maps.
That has to win the standard category. It's offensively standard. It should be in the dictionary next to the word "standard" as a definition.
What does it say about me, I wonder, that it was my top pick of the bunch? You're not wrong haha, I guess I'm just boring ^^
There are a few maps that stand out to me, like Electron and Erreholm. Interesting layouts and good usage of watch towers that were taken in every game played so far in the Wardii TLMC tournament. I think that many map makers would like to update the layouts seeing how the maps are played. I hope that many things will balance out in the post-iteration. Looking forward to it.
Voted. My favorites are Altitude, Electron, Dragon Scales, Electron, and Babylon.
Also - I agree with the previous sentiments that the results from this TLMC are mostly re-skinned layouts from previous maps (not 100%, but very close for almost every single map including mine). Happy to have a map in the finals but I think from here on out I will be focused on making balanced maps that offer a new perspective in some way instead of recreating what we already have multiple copies of - which aligns a lot more with what I enjoy about playing and watching the game.
MacSed was an absolute disgrace of a judge. Truly horrendous especially when you take into consideration the money and things at stakes. But I mean what can you expect from someone who is willing to throw against a diamond player for money ))
EPT
))
