On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
I ve heard about DNS opinion regarding "Queens walk", it seems to cut most of the gateway-robot opening from what i ve understand.
Could be the conclusion of SC2 ? Queens heal roachs with rapid fire and breaks all robot-builds
Wiki Quote Transfusion Multiple applications of Transfusion in rapid succession each heal for 75 health, but the 50 health over time effect does not stack, i.e., will be applied only once.
I'd like to see a video of a zerg doing a queen walk against a robo opening.
This isn t exactly what you want but I found this video where Lambo is explaining that this opening is working against absolutely every Protoss build in particulary robot opening (except blink-stalker which has to be scouted). I don t think i m saying bullshit and probably, this all-in can be more and more aggressive depending the timer you re pushing...
Actually if Lambo says it s working there s no reason to doubt about that
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
No reason to get triggered I just don't think on pro level the reason everyone goes Skytoss is because it's that good but that the other options kinda suck for the mentioned reason. Whether skytoss is balanced at top 100 level is another discussion which I don't have an opinion to.
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
No reason to get triggered I just don't think on pro level the reason everyone goes Skytoss is because it's that good but that the other options kinda suck for the mentioned reason. Whether skytoss is balanced at top 100 level is another discussion which I don't have an opinion to.
Skytoss is incredibly good at a high level, I don't know how you've reached the conclusion it isn't.
Just because the top 2-3 zergs beat it doesn't mean it's not good. It's killing the zerg population of this game.
Aligulac has pvz at about 60%, you don't see that very often for a matchup even if the data is not always useful on it's own.
Seems like some people are happy for the game to head towards 70% protoss and everyone else just quit. But Serral will still win so...balanced?
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
I think that bar is too high for a healthy game and it’s not just because Skytoss is strong either. It’s not particularly fun to play and it’s certainly not fun to play against and it’s not a particularly good watch either.
I agree that a lurker nerf without any other changes would be terrible, but Sky Toss is as fleshed out as it currently is partly due to buffs encouraging more experimentation, partly as the Protoss collective seemed to have hit a brick wall in terms of playing ground-based armies into the lategame.
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
I think that bar is too high for a healthy game and it’s not just because Skytoss is strong either. It’s not particularly fun to play and it’s certainly not fun to play against and it’s not a particularly good watch either.
I agree that a lurker nerf without any other changes would be terrible, but Sky Toss is as fleshed out as it currently is partly due to buffs encouraging more experimentation, partly as the Protoss collective seemed to have hit a brick wall in terms of playing ground-based armies into the lategame.
If you nerf Skytoss straight up at the top level PvZ lategame will become unwinnable again. More reasonable would be a nerf to Voidrays so Toss players can't just skip the midgame and go directly to Skytoss.
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
I think that bar is too high for a healthy game and it’s not just because Skytoss is strong either. It’s not particularly fun to play and it’s certainly not fun to play against and it’s not a particularly good watch either.
I agree that a lurker nerf without any other changes would be terrible, but Sky Toss is as fleshed out as it currently is partly due to buffs encouraging more experimentation, partly as the Protoss collective seemed to have hit a brick wall in terms of playing ground-based armies into the lategame.
If you nerf Skytoss straight up at the top level PvZ lategame will become unwinnable again. More reasonable would be a nerf to Voidrays so Toss players can't just skip the midgame and go directly to Skytoss.
And what makes you come to that conclusion? I never heard any Protoss Pro Player say they can only win with Skytoss. Only that winning with Skytoss is the easiest. If your argument is "well I never see Ground Protoss" I don't think that argument works here as players simply pick the best / easiest option.
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
I think that bar is too high for a healthy game and it’s not just because Skytoss is strong either. It’s not particularly fun to play and it’s certainly not fun to play against and it’s not a particularly good watch either.
I agree that a lurker nerf without any other changes would be terrible, but Sky Toss is as fleshed out as it currently is partly due to buffs encouraging more experimentation, partly as the Protoss collective seemed to have hit a brick wall in terms of playing ground-based armies into the lategame.
If you nerf Skytoss straight up at the top level PvZ lategame will become unwinnable again. More reasonable would be a nerf to Voidrays so Toss players can't just skip the midgame and go directly to Skytoss.
It feels you need to change a few parts to ideally make Protoss ground more viable at the very highest level in real late game and make Skytoss less oppressive in the current meta.
As you say, I don’t agree that Skytoss is a better, easier lategame option that Protoss players are using, it’s borderline the only port of call. Likewise mech is bloody rare these days and it’s not for lack of trying.
I fear say, just a void nerf without doing other things just makes the Skytoss transition harder and more open to busts, but alternatives to Skytoss aren’t good so Protoss will have a hard time.
On the other hand, I’m unsure how to square this particular circle, but hey it’s not my job! As long as players are as good as they are now and Vipers can yoink high value ground units into high range lurkers, making ground more viable just seems really difficult.
I can’t think of many occasions where there’s an air-centric late/super-lategame meta that was actually good, and not just in PvZ. I’ll happily wear my Protoss colours proudly but if a meta sucks, it sucks.
On September 22 2021 05:44 BonitiilloO wrote: Is there any top player giving his opinion on this matter?
IDK I am top 100 in EU.
My thoughts are: The Lurker isn't the reason Protoss doesn't go Ground. The reason is because Skytoss is so strong.
It is the same like back in the day when Protoss complained they have to open Stargate every Game versus Zerg cause of Ling Drops.
Then Ling Drops got nerfed and Protoss kept Opening Stargate every game just more aggressive.
Everytime you nerf something in SC2 the other Races will just try to play greedier and greedier. If you nerf Lurkers Protoss will keep playing Sky but even greedier and more aggressive with more Disruptors / Archons / Storm.
That's not really true on pro level. Skytoss doesn't have that high of a success rate. Often it loses vs Queen walks and even if the Zerg goes for macro Serral/Dark/Rogue regularly dismantle it. And still Protoss players keep trying it instead of going for ground
What even is the point of any Discussion on SC2 if Top 100 isn't good enough? If you think only the opinion of the top 40 in the World matter (or whatever arbitrary line you pick) then why even post in these threads at all.
I think that bar is too high for a healthy game and it’s not just because Skytoss is strong either. It’s not particularly fun to play and it’s certainly not fun to play against and it’s not a particularly good watch either.
I agree that a lurker nerf without any other changes would be terrible, but Sky Toss is as fleshed out as it currently is partly due to buffs encouraging more experimentation, partly as the Protoss collective seemed to have hit a brick wall in terms of playing ground-based armies into the lategame.
If you nerf Skytoss straight up at the top level PvZ lategame will become unwinnable again. More reasonable would be a nerf to Voidrays so Toss players can't just skip the midgame and go directly to Skytoss.
And what makes you come to that conclusion? I never heard any Protoss Pro Player say they can only win with Skytoss. Only that winning with Skytoss is the easiest. If your argument is "well I never see Ground Protoss" I don't think that argument works here as players simply pick the best / easiest option.
As a proper lategame option?
There are plenty of brutal ground-based kill timings, they’ve been Trap’s bread and butter for a bunch of his tournament wins.
What you don’t see much is a proper slugfest lategame where Protoss stay in the ground. I’m sure they exist but I can’t recall many in the vaguely recent past.
There’s the issue of predictability and keeping something in your pocket. If ground-based lategame Toss was actually good at all you’d see it more, especially in prep tournaments.
Bio is better than mech TvZ, but you still see the odd mech game to throw something different out. Hell I’ve seen more mech v Protoss one-off builds than a Protoss player playing for a lategame without taking to the air.
I’ve seen wonky games where timings haven’t quite killed a Zerg and Protoss can’t easily transition to Skytoss after their committee so they stay on ground tech for a while, I’ve not seen many games where it’s clear the Protoss plans to go mano o mano in a macro game without going Skytoss
Could just be the sample of games I particularly choose to warch.
Corruptors are broken Hydralisks are expensive Queens works out Queens / Roachs / Ravagers is a threat Toss player rushs skytoss
ps :
roach + queen = 320 hit points + 1 armor /// cost 225 minerals + 25 gas +++ transfusion
immortal = 300 hit points + 1 armor /// cost 275 minerals + 100 gas
The transition to skytoss is rushed because if the player try to defend with ground units, he would miss in gas and territory control, be in danger in the race to harvest resources for expand to new bases. More the game goes, more Zerg player would be able to tech and reach out to a confortable late game... Finally what is absolutely insane is massing carriers units (or battlecruiser for example) in a small area cause they haven t collision box. In comparaison, massive ground units are interesting because they are strong but clumpy (bothering movement) while air units doesn t suffer from this important feature of positionning.
Also, Mutalisks, Vikings and Phoenix are well designed and there is an obvious place for support units despite vipers can punish/frustrate so much.. Then I can t speak from an Esport view but i imagine Tempest could be usefull if his range return as desinged at start (from 10 to 15) and massive units like carriers and battlecruisers were removed (unless find a solution to overlapping problem units in Air... i.e concentrate too much strenght into a single position)
I agree that the Lurker needs to be more immobile. It's a bit messed up watching Lurkers able to chase ground armies down by burrowing and unburrowing.
Probably the burrow speed upgrade should be removed or reworked. 2 seconds to burrow is fine. It allows clear counterplay and keeps their role as positional units. Allowing them to be both fast and also burrow/unburrow quickly just confuses its design.
We shouldn't be seeing Lurkers able to chase down ground armies that are trying to run away.
An eventual sexy solution to slightly tweak lurkers without too much changes :
1) Removed armored tag 2) Reduce hit points from 200 to 140 3) Damage reduce from 20 ( + 10 against armored) to ( + 6 against armored ) 4) Ghost : 'Steady Targeting' decreased from 170 to 130 + 40 against armored
Here the list with bonus against armored in LoTV :
All these units will now do less damage to Lurkers , in proportion damage inflicted by Lurkers are reduced by proposition 3)
Stalker (+5), Immortal (+30), Void Ray (+4/+10)
Marauder (+10), Siege Tank (+10/+30), Viking (in Fighter Mode)
Spine Crawler, Lurker (+10)
List of armored units affected :
Stalker, Immortal ---- These units are mainly concerned by the patch Colossus -------------- It doesn t matter, colossus has 9 of range and lot of hp Disruptor -------------- This unit can now one shot a Lurker but Zerg has vipers
Marauder, Siege Tank -- These units are mainly concerned by the patch Thor ------------------------- not a problem Cyclone -------------------- not a good idea, "lock on" range = 7
Roach ---------------------- could be interessant Infestor --------------------- it doesn t matter Ultralisk -------------------- Ultralisk can be more competitive Swarm Host -------------- (...) Lurker
Finally, the only remaining problem for applying such a patch comes from Ghosts with their ability 'Steady Targeting' which does 170 damage if he sn t interrupted (with 10 range). If Zerg player has an overseer to detect ghosts, they couldn t shoot easily unless if they are in larger group, otherwise they would be now able to kick ass to Lurkers. So proposition 4) has been added
1.-I Main Protoss, I've never had any Zerg ever do a queen walk on me if I opened Robo. With good targeting Robo should kill it (specially if you scout it and add templates for archons/feedback). I have, however, died when I opened Stargate and made a Robo to stop their queen walk. Now I just make more gateway units and HT/DT.
2.-If the lurker is nerfed that would make ground toss more viable but I have no doubts most would still go air. The VR has pretty big counters and was useless before the patch so that's why I suggested to buff the infestor instead. But I agree there would be need of another change.
3.-Protoss doesn't have any other viable build apart from adept glaives pushes and maybe some random shitty early all in. You can clearly see this in Bo5 or the GSL. If they had other strategies they would use them because I'm a Bo5 even if a strat is good you need to mix it up. Protoss don't, because they don't have one. Remember back when the VR was shit Protoss only did variations of the adept build which failed almost every time because all the other strategies were either nerfed into the ground or made obsolete.
Remember parting blink micro? Have you noticed how we don't see stuff like that anymore? It was nerfed into oblivion and Blink and the stalker had a much narrower window of opportunity where they are useful thanks to LoTV increased game pace. Blink is now basically used on TvP to dive on top of bunkers and snipe medivacs (not really micro) and in PvZ because it's useful to retreat. Long gone are the days of micro.
About the suggestion of Vision, I would need to do the math. Disruptors one shotting lurkers would go a long way to make ground viable. Though there is still the problem of the viper cancelling disruption nova and Lurker one shotting HT but I think it could work since now if you manage by chance or skill to get 1 disruptor hit at least you killed a lurker instead of getting nothing.
In fact after doing the maths this morning, it appears than my proposition would increase Lurkers strenght....
Imagine this new proposition :
1) Decrease speed from "very fast" to "fast" (Respect armored tag unit as most of them have "normal speed")
2) Increase supply cost from 3 to 4
3) In return, cooldown attack is increased from 1.43 to 1.27 (+12.5% for example), damage does now 14 + 16 against armored (instead of 20 + 10 against armored)
4) Tech tree changes to Lair
These modifications aims to keep Lurkers competitive against armored units (no damage changes, acceleration of his attack in return of a bigger supply cost) in giving them a weakness against light units. Tech change seems a solution (to me) to give a chance to Zerg player of pushing back earlier Terran All-ins.
Obviously, these changes are just expectations. Technically, hope to decrease critical mass of Lurkers, strenght against armored unit should stay the same
All these suggestions are unnecessarily complex. All thats required is remove speed burrow for Lurkers and decrease their overall speed a bit as well as nerf Viper abduct and remove siphon energy. In return remove void upgrade and nerf carriers. Problem solved.
On September 24 2021 18:27 MarianoSC2 wrote: All these suggestions are unnecessarily complex. All thats required is remove speed burrow for Lurkers and decrease their overall speed a bit as well as nerf Viper abduct and remove siphon energy. In return remove void upgrade and nerf carriers. Problem solved.
Everything you say has a name, it s called adaptative talons.
What you don t understand is that Lurkers is the only unit which is doing so well against all type of unit. In the wikipedia page, Lurkers is known to be strong against Marine, Hydralisk and Zealot (Base units with light armor), but everything in his design show that unit is awesome against armored.
In definitive the role occupied by Lurkers is too large, in other words, in comparaison too many zergs units are pointless.
I didn t play since a long ago but it s obviously not enought if you only propose to solve the problem for players with 200 APM and more....
ps : If banelings are good against light units, what lurkers are supposed to be ?
Still in the process of making the Lurker weaker against a single type of unit (light or armored), it is possible to consider fewer spine coming out of the earth in order to make the damage more random against small sized units.
Zerg ground armies are to strong vs protoss, stop thinking protoss goes air because its easier to play then ground its not the case whatsoever.
Any game of ZVP if protoss does not have an air army ready for the lurker switch you will be dead, you must end the game before lurker count gets out of control or play the ultra late game air armies. That is your 2 options as protoss.
Zerg has a huuuuuuuuuge amount of viable unit comps and playstyles to choose from, protoss has but a few and is because of this extremely predictable. While zerg is really hard to read and scout for a protoss.
You people are now suggesting nerfing the little options protoss has left as if its protosses fault the matchup is still in this mess.
It's cause of the insane whining from the community of sc2 from twitch chat to pro gamers that this matchup has never been fixed because Blizzard has always been to dumb to fix it themselves and have always been influenced by popular opinion. It's a miracle and pure luck that TVZ is a good matchup or this game would have been DEAD before it ever took off as an esport.
If you wanna fix ZVP nerf zerg ground, it might hurt a few playstyles in TVZ but it must be done.
If you wanna make protoss air crap go for it just atleast let protoss have a chance to beat zerg ground armies with their own ground army.
Lurkers has been designed from what wikipedia say, against light units. Actually this isn t the case because Lurkers are good against all, undepending of armor type.
I just looked at attack speed and compare to tanks : Tanks fire rate = 0.74 Lurkers fire rate = 1.43 (because of time between each spines)
It seems to me clear now the best way to improve Lurker is to enhance their role as Blizzard wanted. Lurker has been designed as a beefy middle siege unit with low attack speed and a very large area of effect.
Now what you want is to push his role outside the limit designed by Blizzard, which means a very low attack speed, but as Lurkers already punish too much..., you have to increase his range from 10 to 12, keeping their number of spines but slightly spaced and tweak a little bit their damage from ( 20 + 10 against armored) to ( 15 + 15 against armored).
The question is : Are units with light armor enought fast to come closer of Lurkers and kill them.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/p7PyP0H.jpg)
