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[TSL 9] - Serral wins TSL9 - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
90 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next All
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-09-05 20:49:52
September 05 2022 20:49 GMT
#41
Lol at these clueless guys doubting FlaSh... Ask any korean about him, doesn't matter if they don't play BW or they play AoE or LoL, if they think he's GOAT. Why you think he's called God? For those who think Terran on BW is OP look up ASL10 - he almost got into finals playing random lol.
sunbeams are never made like me...
TossHeroes
Profile Joined February 2022
281 Posts
September 05 2022 21:45 GMT
#42
On September 06 2022 05:39 Durnuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2022 05:35 TossHeroes wrote:
On September 06 2022 05:27 JJH777 wrote:
On September 06 2022 05:05 TossHeroes wrote:
On September 06 2022 01:11 JJH777 wrote:
On September 06 2022 00:40 TossHeroes wrote:
On September 06 2022 00:28 swarminfestor wrote:
On September 05 2022 23:58 Spirral wrote:
On September 05 2022 23:24 Argonauta wrote:
Disappointing result by Maru, he already got 3 second places this year. For others, that many finals may seem like an amazing run, but Maru is the best Sc2 player. He needs to step up with his game, pronto.

Maybe he is the second best sc2 player after all?


Cannot say for Serral either before 2018. Maru is freaking dominant. One or two year lackluster results didn't determine the whole career achievements.


Using that argument. Maru has an average career if you take out his 2018 results. There are 10+ Korean players that has a better achievement than him

The Goat argument is between Rogue and Serral (wouldn’t disagree too much with either choices. Maru is a distance 3rd unless he can win one world championship to close the gap

I would even put Dark comfortably over Maru if he manage to win another GSL or world championship


Maru without 2018 still has 3 starleagues a bunch of small stuff like season finals/last chance/super tournament/kob/asus and is the best proleague player of all time. There are no where near 10 Koreans that beat that resume.


Mvp, inno. Mc, nestea, taeja, life , stats, classic, dear, rain, dark , rogue etc. Maru is easily outside of Top 10 without his 2018 accomplishment

Most of them are all GSL winners during the golden era or the “hardest” trophy to win (like all the Korean elitist like to say)
Maru was basically a gatekeeper during that time

Not the water down GSLs Maru won

Dear and classic GSL > Maru ssl. (Am I doing it right guys? Or is that rule only for Mary’s GSL?)



Maru won OSL in 2013 and SSL in 2015 both during the hardest era. That's also when he was the best proleague player and regularly the last Terran standing in GSL during some seasons that were rather atrocious for Terran. He then won a GSL in 2019 got 3 more 2nd places and won a bunch of smaller stuff I already mentioned in the last couple years. MC/Nestea/Taeja/CLassic/Dear/Rain are all no where near Maru in overall accomplishment even completely disregarding everything he did in 2018. That leaves Life/Dark/Rogue/Mvp/Inno.

There is no meaningful distinction in terms of difficulty to win between OSL/SSL and GSL. They had similar prize pools (bit less for SSL but only because it didn't pay 17-32nd which doesn't make a tournament harder to win) and near identical formats and player pools. The OSL he won was a straight up GSL replacement for that season anyways.

It's especially funny that you are arguing this while simultaneously arguing Serral is the goat. You're basically arguing all the stuff Maru won the last year or two is worthless if you really think those players have more accomplishments than him. If you think Last Chance/Season Finals/KOB are worthless then more than half of Serral's trophies are worthless including this TSL.


Serral has two world championships the hardest and most prestige. A dream and ultimate goal for all sc2 players

Serral went, conquer, and left with 2 GSL’s. Both path to victory were harder than any of Maru’s GSL

Whichever Serral IS the big dog. Whichever tournament he attends instantly becomes S tier

So why isn't Rogue the GOAT according to your criteria?


I already mentioned Rogue and Serral are the clear top 2 for me.

I wouldn’t disagree with either choices
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-09-05 22:29:45
September 05 2022 22:28 GMT
#43
On September 06 2022 03:31 MockHamill wrote:
Flash is not the greatest RTS player.
He was the best in BW but in SC2 he was mid-tier, not even near the best players.
So he had to go back to BW in order to compete.

So? So if Serral switched to AoE at one point and became a very good player but not a dominant one that would also invalidate his sc2 achievements by your logic?
That's complete bullshit, Flash won premier tournaments in 2 different RTS games, that's a plus and not a minus compared to players who only won in one game.

Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
September 05 2022 22:32 GMT
#44
On September 06 2022 05:29 TossHeroes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2022 04:29 Poopi wrote:
On September 06 2022 03:31 MockHamill wrote:
Flash is not the greatest RTS player.
He was the best in BW but in SC2 he was mid-tier, not even near the best players.
So he had to go back to BW in order to compete.

BW was still the most competitive RTS of all time and being the undisputed GOAT there qualifies you as RTS GOAT.

I did not witness / doesn’t watch much BW so for me Maru has been the most impressive RTS player of all time but I only watched sc2 and a bit of Warcraft 3.

One has to wonder though, if younger promising players that went into sc2 and stayed in it like INno / Zest would have kept playing BW (well all of kespa), would they have surpassed Flash?

Because prime INno during HotS was a scary monster


Flash is the goat BW hands down and it’s not even close

Goat RTS of all time? Nah not even close

There is a big difference between competitive and difficult

BW is not the most difficult RTS ( most popular? Sure)

Difficulty doesn't really mean anything when playing against other human players because the game will always be as difficult as the player you're playing against.
In terms of competitiveness though... wooow, the BW scene in 2008-2012 was so much more competitive than the sc2 scene today it's not even funny
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
tommey.liang
Profile Joined November 2020
United States362 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-09-05 23:27:17
September 05 2022 23:24 GMT
#45
Congratulations to Joona Sotala on finally claiming that TSL championship. It's been a heck of a year for the Finnish Phenom with it being parallel to his 2018 and 2019 runs -- this year with claiming IEM Katowice, HomeStory Cup XXI and now TSL 9. Maru hasn't defeated Serral in a competitive series since King of Battles 2 in 2021.

Sad that Clem made another early exit for the tournament. Solar was dominant and showed flashes of brilliance; good job to ShowTime for making it that far as well. Could have been a different outcome if Reynor didn't play Protoss in that first game vs. Serral, but ah well.

Also Twitch chat was going bonkers over the "balloon trophy" and Serral taking a while to cut the cake. Wasn't a fan of the joke balloon trophy- with all of the sponsors such as Shopify, Secretlab, etc. you would think there would have been a nicer-looking and permanent trophy lolol. Also wonder how hard the cake truly was.

Excited tor TSL 10 maybe in 2023. Would like for Clem to make a deeper run. Also MaxPax needs to make an in-person appearance at some point.

Edit: That game four of Serral-ShowTime is definitely one of the best games of 2022; but definitely one of the best series-ending games for sure. That 0-4 mark truly doesn't explain the whole story of how close some of those games were.

FF, KH, Persona, Uncharted, Yakuza | Porter, Illenium, MitiS, Dabin, Seven Lions, Petit Biscuit | Diablo II, SC2 | Pho, sushi, tacos
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
September 06 2022 00:35 GMT
#46
On September 05 2022 20:45 goldensail wrote:
a-moving endless waves of ling bane until Terran is overwhelmed...is this how this game is supposed to be interesting?

and zergs will continue to keep a straight face and say the game is balanced.


I absolutely feel you. I have always felt like saying that PvZ is not being an easy matchup is not just a bit of an understatement - both in bw and sc2. Due to all my friends playing protoss in our team games in sc2, I switched to terran and TvZ always felt "a bit hard" as well. However, I simply cannot deny that Serral often seems like he is on a whole other level of play in his games. There is a reason why Serral is at the top of sc2 earnings. There is a reason why he is often referred to as the sc2 goat. And there is a reason why he is able to dominate Maru after Maru easily beat decent zergs such as Solar, Ragnarok and Lambo, and advanced over the perpetual title contenteder that is Reynor. When Serral keeps on winning top level tournaments; when there are only a handful of other zerg top level contenders, and when Serral manages to distinguish himself from them, his domination cannot be simply attributed to some possibly existing inbalance. Serral feels like and automaton that is simply in a league of his own.
luxon
Profile Joined August 2012
United States111 Posts
September 06 2022 03:08 GMT
#47
wtf why were spoilers posted immediately after the event ended, they usually wait a week...
Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4906 Posts
September 06 2022 08:09 GMT
#48
On September 06 2022 12:08 luxon wrote:
wtf why were spoilers posted immediately after the event ended, they usually wait a week...


As a rule of thumb, do not come to a starcraft esport news site if you don't want to be spoiled about the results of a tournament. Everyone does that, why couldn't you?
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
TL+ Member
youaremysin
Profile Joined August 2015
119 Posts
September 06 2022 08:33 GMT
#49
GGs to Serral, hope he can get challenged a bit in the next tournaments.
Best argument for goat is that no Serral fan is ever stressed about him losing whereas Maru's fan are always but clenched.

I'm a bit sad cause for some time I thought Clem could take over the torch and become the future of terran but we've yet to see another T excel in all categories
t2azor
Profile Joined April 2017
32 Posts
September 06 2022 09:01 GMT
#50
its obvious that Z is broken
Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13320 Posts
September 06 2022 10:18 GMT
#51
On September 06 2022 12:08 luxon wrote:
wtf why were spoilers posted immediately after the event ended, they usually wait a week...

[image loading]
(and then press F5)
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
jack_less
Profile Joined May 2022
77 Posts
September 06 2022 10:46 GMT
#52
On September 05 2022 23:08 sirokop wrote:
A race with superior economy should not have units as versatile and cost-effective as the current state of queens (transfuse), banelings, vipers (abduct, parasitic bomb), and swarmhosts (infinite spawning units), it is an obvious major balance design flaw.

i would agree.
but there against speaks the Zerg has no real great superior ecco.
therefore zerg needs cost-efficient units.
Toss is mostly on par with Zerg ecco.
Terran possibly ecco diff, but 1. Terran has the most efficient units 2. Mule therefore equal on in ecco ...
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3420 Posts
September 06 2022 11:01 GMT
#53
All it takes to balance the game is make creep tumors have 0 vision.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-09-06 12:37:24
September 06 2022 12:35 GMT
#54
Maru didn't play as well as normal in this series. It's a shame that one not efficient hold essentially spells death in the current ZvT meta while zerg gets several attempts at breaking terran, but oh well.

The 1 map and map veto advantage for the upper bracket winner is also a bit of a hype killer. People want bo7 finals. If the UB player goes up 2-1 in games they've probably already won which doesn't seem great.

Having a 1 map advantage is insane but having the veto and taking away the best map for your opponent is ridiculous. You may as well not have double elimination in that case.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Tommy131313
Profile Joined May 2016
Germany153 Posts
September 06 2022 12:53 GMT
#55
On September 06 2022 21:35 Fango wrote:
Maru didn't play as well as normal in this series. It's a shame that one not efficient hold essentially spells death in the current ZvT meta while zerg gets several attempts at breaking terran, but oh well.

The 1 map and map veto advantage for the upper bracket winner is also a bit of a hype killer. People want bo7 finals. If the UB player goes up 2-1 in games they've probably already won which doesn't seem great.

Having a 1 map advantage is insane but having the veto and taking away the best map for your opponent is ridiculous. You may as well not have double elimination in that case.



Afaik there is no vetoing as you propose.
Both players choose maps - and the least liked for both won't be played because of UB +1 map advantage.
Sounds quite fair to me.
Tommy131313
Profile Joined May 2016
Germany153 Posts
September 06 2022 12:57 GMT
#56
On September 06 2022 20:01 True_Spike wrote:
All it takes to balance the game is make creep tumors have 0 vision.



Ok, then the queen should get a "vision" spell, that would be the equivalent to terran scouting option.
But then, why should we have a balancing between different races/abilities at all? Wouldn't it be most fair, if it was mirror matchups all day long? Alas, maybe not too interesting matches then...
Tommy131313
Profile Joined May 2016
Germany153 Posts
September 06 2022 13:06 GMT
#57
Always entertaining to read the comments when a korean player has lost the final to a European (that is normally Serral or Reynor...).

"opponent's race is broken"
"tournament wasn't important enough for Koreans"
"opponents win doesn't count, if he has never won a GSL"
"in previous times competition/quality of game was so much higher (...the good old times...)"

Did I forget something?
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-09-06 13:47:03
September 06 2022 13:45 GMT
#58
On September 06 2022 22:06 Tommy131313 wrote:
Always entertaining to read the comments when a korean player has lost the final to a European (that is normally Serral or Reynor...).

"opponent's race is broken"
"tournament wasn't important enough for Koreans"
"opponents win doesn't count, if he has never won a GSL"
"in previous times competition/quality of game was so much higher (...the good old times...)"

Did I forget something?

First point is true but that's always the case when a Zerg wins a tournament. 2nd and 3rd point you're just making up as I haven't seen it anywhere and 4th point I haven't read here after the finals but is objectively true
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
dysenterymd
Profile Joined January 2019
1199 Posts
September 06 2022 13:45 GMT
#59
On September 06 2022 21:35 Fango wrote:
Maru didn't play as well as normal in this series. It's a shame that one not efficient hold essentially spells death in the current ZvT meta while zerg gets several attempts at breaking terran, but oh well.

The 1 map and map veto advantage for the upper bracket winner is also a bit of a hype killer. People want bo7 finals. If the UB player goes up 2-1 in games they've probably already won which doesn't seem great.

Having a 1 map advantage is insane but having the veto and taking away the best map for your opponent is ridiculous. You may as well not have double elimination in that case.

Agreed, the bo5 into bo3 if the UB player loses format is a lot better. It makes more sense (every player is allowed to lose one series) and feels like much less of a mountain to climb. Even if the result wouldn't have been any different this time, coming back from 1-2 and then winning a fresh bo3 feels a lot more doable than coming back from 1-3.
Serral | Inno | sOs | soO | Has | Classic
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3420 Posts
September 06 2022 16:31 GMT
#60
On September 06 2022 21:57 Tommy131313 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2022 20:01 True_Spike wrote:
All it takes to balance the game is make creep tumors have 0 vision.



Ok, then the queen should get a "vision" spell, that would be the equivalent to terran scouting option.
But then, why should we have a balancing between different races/abilities at all? Wouldn't it be most fair, if it was mirror matchups all day long? Alas, maybe not too interesting matches then...


And that's exactly why zerg has overlords

Zerg vision on creep (coupled with creep's speed bonus) is what makes it much easier to always be prepared / in the right position for any attack mid to late game without risking an actual unit (or any other real trade-off, really) for that piece of intel.

It also makes it easier to spread creep itself (since, again, you don't need a unit there to give vision).

But I digress... Serral is obviously the best player right now anyways. I just don't find it coincidental, however, that most other top contenders happen to be zerg, too.
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