EPTLet's Talk About the Lurker (PvZ) - Page 5
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kingism
25 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On September 19 2021 01:22 kingism wrote: Zerg, being the defender, will always come on top of Terran and Protoss (the agressors) at the end of any meta cycle, since all attack strategies are figured out. Otherwise, Terran and Protoss will be OP (there is no deterministic way by zerg to defend an attack). Unfortunately, this is how the game works, as you can never perfectly balance 3 different races. Right now, we have more than figured out the current meta, and if there are no more patches coming (doesn't seem like it), then yes, expect most tournaments to be won by zergs unless they have a really off day. All protoss and Terran attack strategies are known and top zergs have memorized the counter strategy to the tee, thats why Raynor and Serral have a 90% (or even 100% I remember its something crazy) winrate against protoss. Serral is slightly over 70% on Aligulac, Reynor slightly below. Which also will include matches where they were developing to their current level, but also includes giant mismatches in things like online cups etc. By contrast Flash managed 70+ in all matchups, the vast majority of which were in the highest theatres of play in Brood War. Nobody in GSL comes that close to that from memory, and the top WC3 guys post absolute monster win rates too. As time goes by Zergs should perform a bit better, minus patches that reset the meta, in the manner you describe, but for a variety of reasons SC2 doesn’t quite lend itself to outright dominance in the manner you outline. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
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kingism
25 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On September 19 2021 02:26 kingism wrote: @WombaT, you are looking at the all time winrate (includes all the matches they lost when they first started out). If you look at the form tab (which is last 40 matches or so), Serral and Reynor both currently have a > 83% winrate against P. Actually, when I checked in July, Serral or Reynor's winrate was over 90% against P. I would say a close to 90% winrate at the highest level doesn't scream "balanced". No player from any race should be able to do that against the other top players in other races consistently (spanning months to year(s) like Serral and Reynor in this current patch) for a game to be truly balanced IMO. Fair but they’re both amazing players. There’s just not a Protoss player outside of Korea who can hang. Clem has been consistently beating them, and they’re very good at vT as well. Even a player as good as Heromarine is mincemeat to those two, almost every time. Outside of those two, Zerg don’t exactly dominate the rest of the Euro brackets, would say to me that Serral and Reynor are just atypically brilliant players. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
On September 19 2021 01:22 kingism wrote: Zerg, being the defender, will always come on top of Terran and Protoss (the agressors) at the end of any meta cycle, since all attack strategies are figured out. Otherwise, Terran and Protoss will be OP (there is no deterministic way by zerg to defend an attack). Unfortunately, this is how the game works, as you can never perfectly balance 3 different races. Right now, we have more than figured out the current meta, and if there are no more patches coming (doesn't seem like it), then yes, expect most tournaments to be won by zergs unless they have a really off day. All protoss and Terran attack strategies are known and top zergs have memorized the counter strategy to the tee, thats why Raynor and Serral have a 90% (or even 100% I remember its something crazy) winrate against protoss. This is true but oversimplified. What carries zerg right now is close to perfect information. Even in a figured out meta, if you have several aggressive builds and it's unclear to the zerg which one is coming, he could implement an incorrect defense. You then balance that because you want information to be hard to get, not impossible, otherwise the reactive race becomes underpowered. Today information gathering for high level zergs is relatively easy. There are only three or four different things that the toss could be doing, and some of them are countered in similar ways. The issue is basically that in the meta today whenever a zerg is caught off guard by something it's because they failed. You can't really outplay them strategically, you just have to hope that they fuck up, or that they're much worse at the game than you in which case you could outplay them mechanically. I can't imagine that it's fun to play in those conditions. And we should add that even though zerg is the reactive race, they also have a bunch of stuff that they used to throw at protoss in the few weeks where they thought airtoss was unbeatable. We don't see much swarmhosts or mutas anymore but those had good winrates as well, the reason why we don't see them is because there's not a lot of reasons to do that when you can just play standard and win unless you fuck up. | ||
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Husyelt
United States839 Posts
On September 19 2021 02:14 Vision_ wrote: Nobody see Dark takes his second map against Cure with a sad Nydus full of Lurkers into the natural of Cure ?.... That's what happens when a player sends his entire army home from the other side of the map. Cure should have just lifted and curbstomped Dark's natural and main or whatever expo's he wanted. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On September 19 2021 05:27 WombaT wrote: Fair but they’re both amazing players. There’s just not a Protoss player outside of Korea who can hang. Clem has been consistently beating them, and they’re very good at vT as well. Even a player as good as Heromarine is mincemeat to those two, almost every time. Outside of those two, Zerg don’t exactly dominate the rest of the Euro brackets, would say to me that Serral and Reynor are just atypically brilliant players. I agree with this, Clem actually has quite a good win rate vs. Reynor and earlier in the year 3 - 0d Serral, which obviously is a feat of fucking Herculean proportions. Can't really compare Serral to alot of people, who is really as good as him outside of the tip top Koreans? And even among the top Koreans Serral DISMANTLED Trap in the last finals so yea, Traps not exactly a slouch in PvZ. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On September 19 2021 05:53 Husyelt wrote: That's what happens when a player sends his entire army home from the other side of the map. Cure should have just lifted and curbstomped Dark's natural and main or whatever expo's he wanted. This kind of game played by Cure in this series consisted to win every fights along the game to stay ahead in the army population, oftenly you could compare workers count between the two guys and understand how much effort he does to keep alive a scary army at the expense of his economy (i.e very low numbers of workers despite mules, but Zerg doesn t settle in a end-game economy) The game was over because Dark couldn t extend his economy territory without trading cost efficienly, and finally Dark must lose the game in theory until such time he was enable to increase his army production. Of course you can be critiziced about the rally point of Cure, but at this point the game was in a deadly position for both sides and the reinforcement of Cure wouldn t have not be just-in-time basis,.. but lifting barracks won t change anything cause Cure would have lost his only advantage, i.e his army size despite his low eco mode. | ||
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TheCheapSkate
Slovenia317 Posts
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Vision_
877 Posts
On September 19 2021 20:33 TheCheapSkate wrote: I just saw dark beat 8 voids plus 4 carriers with 23 queens that is insane for a 150 mineral t1 unit You too... Damned Queens seems to carry well for free gas | ||
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freelifeffs
97 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On September 19 2021 22:48 freelifeffs wrote: nerf queen, buff hydra. shouldve been done years ago. that queen massing is so terrible both for players and for viewers. The early game is, from a balance perspective, the most critical phase (because it's totally unavoidable and SC2 snowballs hard). It's hard to imagine a hydra buff at all compensating for the early game weakening a queen nerf creates. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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Vision_
877 Posts
I just look at the number of units which have a bonus against light the result decieve me a bit : 9 only,... among 55 units in Legacy of The Void Along the developpement, programmers must have put aside the concept of light units being faster.... | ||
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warnull
United States280 Posts
On September 19 2021 20:33 TheCheapSkate wrote: I just saw dark beat 8 voids plus 4 carriers with 23 queens that is insane for a 150 mineral t1 unit The same army value in stimmed marines would do much better. Queens are not that great even for a t1 unit. | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On September 19 2021 23:01 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: The early game is, from a balance perspective, the most critical phase (because it's totally unavoidable and SC2 snowballs hard). It's hard to imagine a hydra buff at all compensating for the early game weakening a queen nerf creates. Yes you need to be armored or at least not light to face hellion, hellbats, oracle, adepts and banelings. But being armored means your defensive unit wouldn't be able to tank the few tank shots + would just die to any void ray attack. So zergs needs a polyvalent unit in defense in the early game which suffers some drawback offensively. Hydras won't solve it, suppressing mass queens defense would requiere a zerg hero unit like the msc and it would only be worse. At least, that's the only sort of unit I see as polyvalent enough to replace the queen as a core defensive unit in the early game. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
It would however make the game more dynamic, as in the units zerg builds to be safe in the early game could also be used to pressure, so both sides of the matchup would be a little less greedy and make more ground forces in the early and mid game. It would lead to more trades on both sides of the map, instead of zerg defending on mass queen all game or all inning with queens. It would also lead to robo openings becoming more meta in pvz, and having a mid game where protoss and zergs both split their army in two or more while protoss tries to secure a 4th base, leading to more ground trades and less passive stargate play / queen all ins. I really think overall it would make for a much better game, to play and to watch, than the current snooze fest of zerg defends on mass queens for 10minutes or all-in with queens, because they have no viable GroundtoAir unit other than queens. | ||
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ErikWM
8 Posts
On September 20 2021 07:10 Snakestyle11 wrote: They could just give ravagers are an attack against air, and nerf queens. Probably not a good idea to give hatch tech zerg a mobile anti air without changing a LOT of stuff with it. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
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