EPTLet's Talk About the Lurker (PvZ) - Page 4
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
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ElMakac
20 Posts
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luxon
United States112 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
I like the idea of rebalancing the game to make ground vs ground more viable, because I think ground based armies make for more interesting and fun games, but the suggested changes clearly favor one race over the other to the extent of making it hard to take Phantom seriously. | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On September 01 2021 01:13 NonY wrote: nope they're still doing balance patches as needed https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23544726/starcraft-ii-update-october-15-2020 that's cool, but i'm not holding my breath, seems like if they do patch the game it'll be a long time from now. They still haven't allowed purchase of the classic skins | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On September 02 2021 06:54 allmotor1 wrote: that's cool, but i'm not holding my breath, seems like if they do patch the game it'll be a long time from now. They still haven't allowed purchase of the classic skins (specifically the ultra/bc/carrier) | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
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LGC.Peppy
12 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25534 Posts
On September 02 2021 05:40 Snakestyle11 wrote: It wouldnt be a problem if the air units were designed properly like in broodwar. A quick air units that can attack ground and air should do very little damage versus ground, basically always lose vs ground to air units. (Void rays and mutas are too good vs hydras and stalkers) A slow air unit that attacks ground and air should still lose to ground to air units, but not as badly. (Carriers and BCs perform too good vs hydras and stalkers) A slow air unit that can only attack ground should always beat ground no matter what. (Current thor vs broodlords isnt good design at all) I feel like starcraft2 fails hard to follow these standard rules ( Even in magic the gathering, flying tag has a big stats cost). Carriers, BCs, void rays and mutalisks to a smaller extent should not perform this good against a unit like hydralisk or stalkers. Not only ground units have the weakness of terrain, but they are also vulnerable to super ground splash such as disruptors, colossus, lurkers and siege tanks; to which air units dont care. I feel like in 2021 the unit stats and abilities are breaking a lot of fundamental rules of RTS. Battlecruisers being a mobile early game worker harass unit is also another broken rule in my opinion. But i feel like the ground to air issues are the biggest ones Those core design decisions are problems, although the UI constraints and how the eco works also mitigate the power of air in BW. Mutas are pretty bloody good anyway, if you could select unlimited mutas and stack them they’d clean house. You don’t really have the eco to equivalently mass Carriers or BCs etc with relative ease. I do still 100% agree basically. I guess I’ll give my thoughts rules/of thumb and how I think they’re adhered to. 1. Skirmishers should get blasted if they aren’t finding holes of little resistance.This one is broadly true at least, outside of mutas vs Protoss (which is more an issue of them having garbage ground to air dps), and I guess phoenixes snowballing at times. Banshees and libs both don’t have a good time against defensive cover, I think this is broadly OK. 2. Generic air and capital ships should trade badly with anti-air specialists if out-positioned - This can be true, sometimes especially if marines are involved and get under stuff in sufficient number. Hydras less so, and stalkers lack of DPS and taking extra damage vs voids really hurts here. 3. Air siege should get wiped if you can flank or isolated, but be potent against ground from a distance or an advantageous - This is, broadly true I think. Getting pinned down against Tempests or broods and you’re going to have a bad time, if you can ambush them in the open they’ll have an extremely bad time. Although I really don’t like the Thor, it’s so bulky and slow to manoeuvre and either completely shreds things or does nothing, Jesus I wish they’d just stopped tweaking the Thor and gave a Goliath equivalent. Going back over things actually, in isolation I don’t think the air units deviate that far from solid general design concepts, although with the crucial caveat of - in isolation. Stalkers are pretty garbage in any kind of engagement where there’s a lot of something and you need to kill it quickly. Their damage output is so bad, although they’re excellent at stopping medivacs or against low numbers of skirmishers. Archons you have to fly over and start waving ‘hello I’m here’ and you might get hit. Likewise storm. Protoss having awful ground to air is a big part of the problem. Zergs have big gaps between the Queen-centric early and midgames up until they get all their potent anti-air tools later on. Those issues aside, it’s more other unit interactions and that you can blob your air + add a few big AoE hitters to zone out ground than each individual air unit being terribly designed. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
I would support an across the board anti-air buff to ground units for both Zerg and Protoss, maybe give Hydras and Stalkers some baseline damage bonus vs. air, its not a very elegant change but neither was the spore crawler anti muta buff but that still had very positive effects on the game. Sadly, this "balance team" or whatever we have going on now doesn't even give monthly or bi monthly updates on how they feel the state of the game is, which is a shame because SC2 really has always had more potential. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On September 03 2021 00:50 Beelzebub1 wrote: The bad ground to air is a very good point, the only reason units like the Viper were even introduced is because Zerg had very limited ways of defending themselves against mid/late game air armies, same for Stalkers and just how terrible they are vs. air units of more or less anything other then small numbers of medivacs. I would support an across the board anti-air buff to ground units for both Zerg and Protoss, maybe give Hydras and Stalkers some baseline damage bonus vs. air, its not a very elegant change but neither was the spore crawler anti muta buff but that still had very positive effects on the game. Sadly, this "balance team" or whatever we have going on now doesn't even give monthly or bi monthly updates on how they feel the state of the game is, which is a shame because SC2 really has always had more potential. They should've increased the supply cost for massive units years ago, make it 8 instead of 6. Makes them less mass able but they can keep some strength and indirectly buffs midgame units | ||
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KNUCKLEHEAD
United States18 Posts
And while all that tech is happening, which is basically like Tier 4 status, Zerg is vulnerable to almost any kind of all-in from protoss. And all Z will have is hydras...which are hard countered by damn near every toss unit except maybe low numbers of VRs. Also, how does zerg counter an HT/archon based army? Broodlords?? Another tier 4 tech that takes forever. I'm not sure what the complaint is here. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On September 03 2021 01:07 91matt wrote: They should've increased the supply cost for massive units years ago, make it 8 instead of 6. Makes them less mass able but they can keep some strength and indirectly buffs midgame units Wouldn't be a bad change either, I know capital ships are a staple Starcraft unit so I know getting rid of them entirely is impossible but I've personally never found Brood Lords nor Carriers exciting units to watch or play against. The BC teleport thing also caused one of the stupidest metagames in Starcraft history so yea also not a fan lol I think this all just goes to show why TvZ is the best match up in the game, you rarely see masses of capital ships because Zergs have great responses to BC and Terran has great responses to BL, so it's more of a mid game unit tug of war. ZvP is like, "If I attack, I die, so I just either survive timing attack or wait for him/her to make a mistake first." Much less action packed  | ||
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uselless
92 Posts
 It was really beginner-friendly and it made complete sense, now I want to hear a detailed explanation for why it should stay the same | ||
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Railgan
Switzerland1507 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On September 18 2021 22:33 Railgan wrote: To show just how stupid the " 8 lurkers are unbeatable argument for ground toss" here is Maxpax killing 12+ lurkers of reynor while barely losing anything by just amoving into them. https://clips.twitch.tv/TsundereBovineButterflySaltBae-rSpuW1Py3poSAPV1 You're not serious right? 12 Lurkers without any support against an almost maxed out Protoss army.... Not to mention Maxpax then attacked and lost everything to the left-over Lurkers Reynor had | ||
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TheCheapSkate
Slovenia316 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On September 18 2021 22:48 Charoisaur wrote: You're not serious right? 12 Lurkers without any support against an almost maxed out Protoss army.... Not to mention Maxpax then attacked and lost everything to the left-over Lurkers Reynor had The point of this thread was 8 lurkers counter every protoss ground. Here we saw 4, lurkers getting attacked, reynor retreat them with 2 losses and dispatch other two on his bases, 7 other lurkers are engaged in the chasing but flee back into 7 other lurkers, considering he lost one lurker on the first pack it was 13 lurkers during the final engagement. The flank at the end helped but the fight was largely frontal, the spines always went against the main army. Zelotes aside, he lost 3 archons, 2 immortals while killing 16 lurkers, 2 fleeing in the process, the lurkers had no support, that's fair, maxpax outplayed reynor on this one and got a superb trade on a frontal assault against lurkers. As far as the toss max out army, well you're mostly right, maxpax had zelotes on harass and 4 immortals and a good chunk harassing. During the fight later, maxpax pushed with a shit ton of zelotes as buffer without his 3 archons who had max shield while the lurkers were sustained by queens transfuse, his army value wasn't that good when he pushed, prolly inferior or equal at best to reynor's. It's the same dynamic as queen/ultra vs bio which can't os them. If he waited a bit, I am pretty sure he was crushing it. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On September 18 2021 23:45 stilt wrote: The point of this thread was 8 lurkers counter every protoss ground. Here we saw 4, lurkers getting attacked, reynor retreat them with 2 losses and dispatch other two on his bases, 7 other lurkers are engaged in the chasing but flee back into 7 other lurkers, considering he lost one lurker on the first pack it was 13 lurkers during the final engagement. The flank at the end helped but the fight was largely frontal, the spines always went against the main army. Zelotes aside, he lost 3 archons, 2 immortals while killing 16 lurkers, 2 fleeing in the process, the lurkers had no support, that's fair, maxpax outplayed reynor on this one and got a superb trade on a frontal assault against lurkers. As far as the toss max out army, well you're mostly right, maxpax had zelotes on harass and 4 immortals and a good chunk harassing. During the fight later, maxpax pushed with a shit ton of zelotes as buffer without his 3 archons who had max shield while the lurkers were sustained by queens transfuse, his army value wasn't that good when he pushed, prolly inferior or equal at best to reynor's. It's the same dynamic as queen/ultra vs bio which can't os them. If he waited a bit, I am pretty sure he was crushing it. I think the point of this thread is that an army with 8+ lurkers beat every Protoss ground composition, not that 8 Lurkers alone beat everything..... ofc nobody believes that, that would be stupid | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25534 Posts
Just as 5 disruptors wandering around on their own are a rather different prospect from 5 sitting embedded in a maxed army. | ||
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