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Greatest SC2 Protoss player of all-time?

Forum Index > SC2 General
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StuDToSs
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
116 Posts
June 21 2021 20:12 GMT
#1
Who's the greatest Protoss player of all-time in terms of SC2?

This sort of gets overlooked because Terrans and Zergs have been far more successful. For example, there's no Protoss player AFAIK who's accomplished close to what Maru or Rogue have done.

It seems like there are a bunch of players you could make a case for depending on what criteria you give more importance to:

Stats
Trap
Parting
Zest
MC
Classic
Rain
sOs
herO (not Liquid HerO)
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
June 21 2021 20:18 GMT
#2
For me it's either Rain or Zest. Rain achieved consistently great results his entire career. He wasn't the flashiest player but he got the job done. Zest is a player marked by mind-bogglingly high high's and equally mind-bogglingly low low's. Protoss has looked its most oppressive in Zest's hands, and his level of domination during the first year of LotV (especially that year's first GSL) is something I don't think another Protoss player has achieved in SC2's history.
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
starvingbox
Profile Joined August 2020
United States44 Posts
June 21 2021 20:40 GMT
#3
Wow, it's actually somewhat surprising how much weaker this list is compared to Terran and Zerg.
Serimek
Profile Joined August 2011
France2274 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-21 21:02:30
June 21 2021 20:43 GMT
#4
Rain should have been the GOAT Protoss, but him not playing LotV at all weakens this statement.

Overall, Zest.
SC2 is the best game to watch and was the best to play before I grew old and slow...
Linkinparktoss
Profile Joined March 2017
16 Posts
June 21 2021 20:47 GMT
#5
sOs, I will die on this hill! he has a bagpack brain and he is the only 2x WCS Champion!
He always felt the most "protoss" to me. And even after his primes he was still good for upsetting Maru 3:0 at WCS or just recently Ruining TYs Super tournament hopes.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15919 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-21 20:56:50
June 21 2021 20:50 GMT
#6
Zest > sOs = Stats > Classic > herO = Rain > MC > PartinG > Trap = Dear
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
tennisl
Profile Joined March 2018
United Kingdom44 Posts
June 21 2021 20:56 GMT
#7
1.sOs
2. Stats
3. Classic
4. Zest
5. MC
the rest
Sprog
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand83 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-21 22:48:53
June 21 2021 21:18 GMT
#8
I think this could only ever be a list as it really depends on era.

Parting, Zest, MC, Stats, sOs, Classic, Neeb, Astrea, ShowTime, Probe.

Edit: KiwiKaKi, HUK, Trap
Serimek
Profile Joined August 2011
France2274 Posts
June 21 2021 21:24 GMT
#9
On June 22 2021 06:18 Sprog wrote:
I think this could only ever be a list as it really depends on era.

Parting, Zest, MC, Stats, sOs, Classic, Neeb, Astrea, ShowTime, Probe


Cheeky Probe.
SC2 is the best game to watch and was the best to play before I grew old and slow...
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
June 21 2021 21:42 GMT
#10
MC - he is to Protoss in SC2 what Slayers Boxer was to Terran in BW

IMO, if there isn't a consensus great (which based on the comments doesn't seem to be one), then you go with the guy who did it first and paved the way
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
June 21 2021 21:55 GMT
#11
1 Trap - I don't know what defines his playstyle, just a great macro toss that can do anything and win with it.
2 Parting - Soul train innovator, aggressive, great micro, solid macro behind
3 Stats - Great defensive macro toss


Wildcard : Zest - Maxes out on gateway units and wins, but definitely can play macro games. Has his own style that works.
I guess you could argue Rain but it's been too long since I've seen his play. Maybe I'd place Rain first if my memory served me better.
MC is just too far ago, literally playing a different game. He was great for his time, but I think he would get destroyed by today's player, even given he would be at his best form hypothetically (unpopular opinion).
Shathe
Profile Joined July 2017
Hungary422 Posts
June 21 2021 21:56 GMT
#12
Probably Zest, with so many wins and second places. Even though he wasn't dominant in the last few years.
AzAlexZ
Profile Joined September 2016
Australia3303 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-21 22:14:47
June 21 2021 22:04 GMT
#13
It's hard to pick, the style of Protoss makes it so that they have a lot of great players, compared to the few candidates for Zerg and Terran (who admittedly have higher ceilings).

For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers.
Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has;
Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time;
Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers.

The Definers:
MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss;
Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss;
sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss.

The Jack of All Trades:
herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great.
Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense.
Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss

The Polishers:
PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul'
Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor.
Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired.

Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP
Faker is the GOAT!
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1449 Posts
June 21 2021 23:36 GMT
#14
Stats
Rubicant1
Profile Joined October 2019
115 Posts
June 22 2021 00:00 GMT
#15
Hmm, any combo of Rain, Zest or Stats works for me, personally.
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
June 22 2021 00:23 GMT
#16
That's a very hard question.

Probably still MC, he literally was Protoss in early WoL and remained competitive for years racking up victories and placements; if not him, Zest.

Stats would have been the best if he were capable of winning one of the three World championship finals he played just as sOs, if he could win a Code S; I also think Rain would have been if he played LoTV instead of BW.
Trap still has approximately one year(I guess) to secure the title but he would need at least a couple of heavy titles to do so.
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2841 Posts
June 22 2021 06:29 GMT
#17
I think Stats is the most solid.

aka wilted_kale
mark_lenders
Profile Joined July 2019
74 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-22 09:20:40
June 22 2021 09:20 GMT
#18
imagine if stats won half the finals he lost. there would be no doubt about him being the greatest
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
June 22 2021 09:43 GMT
#19
Rain. Had sOs ended his career during similar time like Rain, it would have been harder.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6900 Posts
June 22 2021 11:10 GMT
#20
BossToss is the goat of trash talk! Titles and overall play, not sure. ChinToss or Rain I guess
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25070 Posts
June 22 2021 11:19 GMT
#21
More so than the other two races this is more a case of being amongst the greatest as there’s both not one outstanding candidate but rather a lot of good ones.

Rain maybe if he’d stayed and stayed in shape could have been the one, possibly. Legacy as a game really neutered sOs’ particular strengths so he dropped off a fair bit.

If not already then certainly if he continues in anything like his form of the last two years then Trap has earned his spot amongst the pantheon.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
MarianoSC2
Profile Joined June 2015
Slovakia1855 Posts
June 22 2021 11:24 GMT
#22
1. Zest
2. sOs
3. Stats
4. Rain
5. MC
6. Classic
7. Trap
8. Parting
9. herO
10. Dear

Rain would have been the best by quite a big margin if he played LOTV I am pretty sure about that. He was the one who defined the macro play of Protoss and his defense, strategy and control was second to none.
Top 11: Rogue, Maru, Inno, Zest, Life, sOs, Stats, Dark, soO, Mvp, Classic/Trap/MC/Rain
Aeceus
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom1278 Posts
June 22 2021 11:42 GMT
#23
Its Stats with sOs and Zest a close 2nd I think.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3366 Posts
June 22 2021 11:44 GMT
#24
Stats>Zest>MC>rest, I wanna say.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Solio
Profile Joined June 2016
France145 Posts
June 22 2021 12:20 GMT
#25
Depends on the criteria, the strongest protoss we've ever had in terms of skill is Trap but he is not the most accomplished one (Zest is).
FuRong
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand3089 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-02 09:10:13
June 22 2021 15:16 GMT
#26
For what it's worth, these are the stats from the Premier finals/victories thread. I'm just posting to add to the discussion, not to prove any point.

I updated it with Trap's recent wins.

Premier gold medals:

7 = (P)Trap, (P)Neeb (4 if you don't count NA only events)
6 = (P)MC, (P)Zest
5 = (P)herO, (P)LiquidHerO, (P)Classic, (P)Stats, (P)Rain, (P)sOs, (P)PartinG

It's interesting that there are so many on exactly five.

Premier finals:

16 = (P)MC
13 = (P)Trap, (P)Stats
12 = (P)PartinG (notably, none since his comeback)
11 = (P)Zest
10 = (P)herO, (P)sOs, (P)Neeb (6 if you don't count NA only events)
9 = (P)LiquidHerO
7 = (P)Rain
6 = (P)Classic

I think it all comes down to how you value golds/silvers, deep runs, performance in the biggest events, consistency, length of period at/near the top, contribution to teams and 'aura of formidability.'

Given the current status of players on this list, Trap seems the most likely to add to his legacy, especially with the number of wins he has racked up over the past half year.
Don't hate the player, hate the game
PipeR.42
Profile Joined October 2015
United States4 Posts
June 22 2021 16:28 GMT
#27
I mean, if you want to use a (somewhat flawed) objective measure like earnings, the top 5 would be:

1. sOs
2. Stats
3. Zest
4. Neeb
5. MC
There is no balance, only war.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
June 22 2021 16:30 GMT
#28
Going by my eye test, I'd say Rain was the best Protoss that has ever played, in terms of raw skill and mechanics. He was always dangerous, and could play both aggressive and defensive styles very well. Problem is, his SC2 career was too short and he didnt play in LoTV which is in my opinion the best designed version of the game (well after the update that removed the MSC anyway) so it's hard to really give him the best of all time honor.


So going by results, eye test, and someone who's had success in LoTV. I'm going to have to go with Zest. He's been the most innovative Protoss player for years, always pushing the meta. He's also tied for having the most Code S titles of any Protoss player with MC who I don't count because he won all of his in early WoL, so Zest's titles are a lot more impressive.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
June 22 2021 16:34 GMT
#29
Min Chul, the Boss Toss.
SC2 Mapmaker
Howard_Kao
Profile Joined September 2018
China261 Posts
June 22 2021 17:37 GMT
#30
I'd say there ain't a best protoss, but probably the best pair of protoss: stats and zest. Ever since kespa teams disbanded, zest invented so many openers and stats refined them to details so much. Almost 80% of the common protoss openers in past 5 years are crafts of their hand.
"You don't need a gsl champion, you don't need a esl champion. I feel like I'm just a normal man. I just practice very hard this time, like 15hrs everyday" Oliveira 2023
esReveR
Profile Joined February 2010
United States567 Posts
June 22 2021 20:42 GMT
#31
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 22 2021 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:
It's hard to pick, the style of Protoss makes it so that they have a lot of great players, compared to the few candidates for Zerg and Terran (who admittedly have higher ceilings).

For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers.
Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has;
Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time;
Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers.

The Definers:
MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss;
Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss;
sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss.

The Jack of All Trades:
herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great.
Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense.
Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss

The Polishers:
PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul'
Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor.
Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired.

Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP


Really? Zest is 100% a definer. Who do you think started the current pvz void opener meta, which is just the most recent time Zest pushed the meta.
Skill is relative.
StuDToSs
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
116 Posts
July 02 2021 00:11 GMT
#32
On June 23 2021 05:42 esReveR wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 22 2021 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:
It's hard to pick, the style of Protoss makes it so that they have a lot of great players, compared to the few candidates for Zerg and Terran (who admittedly have higher ceilings).

For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers.
Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has;
Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time;
Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers.

The Definers:
MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss;
Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss;
sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss.

The Jack of All Trades:
herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great.
Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense.
Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss

The Polishers:
PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul'
Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor.
Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired.

Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP


Really? Zest is 100% a definer. Who do you think started the current pvz void opener meta, which is just the most recent time Zest pushed the meta.


Yep seems like the consensus puts Zest as one of the pioneers.
Obamarauder
Profile Joined June 2015
697 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-02 00:27:11
July 02 2021 00:27 GMT
#33
If u look at the span of who's been at the top for the longest time then it has to be Stats or Zest. You can make a case for Rain or MC if they haven't retired
ReachTheSky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3294 Posts
July 02 2021 00:27 GMT
#34
Liquid`Hero and MC were my favorite toss players.
TL+ Member
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
687 Posts
July 02 2021 02:56 GMT
#35
Rain towards the peak of his career (early hots) was probably one of the highest peaking P's we've seen in a while. We've seen people with good winrates, crazy strats, but nobody like Rain who could play every game the exact same for the first 5-10 minutes, take zero risks, end up behind, and still win just because he was that favored in a macro game. Blind cannons, late thirds, metronomic timings, everything that screamed to be sniped but still worked b/c he was just that good.

It was a different era, and it would be hard to be able to play like that today (2018 Serral comes to mind), but I think it's worth mentioning.
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
AzAlexZ
Profile Joined September 2016
Australia3303 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-02 03:11:16
July 02 2021 03:09 GMT
#36
On June 23 2021 05:42 esReveR wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 22 2021 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:
It's hard to pick, the style of Protoss makes it so that they have a lot of great players, compared to the few candidates for Zerg and Terran (who admittedly have higher ceilings).

For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers.
Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has;
Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time;
Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers.

The Definers:
MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss;
Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss;
sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss.

The Jack of All Trades:
herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great.
Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense.
Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss

The Polishers:
PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul'
Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor.
Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired.

Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP


Really? Zest is 100% a definer. Who do you think started the current pvz void opener meta, which is just the most recent time Zest pushed the meta.

You have completely misunderstood what I mean by a Definer.
Sure Zest maybe someone who devised a new meta opener, but that will go away someday with patch changes. But Rain was the first person to start a completely new (defensive) playstyle that was unseen before he came along, that is still going on to this day, across 3 different SC2 game versions.
Zest jump-started one 'slightly Innovative' meta opener in LOTV that existed in WoL well before Zest was playing SC2, whereas Rain defined an entire playstyle from head to toe by himself.
so yeah you're kinda wrong
Faker is the GOAT!
AzAlexZ
Profile Joined September 2016
Australia3303 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-02 03:16:05
July 02 2021 03:13 GMT
#37
On June 23 2021 00:16 FuRong wrote:
For what it's worth, these are the stats from the Premier finals/victories thread. I'm just posting to add to the discussion, not to prove any point.

I updated it with Trap's recent wins.

Premier gold medals:

7 = (P)Trap, (P)Neeb (3 if you don't count NA only events)
6 = (P)MC, (P)Zest
5 = (P)herO, (P)LiquidHerO, (P)Classic, (P)Stats, (P)Rain, (P)sOs, (P)PartinG

It's interesting that there are so many on exactly five.

Premier finals:

16 = (P)MC
13 = (P)Trap, (P)Stats
12 = (P)PartinG (notably, none since his comeback)
11 = (P)Zest
10 = (P)herO, (P)sOs, (P)Neeb (6 if you don't count NA only events)
9 = (P)LiquidHerO
7 = (P)Rain
6 = (P)Classic

I think it all comes down to how you value golds/silvers, deep runs, performance in the biggest events, consistency, length of period at/near the top, contribution to teams and 'aura of formidability.'

Given the current status of players on this list, Trap seems the most likely to add to his legacy, especially with the number of wins he has racked up over the past half year.

Neeb has 4 if you don't count NA only
KeSPA and 3 WCS titles from 2017
Faker is the GOAT!
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
July 02 2021 03:24 GMT
#38
It's Parting obviously.
No will to live, no wish to die
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-02 08:42:38
July 02 2021 08:41 GMT
#39
On July 02 2021 11:56 yubo56 wrote:
Rain towards the peak of his career (early hots) was probably one of the highest peaking P's we've seen in a while. We've seen people with good winrates, crazy strats, but nobody like Rain who could play every game the exact same for the first 5-10 minutes, take zero risks, end up behind, and still win just because he was that favored in a macro game. Blind cannons, late thirds, metronomic timings, everything that screamed to be sniped but still worked b/c he was just that good.

It was a different era, and it would be hard to be able to play like that today (2018 Serral comes to mind), but I think it's worth mentioning.

OTOH it's not like he's bad at BW either which makes you think he would a force to be reckon with. But he chose BW when he recovered.

Edit> For me he's the only player who doesn't need them results. Probably the strongest Protoss we've ever seen.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2749 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-02 09:21:58
July 02 2021 09:17 GMT
#40
For me it's Zest.
The dude did quite well in PL.
And there aren't much protoss who won 2 gsl and got to 1 final in past wol time.
None did 3 finals of katowice winning 1.
At his best in 2014 and 2016, he looked really dominating, he was seen as a fucking juggernaud especially in pvp/z while recently he is amazing, overshadowed by Trap ofc but he is still performing really well.
None has his longetivity at the top either despite high and low, he always remained a top 5 of his race able to defeat anybody. The large number of small tournaments he won shows he was a bit more regular than some could imagine.

Considering his influence of the meta who is imo greater than any other toss in the past 5 years, he is definetely an innovator and a big one. While Trap's runs are impressive and I consider his wins as Premier tournament, they still lack a bit of prestige imo (no kato, no regular season gsl win basically).

To sum up : for the caliber of his wins, his longevity and his strong influence on the meta, Zest is the protoss goat, by a large margin imo.
jodljodl
Profile Joined October 2016
153 Posts
July 02 2021 09:40 GMT
#41
I don't think there's a toss-GOAT. Imo on the one hand there are reasonable arguments to call Classic, Parting, Stats, Zest, Rain, sOs or MC the toss-GOAT. On the other hand for each player there are reasonable arguments why they are mosdef not the toss-GOAT.

As for herO and trap: Both are awesome sc2 players and obviously among the best toss of all time. But i personally feel like they are not (yet? :> ) as accomplished as the aforementioned players.

Straying off topic a little: When it comes to Zerg i feel similiar. There is a bunch of outstanding contenders for zerg-GOAT (eg. rogue, dark, soo, soulkey and serral) but none that is above all else.
Only when it comes to Terran i feel comfortable to call Maru the terran-GOAT. (But i don't think/feel like there's a need to call Maru the terran-GOAT.)

Last but not least i feel like serral deserves so much credit for his unbelievable achievement of breaking the korean rule over foreign-land Which by itself distinguishes him from all other players for now and all eternity. (and im such a korea fanboy... )
Kim Doh Woo
Rescawen
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland1028 Posts
July 02 2021 11:12 GMT
#42
stats
Amumoman
Profile Joined July 2020
153 Posts
July 02 2021 12:52 GMT
#43
Not considering borings things like consistency and only judging by potential/peak state, I’d go with Zest
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-02 13:35:49
July 02 2021 13:35 GMT
#44
On July 02 2021 18:40 jodljodl wrote:
I don't think there's a toss-GOAT. Imo on the one hand there are reasonable arguments to call Classic, Parting, Stats, Zest, Rain, sOs or MC the toss-GOAT. On the other hand for each player there are reasonable arguments why they are mosdef not the toss-GOAT.

As for herO and trap: Both are awesome sc2 players and obviously among the best toss of all time. But i personally feel like they are not (yet? :> ) as accomplished as the aforementioned players.

Straying off topic a little: When it comes to Zerg i feel similiar. There is a bunch of outstanding contenders for zerg-GOAT (eg. rogue, dark, soo, soulkey and serral) but none that is above all else.
Only when it comes to Terran i feel comfortable to call Maru the terran-GOAT. (But i don't think/feel like there's a need to call Maru the terran-GOAT.)

Last but not least i feel like serral deserves so much credit for his unbelievable achievement of breaking the korean rule over foreign-land Which by itself distinguishes him from all other players for now and all eternity. (and im such a korea fanboy... )

toss-goat thread. Appreciate Serral response Has he ever played as Protoss? I believe he was offracing Terran Let's appreciate Scarlett! Scarlett as the Protoss GOAT!

if we're talking about herO v Trap then herO. Trap's boring, herO was entertaining most of his career if not all.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
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