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StuDToSs
116 Posts
This sort of gets overlooked because Terrans and Zergs have been far more successful. For example, there's no Protoss player AFAIK who's accomplished close to what Maru or Rogue have done. It seems like there are a bunch of players you could make a case for depending on what criteria you give more importance to: Stats Trap Parting Zest MC Classic Rain sOs herO (not Liquid HerO) | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
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starvingbox
United States44 Posts
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
Overall, Zest. | ||
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Linkinparktoss
16 Posts
He always felt the most "protoss" to me. And even after his primes he was still good for upsetting Maru 3:0 at WCS or just recently Ruining TYs Super tournament hopes. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15919 Posts
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tennisl
United Kingdom44 Posts
2. Stats 3. Classic 4. Zest 5. MC the rest | ||
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Sprog
New Zealand83 Posts
Parting, Zest, MC, Stats, sOs, Classic, Neeb, Astrea, ShowTime, Probe. Edit: KiwiKaKi, HUK, Trap | ||
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
On June 22 2021 06:18 Sprog wrote: I think this could only ever be a list as it really depends on era. Parting, Zest, MC, Stats, sOs, Classic, Neeb, Astrea, ShowTime, Probe Cheeky Probe. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
IMO, if there isn't a consensus great (which based on the comments doesn't seem to be one), then you go with the guy who did it first and paved the way | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
2 Parting - Soul train innovator, aggressive, great micro, solid macro behind 3 Stats - Great defensive macro toss Wildcard : Zest - Maxes out on gateway units and wins, but definitely can play macro games. Has his own style that works. I guess you could argue Rain but it's been too long since I've seen his play. Maybe I'd place Rain first if my memory served me better. MC is just too far ago, literally playing a different game. He was great for his time, but I think he would get destroyed by today's player, even given he would be at his best form hypothetically (unpopular opinion). | ||
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers. Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has; Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time; Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers. The Definers: MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss; Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss; sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss. The Jack of All Trades: herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great. Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense. Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss The Polishers: PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul' Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor. Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired. Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP | ||
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followZeRoX
Serbia1449 Posts
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Probably still MC, he literally was Protoss in early WoL and remained competitive for years racking up victories and placements; if not him, Zest. Stats would have been the best if he were capable of winning one of the three World championship finals he played just as sOs, if he could win a Code S; I also think Rain would have been if he played LoTV instead of BW. Trap still has approximately one year(I guess) to secure the title but he would need at least a couple of heavy titles to do so. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2840 Posts
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mark_lenders
74 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6899 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25050 Posts
Rain maybe if he’d stayed and stayed in shape could have been the one, possibly. Legacy as a game really neutered sOs’ particular strengths so he dropped off a fair bit. If not already then certainly if he continues in anything like his form of the last two years then Trap has earned his spot amongst the pantheon. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
2. sOs 3. Stats 4. Rain 5. MC 6. Classic 7. Trap 8. Parting 9. herO 10. Dear Rain would have been the best by quite a big margin if he played LOTV I am pretty sure about that. He was the one who defined the macro play of Protoss and his defense, strategy and control was second to none. | ||
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Aeceus
United Kingdom1278 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3364 Posts
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Solio
France145 Posts
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
I updated it with Trap's recent wins. Premier gold medals: 7 =  Trap, Neeb (4 if you don't count NA only events)6 = MC, Zest5 = herO, LiquidHerO, Classic, Stats, Rain, sOs, PartinGIt's interesting that there are so many on exactly five. Premier finals: 16 = MC13 = Trap, Stats12 = PartinG (notably, none since his comeback)11 = Zest10 = herO, sOs, Neeb (6 if you don't count NA only events)9 = LiquidHerO7 = Rain6 = ClassicI think it all comes down to how you value golds/silvers, deep runs, performance in the biggest events, consistency, length of period at/near the top, contribution to teams and 'aura of formidability.' Given the current status of players on this list, Trap seems the most likely to add to his legacy, especially with the number of wins he has racked up over the past half year. | ||
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PipeR.42
United States4 Posts
1. sOs 2. Stats 3. Zest 4. Neeb 5. MC | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
So going by results, eye test, and someone who's had success in LoTV. I'm going to have to go with Zest. He's been the most innovative Protoss player for years, always pushing the meta. He's also tied for having the most Code S titles of any Protoss player with MC who I don't count because he won all of his in early WoL, so Zest's titles are a lot more impressive. | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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Howard_Kao
China261 Posts
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esReveR
United States567 Posts
On June 22 2021 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote: It's hard to pick, the style of Protoss makes it so that they have a lot of great players, compared to the few candidates for Zerg and Terran (who admittedly have higher ceilings). For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers. Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has; Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time; Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers. The Definers: MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss; Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss; sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss. The Jack of All Trades: herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great. Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense. Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss The Polishers: PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul' Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor. Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired. Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP Really? Zest is 100% a definer. Who do you think started the current pvz void opener meta, which is just the most recent time Zest pushed the meta. | ||
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StuDToSs
116 Posts
On June 23 2021 05:42 esReveR wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2021 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote: It's hard to pick, the style of Protoss makes it so that they have a lot of great players, compared to the few candidates for Zerg and Terran (who admittedly have higher ceilings). For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers. Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has; Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time; Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers. The Definers: MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss; Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss; sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss. The Jack of All Trades: herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great. Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense. Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss The Polishers: PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul' Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor. Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired. Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP Really? Zest is 100% a definer. Who do you think started the current pvz void opener meta, which is just the most recent time Zest pushed the meta. Yep seems like the consensus puts Zest as one of the pioneers. | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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yubo56
687 Posts
It was a different era, and it would be hard to be able to play like that today (2018 Serral comes to mind), but I think it's worth mentioning. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On June 23 2021 05:42 esReveR wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2021 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote: It's hard to pick, the style of Protoss makes it so that they have a lot of great players, compared to the few candidates for Zerg and Terran (who admittedly have higher ceilings). For me at least, I have to split them into 3 types: Definers, Jack of All Trades, and Polishers. Definers: defined a style of Protoss that went on for as long as the game has; Jack of All Trades: good at everything, but never the best at any point in time; Polishers: took the mantle or improved upon the groundwork laid by the Definers. The Definers: MC: the one who defined the aggressive style of Protoss; Rain: the one who defined the defensive style of Protoss; sOs: the one who defined the strategical adaptability of Protoss. The Jack of All Trades: herO: great mind games, superb offense, defense not so great. Classic: decent at mind games, good defense, and great offense. Trap: look no further than Tastosis commentary, they literally call him the Jack of All trades Protoss The Polishers: PartinG: the guy who built upon MC's aggression with his 'soul' Zest: the guy who refined Rain's playstyle while adding his own risk factor. Stats: the guy that took up Rain's Mantle after Rain retired. Honorable mention to Neeb as the one who changed LOTV PvP Really? Zest is 100% a definer. Who do you think started the current pvz void opener meta, which is just the most recent time Zest pushed the meta. You have completely misunderstood what I mean by a Definer. Sure Zest maybe someone who devised a new meta opener, but that will go away someday with patch changes. But Rain was the first person to start a completely new (defensive) playstyle that was unseen before he came along, that is still going on to this day, across 3 different SC2 game versions. Zest jump-started one 'slightly Innovative' meta opener in LOTV that existed in WoL well before Zest was playing SC2, whereas Rain defined an entire playstyle from head to toe by himself. so yeah you're kinda wrong | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On June 23 2021 00:16 FuRong wrote: For what it's worth, these are the stats from the Premier finals/victories thread. I'm just posting to add to the discussion, not to prove any point. I updated it with Trap's recent wins. Premier gold medals: 7 = Trap, Neeb (3 if you don't count NA only events)6 = MC, Zest5 = herO, LiquidHerO, Classic, Stats, Rain, sOs, PartinGIt's interesting that there are so many on exactly five. Premier finals: 16 = MC13 = Trap, Stats12 = PartinG (notably, none since his comeback)11 = Zest10 = herO, sOs, Neeb (6 if you don't count NA only events)9 = LiquidHerO7 = Rain6 = ClassicI think it all comes down to how you value golds/silvers, deep runs, performance in the biggest events, consistency, length of period at/near the top, contribution to teams and 'aura of formidability.' Given the current status of players on this list, Trap seems the most likely to add to his legacy, especially with the number of wins he has racked up over the past half year. Neeb has 4 if you don't count NA only KeSPA and 3 WCS titles from 2017 | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12155 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 02 2021 11:56 yubo56 wrote: Rain towards the peak of his career (early hots) was probably one of the highest peaking P's we've seen in a while. We've seen people with good winrates, crazy strats, but nobody like Rain who could play every game the exact same for the first 5-10 minutes, take zero risks, end up behind, and still win just because he was that favored in a macro game. Blind cannons, late thirds, metronomic timings, everything that screamed to be sniped but still worked b/c he was just that good. It was a different era, and it would be hard to be able to play like that today (2018 Serral comes to mind), but I think it's worth mentioning. OTOH it's not like he's bad at BW either which makes you think he would a force to be reckon with. But he chose BW when he recovered. Edit> For me he's the only player who doesn't need them results. Probably the strongest Protoss we've ever seen. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
The dude did quite well in PL. And there aren't much protoss who won 2 gsl and got to 1 final in past wol time. None did 3 finals of katowice winning 1. At his best in 2014 and 2016, he looked really dominating, he was seen as a fucking juggernaud especially in pvp/z while recently he is amazing, overshadowed by Trap ofc but he is still performing really well. None has his longetivity at the top either despite high and low, he always remained a top 5 of his race able to defeat anybody. The large number of small tournaments he won shows he was a bit more regular than some could imagine. Considering his influence of the meta who is imo greater than any other toss in the past 5 years, he is definetely an innovator and a big one. While Trap's runs are impressive and I consider his wins as Premier tournament, they still lack a bit of prestige imo (no kato, no regular season gsl win basically). To sum up : for the caliber of his wins, his longevity and his strong influence on the meta, Zest is the protoss goat, by a large margin imo. | ||
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jodljodl
152 Posts
As for herO and trap: Both are awesome sc2 players and obviously among the best toss of all time. But i personally feel like they are not (yet? :> ) as accomplished as the aforementioned players. Straying off topic a little: When it comes to Zerg i feel similiar. There is a bunch of outstanding contenders for zerg-GOAT (eg. rogue, dark, soo, soulkey and serral) but none that is above all else. Only when it comes to Terran i feel comfortable to call Maru the terran-GOAT. (But i don't think/feel like there's a need to call Maru the terran-GOAT.) Last but not least i feel like serral deserves so much credit for his unbelievable achievement of breaking the korean rule over foreign-land  Which by itself distinguishes him from all other players for now and all eternity. (and im such a korea fanboy... ) | ||
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Rescawen
Finland1028 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 02 2021 18:40 jodljodl wrote: I don't think there's a toss-GOAT. Imo on the one hand there are reasonable arguments to call Classic, Parting, Stats, Zest, Rain, sOs or MC the toss-GOAT. On the other hand for each player there are reasonable arguments why they are mosdef not the toss-GOAT. As for herO and trap: Both are awesome sc2 players and obviously among the best toss of all time. But i personally feel like they are not (yet? :> ) as accomplished as the aforementioned players. Straying off topic a little: When it comes to Zerg i feel similiar. There is a bunch of outstanding contenders for zerg-GOAT (eg. rogue, dark, soo, soulkey and serral) but none that is above all else. Only when it comes to Terran i feel comfortable to call Maru the terran-GOAT. (But i don't think/feel like there's a need to call Maru the terran-GOAT.) Last but not least i feel like serral deserves so much credit for his unbelievable achievement of breaking the korean rule over foreign-land Which by itself distinguishes him from all other players for now and all eternity. (and im such a korea fanboy... )toss-goat thread. Appreciate Serral response  Has he ever played as Protoss? I believe he was offracing Terran Let's appreciate Scarlett! Scarlett as the Protoss GOAT!if we're talking about herO v Trap then herO. Trap's boring, herO was entertaining most of his career if not all. | ||
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